Instead of making things a bigger pain in the DUMPER to read, I'm just going to go down the list of whats bold print. If you cant keep up then its your fault.
Muzzleloaders can only handle so much. There are different load outs and different types of muzzloader but thats comparing a .17 hornet and a .17HMR. Its still a .17. Again, its not like I would know much about them since thats the only gun people use around here for miles since rifles arent allowed.
Coincidentally, the two loadouts mentioned(.17's and muzzeloaders) have about the same effective range. "I have many times asked the American backwoodsman what was the most their best marksmen could do; they have constantly told me that an expert marksman, provided he can draw good & true sight, can hit the head of a man at 200 yards," ~ Col George Hanger.
Though the quote was before the term sniper came about, historians consider most of the marksmen referred to as snipers.
Sniping had been around in other countries for many years. How do you think we were getting our DUMPER kicked in Nam in the first place.
Not talking about paintball, talking about realitive range. So if an assault rifle shoots 500 and your shooting at 600, you dont have much of an advantage. That was the point, thanks for dodging it.
War is war. You dont pit one thign against another, that would be too fair. You have to consider all the different angles. Sure they have the infrantry beat, but whats keeping them alive from everything else? The infrantry can pull out their tricks as well, so what keep them alive? Its skill THAT sir, is the point you are missing.
Of course he had a scope, do you know how hard it is to see lil kids on bikes from a 1000, let alone hit them. I brought up that point to refer to it later and to point out, who normally uses machine guns? Thats right, infrantry and their support. They have the same range as a sniper when you consider all the factors. Afterall, this is war.
If your just trying to say that you have to shoot far then you have to consider range is realitie. A logn range shot with a bow is 50yrds. A long range shot with a muzzleloader and shotgun is 200yrds. A long range shot for a .223 is 500yrds A longe range shot for a .308 is about 800. A long range shot for a .50 is 1000+. Range is realitive.
Again, muzzeloaders and their tolerance. Refer to first response and local gunsmiths. Or the history channel once they get on their patriotic streak. They had a whole section on muzzleloaders back in the day. The Military had a nice progression of rifles as well and showed muzzeloaders in detail. So nice of you to skip over all the middle section there. In any case, if you had one, that would only explain muzzeloaders.
Alright, then you'd agree, that range isnt all there is too it. Afterall, you didnt deny my arguement. That ought to put your whole 'range' bit to rest, but it won't so I'll continue. Moreso, your missing an indirect point you see. As rounds keep getting better and better, the range will get longer and longer. Since snipers of old arent shootin far for todays standards, then that means they arent snipers according to you. When lasers from space are able to take down targets, does that mean when somone has to shoot somone through a window or stalk that their not snipers anymore because they dont have the range? According to you, yes because thats all that matters. However, its not. Range is realitive and its only a mere tool in the aresenal we have to choose from. The two most powerful weapons I
, and other sniprs have, is patience and time. Whether they be paintball snipers, SWAT snipers, hunters, or Mil snipers.
Alright so if you paid attention to the history and how sniping is ▒ hunting in a sense. Hunting the ultimate game with all odds against you. Which is why they do more 'scouting' than 'hunting'. Literally and metaphorically speaking.
We are adopting it into the paintball world. For almost as long as snipers have had an actual range advantage, PAINTBALL snipers have been associated with paintball(hmm). It hasnt changed because no one has tryed to change it. Paintball changed it 20yrs ago.
Again, just pointing out how sniping is loosely based on hunting. And setting up a point to end the paragraph, that you also managed to skip.
Oh, we're still on the range thing again. Its all relative man.
Well since you dont think I research enough let me inform you on a little group of snipers in WWII. There was about 12 of them if memory serves. Half of them were Indians. All of them were just guys who were asked if they were a good shot and were given a rifle with a scope. They could use them of course but they chose not to. Proud of their heritage they used tomohawks. They would wait for a Jerry to come by, sever his spine, and scalp him as a souvenir. They would cover each other with their excellent shots of course, but they never really had to. The best part of it is they would use the bodies as bait. Scalp them and then leave them leaning against a tree or somthing like that. Since they were dead to rights it wouldnt make a sound. So next thing you know Jerry's buddy is lookin for him and they get him as well. This was only on the rear guard guys since the German's were fallin back so they had some leeway. However, id you bring a tomohawk to a gun fight you know what your doing. Which is the major point your missing. Its not WHAT you do its HOW you do it. If somone were to sit in a spot with a .50 in Iraq and just wait for people to get into their crosshair and shoot, is that sniping? No, and Mr. Hathcock would agree. Sniping is a fieldcraft. If you have time for arts and crafts, then your not doing a field craft. Refer to the time he took out the high ranking official. Did he just sit on his bum and shoot at him from way out yonder? Hardly.
Last but not least, SWAT snipers. Unlike what you see in movies, swat snipers get very close. So close in fact they have two rifles. Their 'tac' rifle, and their 'work' rifle. Those work rifles are .22's. They get close enough to take out dogs, lamps, etc. in support for swat teams. .22's arent that accurate in the LR cartridge so you'd have to be pretty close. I know 100yrds is pushing it to take a coyote with my mag, 75 is effective. So i'd give the .22LR 50yrds. Coincidentally, thats about where the SWAT/Police snipers set up. Sure they can set up on buildings, but since cities make up on a small percentage of the land mass, they normally just get close for a better shot. Not to mention in high risk situations its nice to know that even though your at 50yrds, you can get a 1/4MOA with the rifle your using. Thats not long range though, so I guess their not snipers. I'll go let the SWAT team know they need to forget those patches . . . Fifty yards, those are nice double taps for gog's. Wish I had my flattie somtimes so I wouldnt need the extra tap.
Lets also refer to this thread . . .
If we arent paintball snipers, then what kind of gear are you lookin for in a paintball forum?
Oh thats right, trying to stir. Ask a question you dont want answered, thats like saying you died and then just 'j/k' just to see what people would do. You havnt STARTED an arguement, I'll give you that though.
Honestly though, to everyone, if you dont like the term sniper then dont post in the forum. There are plenty of other positions and since you see the sniper as insignifigant then you could just go to another forum and post. If its just the name that bothers you, thats just silly. Thats like getting Sunny-D to change its name to Sunny-C6H12O6 because it has more sugar than Vitamin D. Some people think the D stands for the vitamin associated with the sun, others think its delight. Six and half dozen to another. It doesnt really matter.
This post has been edited by ghostinthewood: 22 December 2006 - 12:57 PM
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