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24 July 2008 - 08:22 PMWOW! That was paintfully; oops hold on I almost sliped off the ledge I was looking over and thinking of jumping off of. All joking aside, that was painful to read. I agree with most of it and disagree with most it if that is possible. The one thing that seems to be forgotten here is the hard work that has been done to make the league better. Althoug alot of the comments made are dead on some of them are completely out of conext and completely one sided. Everyone has had a bad call made. I am still PERTURBED that Michael Jordan pushed off Brian Russell in the NBA finals a few years back that cost the Utah Jazz a title. But that's another story. Anyways, I can site here and type all day about this topic and I proably won't change anyones opinions but I'll try by saying this.
This makes me laugh.............apples.............oranges
There will always be complaints about calls! There will always be complaints! Any time a law, rule anything is being enforced there are complaints. That's not what is be talked about in this thread. A ref is required to make judgement calls all day long. Did he feel the hit? Did he play on? Is that a hit or splatter? Those are subjective rules. What is being complained about here is the non-subjective calls. If I use your Basketball analogy.............a push off will always be subjective..........there is always contact and a foul is subjective! Now if in that instance the ref ran up to Brian Russell and said Strike 3 your out of the game that would be a closer analogy. We had a player called out on a rule that did not exist, and a head ref back it up. Is it just me or is there no real excuse for that? I am yet to hear the needing to use the restroom problem addressed...........does that sound at all like something that should have happened? Again the head ref clarified the "rule" and said she was not allowed to leave under any circumstances. I think someone owes those two players an apology for what happened in Oregon!
23 July 2008 - 07:33 PMI keep reading all these complaints about bad reffing when in reality, the complaint is about a player cheating. Put the blame where it belongs! The sad reality is, the only reason we need refs AT ALL is because our fellow players cheat. We all know the rules, if we followed them, we'd just need one field manager to say "OK, they have 8 in the box, you know what to do." and off to the 50 we go. Playing on? That isn't the refs bad, thats the player that is playing on. The ref might have missed the call, but the player still knows he was hit and chose not to do the right thing.
But, in the end, we do need refs because too many players cheat, and so we need good knowledgable refs. I thought our refs at IL SPPL tried very hard and didn't miss much. Could they have been better? Yeah, but they did fine, and what they missed the players, usually, caught. I know Failure To Flatline called some hits on themselves that cost them flag pulls when the ref didn't even see. At the same time, I shot a player in ghillie three times in the stomach as he ran and he didn't take the hit, and I had to get a ref involved. In the end, he said he didn't know he was hit, and I believe him, but we still had to have the ref make the call because I shot him, pulled the flag, then he shot me and pulled the flag. The ref made a decision and it stuck.
My team, the Heretics, have talked about reffing an SPPL regional, as a team. The difficulty is that there are only two games near us, and we need the points from both games. We aren't going to Tennessee, but the cost for us to drive to TN to ref the TN SPPL is just too much, though we would do the job for free. The cost of gas and food is prohibitive. Likewise, we can't show up to a game and have some of our guys ref while others play without having other teams calling foul. Until experienced players and teams can and will forego the points, we are stuck with what we have.
No..........that's just it.................it would have gone better for the most part without those refs. I think most of the teams that were there were very honorable. There were also alot of players there that did not know the rules at all. They didn't bother this year..............don't ask me why? Alot of them specifically told us they didn't bother reading the rules this year! That is one of the major disappointments and why ThirdI specifically started a topic about reading the rules!
23 July 2008 - 10:45 AMLOL...........and about that hopper thing.............those people weren't in my mind cheating..............yet still not even the head ref with the experience caught the hopper in play..............as a person who has reffed the SPPL..............I find this rule to be a waste of resources better spent elsewhere! Call it 15 BPS and check the people who by ear are shooting the fastest. It's really simple!
23 July 2008 - 10:42 AMPalerRider............if you notice my reffing complaints aren't I disagreed with the refs call. I could care less about that! I also realize your human and can't see everything. My complaints are purely based on not knowing the rules what-so-ever. If the ref on the football called a penalty for sliding you can imagine the response. The one that really ticked me off was not letting a player who was required to be at the staging area over half an hour early not let the young woman use the restroom half way through the game. I mean you say hydrate, hydrate, hydrate............we have people getting heat stroke and then tell them to hold it or we'll kick you out of the game an assess penalty points? Your right it's about common sense and making good judgements. When I was in training for a police officer I had to sit at a toplight for an hour and write down observed violations. Got 130 in an hour. Hmm.......should I stop everyone of those cars and force them to wait till I get there..............obviously not. The rules need to be interpreted by experienced refs and judged. Did that pack hit count as a playing on? Nah, I've been shot there and not felt it as well. Call him out and let him know why. But when 12 year old refs can't ref the game because they are casually getting hit with stray fire..............it's a complete lapse in reffing. My point being now 4 years in a row we are stilling seeing the same mistakes repeated.
If you want to make it interesting..........Krazy came up with an ingenious way to fix reffing and decisions on the field people were unhappy with..........however I think for that kind of money the SPPL can find willing people to ref and with a proper let's sit down and discuss the rules thoroughly meeting for 6 hours, because that's really how long it takes to sit down and absorb them!
You could always confuse the hell out of everyone and do what NASCAR did..........Actions Detrimental to the SPPL will result in penalties determined by the head ref and approved by the event coordinator. That will make you wonder whether to push the rules!
23 July 2008 - 12:47 AMOK, well this is how I look at it. I've brought alot of my issues up as Krazy has said in what I have felt the proper method was to do it. None of those methods have worked. So last year I joined in on PBN about the hopper rule. I have explained time and time again that it is totally unenforceable. No one can identify and verify whether a hopper has been altered and there is enough to do on the field for the refs! Things are hectic on the fields and you can add and change the rules all you want if you can't supply the people to enforce it there is no point. Like I said.......Jayson checked the hoppers before hand and we still caught 3 people with illegal combinations during our games. Did we call them on it and ask for the penalty? Nope, we informed them after the game they were in the wrong and they appeared to honestly not understand the hopper rules. I don't feel like they were trying to cheat, but at the same time they did violate the rules of the game. Was there an attempt to try and make the rule work...........well yeah...........Jayson wasted alot of his time trying to check the hoppers ahead of time........but obviously this rule simply does not work! Last year he said he would remove the rule...........so I left it at that............low and behold a month later I found out that he changed his mind and the entire PBN thread was edited. To make if funnier...........after the whole hopper debate........Yes Palerider I know this is your favorite topic............it turns out a large majority of the other teams was using modified battery packs in their Spyder hopper's................I heard it boosted the performance a bit I just laughed and smiled...........of course it did.
Now to those who say that the issue is the fields..........well some is and some isn't and I'm glad to hear PaleRider admitting that it is there responsibility as well. Realize that on average each of our team members spent over $500 per player to play. One of our players dropped $520 just on paint alone. If I average it at $600 per player on expenses with just our 15 players that's $9000.00 That doesn't include our support staff and their travel and everything else. I don't know about you but it seems to me like if we are spending 9K on a "professional" level tournament we should have some fairly high expectations! Now to put this into perspective, PSP events are $2850 for entry air and everything else, not to mention the teams in that category have major paint company backing. However they are getting
XBall Division 1
1st - $10,000
2nd - $5,000
3rd - $2,500
4th - $1,500
Obviously we aren't playing this game for the money and prizes!
To those who say well the league is still young and growing and changing. There is this old saying:
Fool me once shame on you!
Fool me twice shame on me!
Fool me three times.......?????
Fool me four times.........now I'm feeling like an idiot!
Four years is enough to decide if a President has done a good job and should spend another 4 years in office right?
How about this perspective.........I went to a steakhouse in Las Vegas earlier in the year that cost roughly $100 per person (Smith & Wellinski's or something like that) I had a horrible steak and paid alot for a little bowl of mashed potatoes. My steak was horrible! I've had better at Sizzler! Will I go back? Probably not and I've only been there once!
If it was a brand new steakhouse.........would you give it another shot? If you had two or three or even 4 horrible experiences with your steak would you go back?
Your brand new marker you just dropped a grand on is horribly inefficient and kicks like a mule. It also has a few blemishes. You send it to the manufacturer and ask for it to be fixed. You get it back and find out it's a little smoother but is still inefficient and still has blemishes. How many time do you send it back with little or no results before you tell the company where to stick that marker?
To Black Sheep:
I heard from a couple of our players you were yelled and screamed at again this year by a head ref. I'm not sure you knew that
Once again if you want to help yourselves and the SPPL sit down and thoroughly read the 20+ pages of rules and figure out what they mean. If the refs and all of the players had done this things might have been different?
Also to all of those willing to read through all of this..........the best thing you can do for any Scenario Producer or event promoter is to full address your concerns with them! If that doesn't work try posting up a thread and get others to agree. If that doesn't work kick them where it hurts! Their pocket book! (No, not their nuts that'll get you put in jail!)
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