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Heavy Weapons Teams Why are there rules limiting BPS and number of barrels?

#31 User is offline   T_DEVIL 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:31 AM

Hum? Interesting reading! Many of you have your own good points they may not be the main stream point of view but it is still a point of view! Many of you however have seemed to picked up a case of tunnel vision! Now STAY with me here! there's no reason to bring the ROF/BPS into this portion of the conversation and no reason to bring in the amount of weapons use IN REAL COMBAT! Allow me to explain; Most ppl have the misconception that a SCENARIO is a portayal of actuall COMBAT EVENTS! NOOOOOOOOOO! Not true! it is these type of themes that most scenarios are played under! reguardless of what your views are ALWAYS remember this! A scenario is a portayal of events base on a theme! PERIOD! Not combat, not realism, not the NO RULES IN WAR! or anything goes type mentality! I've been attending events for several years now everyting from the Band of brothers series to Sherq's swamp, from night of the Catman to the dukes of hazzard, The Walls of Troy was a blast but so was Oklahoma DDAY! Most of you may just be new to the SPORT yes I do believe it is a sport (since you need insurance for it) most of you have only addended the WAR like themes of Scenario's! and are under the impression that role playing means your a General or a Spy or a sniper, medic etc. etc. well it's not role playing is just that! PLAYING the role of a charactor in that particular theme! I am not here trying to preach at anyone nor AM I attempting to insult anyone. I am only trying to share my vast knowlede from all the many different types themes I've attended and played. So please don't get Tunnel vision and accept other ppls views as insight not hostility.
With that in mind I will close with this; Try a season of this SPPL league hopefully it will help you gain insight on the purpose of this League! If any body knows about milsim and the exact opposite! well that would be me! I've done 6 yrs in the U.S.M.C and my current team is the PSYCHO CLOWM POSSE! so trust me when I give advise, I have both sides of the spectrum from the reality to the fictional scenes of themes which are Scenario based. oh and my Hammer works just fine for me! :) as does my HORN! Honk! Honk!

ABANDON ALL HOPE!
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#32 User is offline   Lomarandil 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 12:05 PM

View Post**MayheM**, on Jan 22 2007, 09:46 AM, said:


But we could come close if we're going to use the term "scenario".

If it was called Fantasy Paintball Players League, I'd say do whatever you want.


Well, here we get into either renaming what thousands of players and companies have decided to call "scenarios", and what they have accepted as such, or changing your expectations of what a scenario is/should be... just a thought..

But I agree with T.. scenarios go from DDAY to the Christmas game I've heard about (grinches vs. Santa), with varying amounts of realism. And that is the way it should be, because that is a good part of how we have fun.

Lo

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#33 User is offline   empiregeneral 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 01:14 PM

View PostLomarandil, on Jan 22 2007, 11:05 AM, said:

View Post**MayheM**, on Jan 22 2007, 09:46 AM, said:


But we could come close if we're going to use the term "scenario".

If it was called Fantasy Paintball Players League, I'd say do whatever you want.


Well, here we get into either renaming what thousands of players and companies have decided to call "scenarios", and what they have accepted as such, or changing your expectations of what a scenario is/should be... just a thought..

But I agree with T.. scenarios go from DDAY to the Christmas game I've heard about (grinches vs. Santa), with varying amounts of realism. And that is the way it should be, because that is a good part of how we have fun.

Lo


We had an elves vs. grinches game, that was a blast. But yes as many have put it, a scenario is not neccesarily a "warlike" situation. It simply means that there is an overall theme and situation for the game, and themes can range from shrek (I believe that was what T_Devil was refering to) all the way to a blackhawk down scenario. It all depends on what you're in to. Personally I will play any scenario no matter what theme (within reason) just for the simple fact that I am still playing paintball, whether it be as an elf or as a member of a special forces group. It's all in the nature of the game.

This post has been edited by empiregeneral: 22 January 2007 - 01:15 PM

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#34 User is offline   controller 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:07 PM

Mayhem,

I believe you have a very close minded view of what this league is about. Firstly, this league is for Scenario Paintball Players. This is NOT a scenario. Should I say that again, NOT a scenario. And having played several dozen scenarios now, scenario paintball RARELY has any military conotations. Sure we get our D-Day games and what not, but I've played more of the Harry Potter, Mad Max, Star Wars, etc. etc. type of games. Sure I often refer to the FM 7-8 for tactics but when I play these games I'm not in any way confusing it with combat.

And I would like to re-iterate a statement many of us have said, play it before you knock it. You have absolutely NO experience with the league, so how could you possibly have such a well defined opinion of it?

Your total lack of respect for safety lends me to believe you are lacking in life experience and even if you are military you have not spent very much time in. Because if you had you would know that safety is crammed down our throats and you're definitely not a sissie to want to keep body parts and your life.
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#35 User is offline   euglow54 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 02:26 PM

View PostLegato, on Jan 21 2007, 07:46 AM, said:

when will people grasp that paintball isnt about realism, its about having fun and team play. If you want realism, join the armed forces or police. If you want fake realism, play airsoft. Paintball isnt about being realistic or jsut like the military. Far from it in fact. I dont see paintballs going on for a mile at 3000 fps. No, not even close. Nor do i see us using bullets and killing eachother. Last time i checked we shot paint. Leave the realism crap at the door. The sppl is about fair play, sportsmanship, and having a great time. Like i said, if you want real, join the army/marines/navy/air force. I play paintball to get away from my daily life and have fun with friends. Not to be militaristic and act like im a commando, sorry, dont see anyfun in that.

exactly buddy. People think woodsball is similar to military combat. It's not even close.
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#36 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:31 PM

View PostDdraiglais, on Jan 20 2007, 02:35 PM, said:

I was getting into the SPPL when reading the rules. Then I got to the part about limiting the number of barrels and BPS. That is unrealistic.

I waded through the thread, and nobody really addressed this.

The reason there's a rule against carrying multiple barrels on the field is pure safety.

Just for fun, if you have the gear available, chrony a paintgun of your own at around 285 FPS with the longest barrel you've got. Then without adjusting anything, replace it with the shortest barrel you've got. You'll see a DRAMATIC increase in the FPS of the short barrel shot.

If the rules allowed players to change barrels on the field, it would be a cheaters tool. You'd chrony in with your 18 inch barrel, then ditch it for the 10 incher until you had to chrony off. It's been done back "in the day". It sucked.

Just adding perspective.

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#37 User is offline   beaker 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:50 PM

I don't think he was talking about changing barrels, I think it was more about having more than two markers on a platform to make some sort of paintball mini-gun. He's basically wondering if he can have a 10 man team of millionaires, each with 6 A-5's operating off an automotive DIS system firing a cumulative 120 BPS and tearing flesh from bone.

This post has been edited by beaker: 22 January 2007 - 03:51 PM




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#38 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 04:43 PM

You're thinking WAY too small then. If we're taking open warfare with no holds barred, let's go big.

I want ultralights, grenades, and "Arc light" runs.

If we're going for 'realisim', can I just launch missiles with paint mortars in them too? I mean heck, if the money cap is off, let's just go all out!

If yer gonna dream, go big! I shouldn't post when I'm listening to "Dead Kennedys", should I?

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#39 User is offline   noobiekilla 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 05:06 PM

View PostTyger, on Jan 22 2007, 05:31 PM, said:

View PostDdraiglais, on Jan 20 2007, 02:35 PM, said:

I was getting into the SPPL when reading the rules. Then I got to the part about limiting the number of barrels and BPS. That is unrealistic.

I waded through the thread, and nobody really addressed this.

The reason there's a rule against carrying multiple barrels on the field is pure safety.

Just for fun, if you have the gear available, chrony a paintgun of your own at around 285 FPS with the longest barrel you've got. Then without adjusting anything, replace it with the shortest barrel you've got. You'll see a DRAMATIC increase in the FPS of the short barrel shot.

If the rules allowed players to change barrels on the field, it would be a cheaters tool. You'd chrony in with your 18 inch barrel, then ditch it for the 10 incher until you had to chrony off. It's been done back "in the day". It sucked.

Just adding perspective.

-Tyger

Didn't you do a test on this in your "tip clip" section on webdog?
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#40 User is offline   controller 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 05:58 PM

View PostTyger, on Jan 22 2007, 03:31 PM, said:

I waded through the thread, and nobody really addressed this.

The reason there's a rule against carrying multiple barrels on the field is pure safety.

Just for fun, if you have the gear available, chrony a paintgun of your own at around 285 FPS with the longest barrel you've got. Then without adjusting anything, replace it with the shortest barrel you've got. You'll see a DRAMATIC increase in the FPS of the short barrel shot.

If the rules allowed players to change barrels on the field, it would be a cheaters tool. You'd chrony in with your 18 inch barrel, then ditch it for the 10 incher until you had to chrony off. It's been done back "in the day". It sucked.

Just adding perspective.

-Tyger


ya I addressed this earlier in the thread. basically i think he's reffering to something like a DT, which is a legal marker in SPPL. but definitely a good point about not brining multiple barrels on the field. i really wasn't aware of that (so experience does mean something.... *clears throat* Mayhem)
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#41 User is offline   FullAutoPimp 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 06:28 PM

Listen MayheM, safety is the name of the game. We don't want people getting injured, and thus rules limiting ROF fire are put in place. It's not just about keeping a level playing field(which just happens to be an added benefit in my opinion), but also about safety. I'm sure that the players in this league could take getting hit with 30bps from close range, but we want to keep that out of paintball in general. Just look at the pro leagues, where over-shooting and cursing etc. are not punished harshly. Those leagues set examples for the rest of the paintball community, and put an overall negative outlook on our sport. I think it's great that specops is trying to create a league based more on honor and skill. If you want to simulate war and use your "ASP collapsible baton and seal sog pup fixed blade combat knife," than paintball is not for you. I'm not sure of any sport where they allow the kind of behavior you want, but we want to keep the image that we do allow that far away from paintball.
Edit- Sorry, I realize that this thread is getting off-topic, but I can't resist a good discussion.

This post has been edited by FullAutoPimp: 22 January 2007 - 06:37 PM

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#42 User is offline   Ddraiglais 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 06:44 AM

Sorry I haven't posted quicker. My keyboard died on me.

Tyger, I wasn't talking about having extra barrels to swap out. I know that could easily get painful. When I said multiple barrels I meant things like the Double Trouble, Triclops, Grinder, Trident, etc. If I ever hit the lotto, I am going to have the guys at Piper's Precision build me a paintball version of their M134. That's a six barrelled minigun.

As far as some of the other things you mentioned, I'd love to see stuff like that (if you could find a way to make it work) in bigger scenarios. I would be against them in a small ten man league. My take on the SPPL is similar to the TacTen. It appears to be based around a single squad. I don't see much use for missiles, bombers, tanks, etc in something that is suppose to mimick small unit tactics. Air support isn't usually available to individual squads.

I'm all for safety. I don't see how a high BPS goes against safety. You might get an extra welt or two, but that's life.

zWarlord, Sorry to hear about your experience. I have never seen something like that happen. As I've said before, I am an "outlaw" player. There are very limited rules when we play. BPS isn't one of them. On the flip side, we all act like adults (even my 9 and 11 year olds). Overshooting has never been a problem with us. It's called sportsmanship, fair play, etc; and it is basic stuff that they teach in kindergarten. Maybe I'm just expecting more from people than I should?

There are rules of war and the Geneva convention. The problem is is that militaries pick and choose which rules they will follow. Even the U.S. hasn't always followed all of the rules. This isn't the place to get into it further. I'll just leave it at that. I still don't view paintball as a sport. I don't see poker, billiards, darts, spelling bees, or a host of other things on ESPN as sports. I guess to each his own.

I appreciate all of the info that has been provided over the course of this thread. After everything has been said, I doubt that I'm interested. I will continue to search for something that I think fits me better.
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#43 User is offline   Ddraiglais 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 07:40 AM

View PostSpaceman Spiff, on Jan 22 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

First, everything you do is bound by rules. Driving - you have to follow the laws (if not you get a ticket or go to jail). Work - your employer tells you when to show up and when to leave (if you are selfemployed you get more choice but the customer will still demand their product in time). Life - you have to breath air (if you are human). Every sport and every league has rules. If you do not agree with the rules to the point that you cannot follow them you have two options: 1) break the rules and face the consequences or 2) start your own league.



If you want to start your own league with fewer/no rules be carefull about lawsuits. You also may not have much of an audience because people get tired of watching a pointless or nonregulated game, just look at the XFL (the football league that was started a few years ago to rival the NFL and had few rules).



Second, a scenario is not ment to be totally realistic. Ask those who do battle reinactment if they want to play with live fire. Even the military has rules and does not allow live fire in all of there training scenarios (that is why they have the guns with sensors). There are some live fire trainings but they have VERY specific rules for the soldiers to follow for their saftey.



View Post**MayheM**, on Jan 22 2007, 11:11 AM, said:

SCENARIO Paintball Player's League

"A scenario is also an account or synopsis of a projected course of action, events or situations."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Such as those that could develop on a battle field. Wow, who could've figured that one out???

In lite of this new information I suggest that if it's not about realism, CHANGE THE NAME.

And, by the way, I DID.




So, if you don't want rules go ahead and stick to outlaw games on outlaw fields with your friends who don't mind. If you want to play with more people and have a different challenge you will have to follow some rules.



I won't go there. I have other thoughts on rules and laws. I tend to disregard those that I don't care for. So far not much bad has happened to me. It's amazing what you can get away with in the Navy. :P In the Civilian World, you can always find a job that fits you better.

I don't have the money or time to start my own league. The XFL folded for one major reason, and it wasn't a lack of rules. The problem with the XFL was that they got second rate talent. I'm not knocking the guys that played in the league. They are better athletes than me. However, there is a reason they weren't in the NFL. That's why the USFL was semi-successful. They paid the money and got some of the top football players.

There is no way for a scenario to be totally realistic. That is more due to technology limitations than anything else. Paintballs won't do what bullets do. That doesn't mean that you can't try to make it as realistic as possible.

As I've said, I guess I'll stick to playing "outlaw" until I can find something that's a better fit.
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#44 User is offline   HK Phooey! 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 09:55 AM

Hey there,

Now I preface with the fact that I have not yet had the pleasure of playing an SPPL game, but I've woodsballed quite a bit both on organized fields. I also add that I am not a military veteran (constant love and respect for each of you who have served for us, btw), but I am an experienced martial artist and I can draw a parallel here that may make the existence of rules more clear.

My art consists of a lot of serious self defense, though we do occasionally compete in tournaments. I am at best an OK tourney competitor because there are limits on what I can do in the ring. But I know that a tournament is a game (though you can get your bell rung !) and I don't take it too seriously. If I get caught with a hook, it sucks but oh well....I lose the match.

My response to a similar attack meant to kill or maim me or my family in the outside world would be ENTIRELY different. That hook comes in for real, I am going to respond with the level of force and physical action that is well outside any tournament rules. I will not be competing with an assailant, I will defend myself, if necessary, with joint breaks, gouges, chokes, evasions, throws, nerve strikes, weapons (improvised or intended) to ensure that I can escape and be safe again.

I daresay (again with much respect and deference) that our soliders, marines, airmen/women, sailors, peace officers, security persons on this board will tell you the effect of "slow time" in real life and death combat. I have experienced it only twice in real life confrontations. It keeps you alive, but it drains you. I do NOT long to do it again. No sane person does. There is NO satisfaction for a sane person in harming or killing another person. Sadly, we do it, but most of us don't do it willingly or happily, unless again we are certifiably sociopathic.

Paintball is fun, it utilizes some combat related skills....but it is NOT combat. If it were, I would be able to lie in wait behind a tree with an ASP baton and KO a player, or trip and choke someone out. For me, violence is not a sport or a recreational activity.

Now, for those who are using paintball equipment to train for combat, the situation may be different, but likely more highly controlled and involving professional operators. That too is different than SPPL, scenario or woodsball.

As to ROF, give me three good shots to your 30 sprayed. I have heard dozens of stories of officers being shot at with full auto weapons....and missed by miles, after which the officers have taken out the shooters with one or two well placed shots. Look at my profile and you'll find a quote from my old rifle coach that sums up my ROF feelings:

"It aint the gun, its the nut behind the bolt." John Koob

Given the way this thread has gone, that is more true than ever.

Peace and Have Fun,

Ken / HKP ;)
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#45 User is offline   **MayheM** 

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 10:15 AM

View Postcontroller, on Jan 22 2007, 04:07 PM, said:

Mayhem,

I believe you have a very close minded view of what this league is about. Firstly, this league is for Scenario Paintball Players. This is NOT a scenario. Should I say that again, NOT a scenario. And having played several dozen scenarios now, scenario paintball RARELY has any military conotations. Sure we get our D-Day games and what not, but I've played more of the Harry Potter, Mad Max, Star Wars, etc. etc. type of games. Sure I often refer to the FM 7-8 for tactics but when I play these games I'm not in any way confusing it with combat.

And I would like to re-iterate a statement many of us have said, play it before you knock it. You have absolutely NO experience with the league, so how could you possibly have such a well defined opinion of it?

Your total lack of respect for safety lends me to believe you are lacking in life experience and even if you are military you have not spent very much time in. Because if you had you would know that safety is crammed down our throats and you're definitely not a sissie to want to keep body parts and your life.


All I ever said is that I don't like one rule that I HEARD about. I never said the whole league sucks and I won't play it 'cause of that rule. I can garantee you right now that if I did play the league and found it to be the funnest games EVER... I would STILL, not like that rule. And part of it I DO have to re-FARFIGNUGENS, after reading this:

View PostzWarlord, on Jan 22 2007, 12:19 AM, said:

I can tell you from personal experience why having rules governing ROF and overshooting. I have had my mask ripped of my head from being on the recieving end of a(very) long stream of paint from someone shooting way to fast (somewhere in the order of 27-30bps).


So maybe PART of that rule isn't so bad after all. But now that just gets me started on something else entirely. As I understand an A-5 is capable of firing 15 bps so now SpecOps makes the DT that does 30bps, but that's ripping people's masks off, and it's too inacurate to provide good supression fire. So you have to keep it down in the neighborhood of 15bps... So now what's the point! Why would you want to spend what-ever-grand on a dual mounted A-5 with superior firepower, when you can't even use it and you'd be better off just putting an E-grip on a sigle A-5!?!?!? Now the rule's starting to sound less lame and the gun's starting to look bad. Which is dissapointing 'cause I thought that gun was awesome when I first saw it.

I AM military, and I've been in longer than you think. And I've got ALOT more experience than you think, Boot. You're correct, safety IS crammed down our throats, but that doesn't make it right. Your excessive love for the military's safety programs demonstrates YOUR lack of experience. If you were a trained combatant and saw the things that I've seen the armed forces doing in the name of "safety" you'd know that it can be and IS taken to a DANGEROUSE excess. Here's what I mean. In order to be an effective watchstander, just a WATCHSTANDER mind you, one should be trained well enough to neutralize multiple, small, fast moving targets that are SHOOTING BACK. In order to train a watchstander to this standard, it is necessary to simulate these circumstances. But due to the enforcement of excessive safety policies, watchstander's aren't getting the training they need at our commands all over the world. I've been through watchstander training. I've been through lots of other training as I've served on several combat teams. But I started with watchstander training. I was issued a 9mm pistol, given one, big, not moving target. And allowed to fire a two round burst. 40 seconds later (approximately, it was probably longer) I was allowed to fire another two round burst, then reload, then fire another two round burst... and so on. All together I got about 16 rounds.

Now here's something that you SHOULD find disturbing: in order to learn a fine motor skill, like drawing a weapon, sighting in on a moving target, and shooting it. Or firing ACCURATELY at a target, then reloading, then sighting in on another target and firing ACCURATELY... to the point of PROFICIENCY...
(that basically means you can do it with your eyes closed on the range, which is necessary because in actual combat your abilities won't even be half of what they are on the range) requires approximately 2,000 REPETITIONS. 16 rounds at a stationary target, at close range, in bursts of two ISN'T NEARLY ENOUGH! And get this... most of the people who get this training, won't EVER get anything better! Just the same thing 6 or 7 times over the course of 4 YEARS is just about the standard. Which means, guess what... Someday a command will be attacked and it's growsly undertrained watchstander's won't be able to repel that attack without taking HEAVY CASUALTIES! In other words one day this excessivly SAFE training is going to cost ALOT OF PEOPLE THEIR LIVES!

So remember that, Boots. ONE DAY, THE MILITARY'S SAFETY WITCH YOU SEEM TO LOVE SO MUCH, JUST MIGHT GET YOU KILLED. I truly hope that doesn't happen kid. But it's an unfortunate possibility.

SAFETY IN TRAINING IS A NECESSITY but too much will get you killed just as fast as not enough.




That being said, I have to go back to work. BE BACK TOMMOROW...
**Mayhem**

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast"
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