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Heavy Weapons Teams Why are there rules limiting BPS and number of barrels?

#16 User is offline   naMrevOemaG 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 02:04 PM

View PostSeaspray, on Jan 21 2007, 02:33 PM, said:

I really don't feel like entering the "discussion" about paintball as a sport but I will say that I think people who use multiple barrels should be restricted on their BPS the same as everyone else, why? Well how many times have people been bonus balled with one barrel? All you have to do is multiply that by two and you could have some players seriously getting hurt... or even worse potential players being scared away!


well the big-guns, from my experience, only show up at scenarios; and even then they're doing supression most of the time, its kinda hard to get hit by those things, easy to spot.
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#17 User is offline   empiregeneral 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 02:16 PM

View PostDdraiglais, on Jan 21 2007, 11:48 AM, said:

Well said MayheM.

On fairness, I agree with MayheM. Playing against the rich people that had paintball guns that shot a gazillion balls per second would just make you better. You would have to find ways around that. In baseball the NY Yankees can afford any player they want. I don't see any rules banning pitchers that can throw 90 MPH fastballs or guys that hit 40 homers in a season. Other teams get what players they can afford and they play the game.

I disagree about paintball being a sport. It's fun. It's a great game, but I've never seen it as a sport. Most people outside of paintball don't see it as a sport either.

Paintball is not war, but it does simulate it. I understand paintballs cannot do the things that real bullets do (range, accuracy, etc), but it does mimick war to an extent. I was in the military. I have no plans on going back.

Actually, MaheM has a better understanding of what healthy competition is about. I've played sports most of my life. I've played against 6'6 guys in basketball and outrebounded them (I'm only 5'5). I've blocked 260 lb defensive linemen (I only go about 225). I beat "A" league racketball players when I wasn't even in a "C" league yet. What I'm getting at, is in every one of those instances I was at a disadvantage. I worked my tail off to overcome those disadvantages. If this league is going to ban certain types of equipment, then maybe it should ban anyone who is a good shot. Then it could ban anyone who can run really fast or is really good at hiding. Ghillie suits would have to go too. They are military looking and they give an advantage.

I guess I'll take you guys' advice and quit looking into this league. I will stick to the normal "outlaw" play that I do and keep looking for something that fits me better. I have been looking for something like the SPPL or tactical ten, but both come up a little short with the rules that they have.



Ever heard of salary caps? Bans on steroids, and there are restrictions on EQUIPMENT. Which is what we are talking about, they are not retricting how fast a player can be or how strong, how accurate. You can't use bats made out of certain materials in baseball, you can't carry brass knuckles in football or wear stilts in basketball. These are all restrictions on equipment just as the ones in the SPPL are. I don't agree with some of the rules in this country or in other sports, but I don't sit there and whine about it either. I adapt to it and move on, I find another way to have my own fun. Maybe you should do the same.

This post has been edited by empiregeneral: 21 January 2007 - 02:17 PM

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#18 User is offline   Lomarandil 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 02:23 PM

View PostnaMrevOemaG, on Jan 21 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

you sweat = its a sport
its on espn = definetely a sport


Poker is a sport? (cause I'd sure sweat if I had 20k at stake!)

Anyways..Bottom line is SPPL isn't meant to be entirely realistic, nor are most scenarios in general (PAV's anyone?). There are milsim leagues, which the Tac10 is more so, however, primarily, these are paintball leagues.. So there will never be complete accuracy.

Lo

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#19 User is offline   Krazy8 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 03:56 PM

View PostDdraiglais, on Jan 21 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

I guess I'll take you guys' advice and quit looking into this league. I will stick to the normal "outlaw" play that I do and keep looking for something that fits me better. I have been looking for something like the SPPL or tactical ten, but both come up a little short with the rules that they have.


You have no idea what you are missing then. You are letting a mere reading of writen rules bias your perceivedenjoyment of the SPPL. Too bad, it honestly is the most fun in the game right now...even with its downfalls.


View PostSeaspray, on Jan 21 2007, 02:33 PM, said:

I really don't feel like entering the "discussion" about paintball as a sport but I will say that I think people who use multiple barrels should be restricted on their BPS the same as everyone else, why? Well how many times have people been bonus balled with one barrel? All you have to do is multiply that by two and you could have some players seriously getting hurt... or even worse potential players being scared away!


Our DT rarely breaks the 15 bps limit....meaning he is firing 6 bps or less per gun. Our DT utilizes Flatline barrels and offers primary supressive fire during our matches.
We played against a team using two DT set ups last season...neither of those broke the 15 bps limit during their game.

Part of the problem is the design...the Firestorm Crank used to fire both guns makes it very hard to keep a stable firing platform at high bps. So if you are simply trying to scare the fluff out of the other team rage away!...But if you are trying to actually use accurate supression fire you must keep the bps rate lower to be effective.

Have no fear of a DT overshooting a player and hurting them...I have never seen it happen in all ofthe SPPL events I have attended.

Now the guy that really put me in my bunker wondering how to get out was Gys! He use two e-gripped A5's attached to a backpack feed system. He fired one in each hand and was bloody good at it! Yet even with his overwhelming firepower he still never overshot any one...including me when I failed miserablly on a bunker manuver.
The SPPL is about the players...and it brings out some of the most honorable ones around the country.

So don't worry about the overshooting....get out there and play the format....then tell me how bad it is!
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#20 User is offline   Da Ref 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 04:39 PM

My word I miss one day on the forum and people go crazy. To the people that think the rules are stupid and that outlaw is better that tells me a lot. If you go there because you don't want to play within the rules, Stay out of this league. Most of the rules are for safety. You want a challenge use a stock class or pump. Some of the fields I play I can only use a stock class. I dare say that I have seen DT's use as much as him and have only seen one case of overshoot, and that was due to the fact that he charge the DT's after he was eliminated and did not listen to the ref. As Krazy 8 said for the DT's to be effective they must fire at a lower rate. Before you ask I have been playing and reffing for over 20 years. This league is the most fun and challenge that a lot of players have seen in a long time. Check the comments from Smart Corps. We know that not everyone will be happy with the rules we put in place. They are for the greater good. I say come out and try it with an open mind. you may find what you are looking for.
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#21 User is offline   mattman 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 06:38 PM

View PostKrazy8, on Jan 21 2007, 05:56 PM, said:

....get out there and play the format....then tell me how bad it is!


I 2nd that!
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#22 User is offline   controller 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 09:53 PM

wow... i don't check the SPPL forum for a day and people go nuts. first off... play the league or at least attend an event before you offer your perception of how much the rules suck. i've played in nearly every position possible in SPPL ( player, commander, and ref). I am 100% sure that if you think the equipment rules are too restrictive you haven't even attempted playing them.

one comment that really bugged me was the idea that without alot of the rules teams that have financial backing will help the other teams improve their skills. after watching Smart Corps beat the snot out of every team they played I am pretty sure that a change in the rules is not necessary. I learned plenty just from watching Smart Corps and everyone that played against them and saw them learned plenty. No rule changes are needed in that arena.

this league was meant to be played by everyone and is not intended to block out the under financed teams that otherwise would be unable to partake in such an event. if you feel that blocking them out and becomming elitests is what's best for this league than just look around at PSP, NPPL...etc etc... this league want's to rise above the rest and promote sporstmanship and bring the fun back to the game...

i could go on for hours but i'm just rambling. have to wake up for PT. oh did I mention I am in the army and have served in Iraq... Paintball is not realistic... FYI...

This post has been edited by controller: 21 January 2007 - 09:54 PM

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#23 User is offline   zWarlord 

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Posted 21 January 2007 - 10:19 PM

I can tell you from personal experience why having rules governing ROF and overshooting. I have had my mask ripped of my head from being on the recieving end of a(very) long stream of paint from someone shooting way to fast (somewhere in the order of 27-30bps). I dont mind telling you that i was scared DOO DOOless cause i was on the ground looking through the mouth piece of my Event still being shot at. I will never play where rules like those are not in place and enforced, because it just isnt worth it.(I not that the ref's where i was playing saw it happen and did nothing for me or to the atacking player)
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#24 User is offline   beaker 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 03:57 AM

View Post**MayheM**, on Jan 21 2007, 05:31 AM, said:

View Postempiregeneral, on Jan 20 2007, 09:33 PM, said:

Paintball is a sport, not war. The whole point behind the SPPL is sportsmanship and a fair chance for any team to compete. Some teams can't afford double troubles and high end guns capable of 30 bps. The limit sets a level playing field for everyone putting more stress on tactics and teamwork rather than equipment and how thick your wallet is. And yes while I do love seeing a marker come onto a field that can shoot 30bps, It dosen't mean that I want to get shot with it. That is a lot of rounds hitting all within a few seconds, safety is a major concern.

...Competition isn't, wasn't, and will not ever be about fairness.


The only true way to test someone's skill is to have everyone using the same set of equipment. Competition isn't about fairness? Give me a break.

Here's the point:
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And here's your head, well below the point.

Mayhem said:

...And besides that, leveling the playing field does >>>NOT<<< put more stress on tactics. If your enemy walks on the field rockin' all the best double troubles, grenade launchers, and other cool stuff: THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN DEFEAT THEM IS BY USING BETTER TACTICS. You HAVE to come up with a better plan to beat the better equiped enemy which means if you win your victory will be that much cooler! AND because you have to be a better tactician to win this will make you a BETTER PAINTBALLER in the end. Everybody wins, the guys with cash (one of which I am NOT) get to play with their cool guns, and the guys without are honed into an overall better team!!!!


Double troubles, 'nade launchers and nerfies ARE allowed... did you read the rules?

Mayhem said:

...Pesonally if I see a double trouble on the field, I'm gonna pee my pants! But I'm not gonna ask for a lame assed rule banning them. I'm gonna play anyway, 'cause unlike some other paintballers I don't act like a seven-year-old girl. I'm gonna try to take the guy out anyway, and if I get hit... 30 times... in one second... at close range, 'cause I did something stupid and it didn't work... Oh well! I'll fall on the ground and whimper for a little bit. Then get up, limp to sidelines and nurse my welts for a little while... then GET BACK IN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Been there, done that from about 9 feet away(dog gone resurrection armbands ;))

The point is not to see how many times you can hit someone. If that were the case, a lot of new people including yourself wouldn't come back. It only takes one shot to eliminate a player. The show of force from a DT is for suppression, not elimination. I thought you were talking about tactics? I'm all for the occasional rant, but it really irritates me when there's one with no substantiating evidence. You can't judge something until you've tried it. So hold your tongue, play a qualifier, and then come back to this topic. Then see if you feel the same way and the rest of us will take you seriously.

This post has been edited by beaker: 22 January 2007 - 03:57 AM




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#25 User is offline   controller 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 08:26 AM

View Postbeaker, on Jan 22 2007, 03:57 AM, said:

So hold your tongue, play a qualifier, and then come back to this topic. Then see if you feel the same way and the rest of us will take you seriously.


thankyou! point well made!
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#26 User is offline   **MayheM** 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:11 AM

View PostLegato, on Jan 21 2007, 07:46 AM, said:

when will people grasp that paintball isnt about realism, its about having fun and team play. If you want realism, join the armed forces or police. If you want fake realism, play airsoft. Paintball isnt about being realistic or jsut like the military. Far from it in fact. I dont see paintballs going on for a mile at 3000 fps. No, not even close. Nor do i see us using bullets and killing eachother. Last time i checked we shot paint. Leave the realism crap at the door. The sppl is about fair play, sportsmanship, and having a great time. Like i said, if you want real, join the army/marines/navy/air force. I play paintball to get away from my daily life and have fun with friends. Not to be militaristic and act like im a commando, sorry, dont see anyfun in that.



SCENARIO Paintball Player's League

"A scenario is also an account or synopsis of a projected course of action, events or situations."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Such as those that could develop on a battle field. Wow, who could've figured that one out???

In lite of this new information I suggest that if it's not about realism, CHANGE THE NAME.

And, by the way, I DID.
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#27 User is offline   **MayheM** 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:24 AM

View Postempiregeneral, on Jan 21 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Quote

STOP BEING SUCH A SISSIE!!!!! Suck it up! Pretend to be half a man for once and go for it


First off, don't start insulting people as soon as they give an answer to YOUR question. You know absolutely nothing about me. I have no problem being shot, heck if I don't get shot during a day of play, I will have my friends light me up after a game so that I do get some welts. I however do care if it happens to my little brother or a newb out on the field for their first time as they probably won't come back if they get lit up their first time playing.

Again, PAINTBALL IS A SPORT. As Legato put it, if want realism, join the military. There is a time and a place for your Rambo idealism. Paintball is not it. If you don't like the way the league is played, don't play in it. Go have fun with your little buddies playing "war". While the rest of us enjoy an awesome sport. From what you have said, I see that you have no clue what healthy competition is all about. You're simply in it to win and that is not what the SPPL is about, yeah it would be an awesome feeling to win, but there is a reason that the sportsmanship prize is equal to first place. It's because sportsmanship, safety, HEATHLY competition, and making friends along the way are some of the best parts of paintball.


"I SAY LET 'EM BRING WHATEVER THEY WANT! AND I'LL TRY TO BEAT THEM. IF I DON'T IT'LL STILL BE FUN"
I'm in it just to win??? Maybe you should go back and read that post again kid.

I apologize for insulting you, if I do it again (and I might) don't take it so personally. I'm a little ruff around the edges, socially, because where I come from people sling insults at each other like they're asking the time of day. We don't take offense, and we all know that we're not really trying to tear eachother down. It's just the way we talk. That and when any one of us (myself included, which does happen sometimes) complains about things being "too hard" or "not fair" the rest jump all over him (again, myself included). Where I live and work we aknoledge that the world isn't fair and never expect very much fairness from any part of it, in fact we prefer to fight outmatched...

It's rightouse that you make sure you get shot, but it certainly sounded like you were saying that YOU don't wanna be hit by the DT. I understand wanting to protect younger siblings... so don't let them play games where a friggin' gattling gun might show up... until they're a little more experienced...

Other than that... SAFETY IS FOR SISSIES :P
**Mayhem**

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#28 User is offline   **MayheM** 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:46 AM

View PostJubei, on Jan 21 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

View Post**MayheM**, on Jan 20 2007, 06:33 PM, said:

So... ther's no rules to what you can have on the battle field.....



You've obviously never heard of the Rules of War, nor have you heard of the Geneva Convention. There are many limits on the types of weapons that you can use without being tried and subsequently hanged for war crimes. Weapons that cause "undue suffering and pain" are completely banned. I think hitting someone with upwards of 30 BPS fits neatly under the heading of undue pain.

Also, coming from the Marine Corps as a SAW gunner, I can tell you this for a fact. The M249G SAW fires 800 rounds per minute which comes in at just over 13 rounds per second. That's almost exactly what the limit is in most scenario games if not slightly lower. If you want to go into the whole "realism" argument, you're going to lose. Never have I seen a whole squad, or even a fire team, armed with SAWs or their equivalent.


I don't know about that statement, hold on... let me check the back of my Geneva Conventions Identification Card... booya. I also don't know about MANY rules. I do know of one that limits the caliber of weapons that can be used to neutralize enemy personel to .50 caliber and below. But I was never told (as a member of a Navy V.B.S.S. team and S.C.A.T.) I can't shoot someone with something because it fires too many rounds too fast. I'm pretty sure that'd just kill you faster and with less pain anyway.

Also I never said that a team SHOULD or WOULD be armed that way, maybe YOU should go back and re-read that post as well. I'm just saying that if someone were really dumb and wanted to do that for real they wouldn't encounter any rules to the contrary, and so it should be the same in the games if you're going to call it a scenario league.

And props for the service marine.


View PostDdraiglais, on Jan 21 2007, 02:48 PM, said:

Well said MayheM.

On fairness, I agree with MayheM. Playing against the rich people that had paintball guns that shot a gazillion balls per second would just make you better. You would have to find ways around that. In baseball the NY Yankees can afford any player they want. I don't see any rules banning pitchers that can throw 90 MPH fastballs or guys that hit 40 homers in a season. Other teams get what players they can afford and they play the game.

I disagree about paintball being a sport. It's fun. It's a great game, but I've never seen it as a sport. Most people outside of paintball don't see it as a sport either.

Paintball is not war, but it does simulate it. I understand paintballs cannot do the things that real bullets do (range, accuracy, etc), but it does mimick war to an extent. I was in the military. I have no plans on going back.

Actually, MaheM has a better understanding of what healthy competition is about. I've played sports most of my life. I've played against 6'6 guys in basketball and outrebounded them (I'm only 5'5). I've blocked 260 lb defensive linemen (I only go about 225). I beat "A" league racketball players when I wasn't even in a "C" league yet. What I'm getting at, is in every one of those instances I was at a disadvantage. I worked my tail off to overcome those disadvantages. If this league is going to ban certain types of equipment, then maybe it should ban anyone who is a good shot. Then it could ban anyone who can run really fast or is really good at hiding. Ghillie suits would have to go too. They are military looking and they give an advantage.

I guess I'll take you guys' advice and quit looking into this league. I will stick to the normal "outlaw" play that I do and keep looking for something that fits me better. I have been looking for something like the SPPL or tactical ten, but both come up a little short with the rules that they have.



All I can say is: Right on.

View PostnaMrevOemaG, on Jan 21 2007, 03:12 PM, said:

View PostDdraiglais, on Jan 21 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

Well said MayheM.

On fairness, I agree with MayheM. Playing against the rich people that had paintball guns that shot a gazillion balls per second would just make you better. You would have to find ways around that. In baseball the NY Yankees can afford any player they want. I don't see any rules banning pitchers that can throw 90 MPH fastballs or guys that hit 40 homers in a season. Other teams get what players they can afford and they play the game.

I disagree about paintball being a sport. It's fun. It's a great game, but I've never seen it as a sport. Most people outside of paintball don't see it as a sport either.

Paintball is not war, but it does simulate it. I understand paintballs cannot do the things that real bullets do (range, accuracy, etc), but it does mimick war to an extent. I was in the military. I have no plans on going back.

Actually, MaheM has a better understanding of what healthy competition is about. I've played sports most of my life. I've played against 6'6 guys in basketball and outrebounded them (I'm only 5'5). I've blocked 260 lb defensive linemen (I only go about 225). I beat "A" league racketball players when I wasn't even in a "C" league yet. What I'm getting at, is in every one of those instances I was at a disadvantage. I worked my tail off to overcome those disadvantages. If this league is going to ban certain types of equipment, then maybe it should ban anyone who is a good shot. Then it could ban anyone who can run really fast or is really good at hiding. Ghillie suits would have to go too. They are military looking and they give an advantage.

I guess I'll take you guys' advice and quit looking into this league. I will stick to the normal "outlaw" play that I do and keep looking for something that fits me better. I have been looking for something like the SPPL or tactical ten, but both come up a little short with the rules that they have.


you sweat = its a sport
its on espn = definetely a sport


ESPN plays whatever sells. They play skateboarding for example. Alot of dedicated skaters would get offended if you were to call their form of expression a sport.

I sweat when I sit on my couch and watch tv in a hot living room. Olympic chanel changing??? I think not.


View PostLomarandil, on Jan 21 2007, 04:23 PM, said:

View PostnaMrevOemaG, on Jan 21 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

you sweat = its a sport
its on espn = definetely a sport


Poker is a sport? (cause I'd sure sweat if I had 20k at stake!)

Anyways..Bottom line is SPPL isn't meant to be entirely realistic, nor are most scenarios in general (PAV's anyone?). There are milsim leagues, which the Tac10 is more so, however, primarily, these are paintball leagues.. So there will never be complete accuracy.

Lo


Good point!

But we could come close if we're going to use the term "scenario".

If it was called Fantasy Paintball Players League, I'd say do whatever you want.
**Mayhem**

"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast"
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#29 User is offline   Spaceman Spiff 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 10:37 AM

First, everything you do is bound by rules. Driving - you have to follow the laws (if not you get a ticket or go to jail). Work - your employer tells you when to show up and when to leave (if you are selfemployed you get more choice but the customer will still demand their product in time). Life - you have to breath air (if you are human). Every sport and every league has rules. If you do not agree with the rules to the point that you cannot follow them you have two options: 1) break the rules and face the consequences or 2) start your own league.



If you want to start your own league with fewer/no rules be carefull about lawsuits. You also may not have much of an audience because people get tired of watching a pointless or nonregulated game, just look at the XFL (the football league that was started a few years ago to rival the NFL and had few rules).



Second, a scenario is not ment to be totally realistic. Ask those who do battle reinactment if they want to play with live fire. Even the military has rules and does not allow live fire in all of there training scenarios (that is why they have the guns with sensors). There are some live fire trainings but they have VERY specific rules for the soldiers to follow for their saftey.



View Post**MayheM**, on Jan 22 2007, 11:11 AM, said:

SCENARIO Paintball Player's League

"A scenario is also an account or synopsis of a projected course of action, events or situations."
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Such as those that could develop on a battle field. Wow, who could've figured that one out???

In lite of this new information I suggest that if it's not about realism, CHANGE THE NAME.

And, by the way, I DID.




So, if you don't want rules go ahead and stick to outlaw games on outlaw fields with your friends who don't mind. If you want to play with more people and have a different challenge you will have to follow some rules.
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#30 User is offline   empiregeneral 

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:04 AM

Quote

SCENARIO Paintball Player's League


Scenario does not always mean real, scenario means something that could take place, for example, a paintball tournament...

Quote

SAFETY IS FOR SISSIES


If that's the way you think about, paintball may not be the right sport for you. One of the biggest ideals behind this amazing sport is Safety. So are yoiu telling me you don't wear goggles when playing? Is that one of your problems with the SPPL as well, that they require you to wear goggles? In case you didn't notice many peoples eyesight has been saved by goggles. Is being able to see for the rest of your life for sissies? If so I am one of the biggest sissies around, but hey, I'm not blind.

I personally have not played in the SPPL, that is why I don't argue with any of the rules or how it is set up, I am dying to get down to the Oregon qualifier this year so that I can finally check it out and see how I like it. Maybe you should do the same before you come and complain about the rules?

This post has been edited by empiregeneral: 22 January 2007 - 11:05 AM

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