[I.K.E.]

Why in the world would anyone want to deny the existence of snipers in paintball? Foolishness! The point of any position on any team is to have fun. And the part of the fun of the paintball sniper is the fantasizing in the process. You may not do it the way the REAL snipers do, but that is because you can't. REAL SNIPERS KILL PEOPLE. Do paintball snipers want to kill people? NO. I don't think so. Do paintball snipers emulate skills of real snipers to enhance their game? YES. Absolutely. They won't ever fit the exact model of real snipers. THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. If they DO, THEY'LL KILL SOMEONE. The best they can do is borrow from the sniper handbook, and make those tactics stretch to fit into paintball.

EXPLICATIVE! Next thing you know they'll be saying there's no such thing as team commanders! I mean, honestly, commanders can't exist in paintball because no one HAS to listen to anyone else! Can't FORCE you to follow orders! No commanders in THIS game! IMPOSSIBLE!

[Warpaint]

I.K.E., on 23 April 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

Why in the world would anyone want to deny the existence of snipers in paintball? Foolishness! The point of any position on any team is to have fun. And the part of the fun of the paintball sniper is the fantasizing in the process. You may not do it the way the REAL snipers do, but that is because you can't. REAL SNIPERS KILL PEOPLE. Do paintball snipers want to kill people? NO. I don't think so. Do paintball snipers emulate skills of real snipers to enhance their game? YES. Absolutely. They won't ever fit the exact model of real snipers. THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. If they DO, THEY'LL KILL SOMEONE. The best they can do is borrow from the sniper handbook, and make those tactics stretch to fit into paintball.

EXPLICATIVE! Next thing you know they'll be saying there's no such thing as team commanders! I mean, honestly, commanders can't exist in paintball because no one HAS to listen to anyone else! Can't FORCE you to follow orders! No commanders in THIS game! IMPOSSIBLE!

I think everyone who plays paintball is "pretending" to be something...some see themselves as warriors, gods, undefeatable, superior, heroes, soldiers, pros, experts, prodigies, etc....to deny the existence of one "pretend" position is to deny the existence of all. Some positions require more pretending, suspension of belief, or self-convincing than others, but that's all part of playing a game and competing...a relatively harmless version of human's favorite conquest based pass-time...war.

[aslanprime]

Just to play devil's advocate (although I do believe a "version" of a sniper absolutely exists in this sport/activity)...

There are two "issues" with a "paintball sniper":

1) A sniper is about concealment and long range accuracy. And while snipers can wear camo or guille and hide in a bush, the long range accuracy is just not possible. There is very little difference from marker to marker when they are shooting the same paint at the same fps. A longer barrel, or a flatline, or a rifled barrel, or a better marker...sure, you'll get a very marginal increase in accuracy...but VERY marginal. Without that "long range accuracy", a "paintball sniper" is nothing more than a "camper".

2) I hear a lot of newbies talk about being a sniper and the problem with that is I think it slows their development. They need to be learning about flanking, advancing, and using cover and angles. They need to learn how to be aggressive, but safely aggressive. Instead, they say "I'm playing sniper" and they sit behind a bunker or a tree and just lay there while the opposing team pushes their way forward or around them. Then they get shot out. And many times when I hear these newbs say this, it's not because they want the "glory" of being a sniper, it's because they're afraid or feel outgunned at leading the charge or getting involved in the action...which is a crucial part of paintball player development.

[I.K.E.]

Warpaint, on 23 April 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

I.K.E., on 23 April 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

Why in the world would anyone want to deny the existence of snipers in paintball? Foolishness! The point of any position on any team is to have fun. And the part of the fun of the paintball sniper is the fantasizing in the process. You may not do it the way the REAL snipers do, but that is because you can't. REAL SNIPERS KILL PEOPLE. Do paintball snipers want to kill people? NO. I don't think so. Do paintball snipers emulate skills of real snipers to enhance their game? YES. Absolutely. They won't ever fit the exact model of real snipers. THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. If they DO, THEY'LL KILL SOMEONE. The best they can do is borrow from the sniper handbook, and make those tactics stretch to fit into paintball.

EXPLICATIVE! Next thing you know they'll be saying there's no such thing as team commanders! I mean, honestly, commanders can't exist in paintball because no one HAS to listen to anyone else! Can't FORCE you to follow orders! No commanders in THIS game! IMPOSSIBLE!

I think everyone who plays paintball is "pretending" to be something...some see themselves as warriors, gods, undefeatable, superior, heroes, soldiers, pros, experts, prodigies, etc....to deny the existence of one "pretend" position is to deny the existence of all. Some positions require more pretending, suspension of belief, or self-convincing than others, but that's all part of playing a game and competing...a relatively harmless version of human's favorite conquest based pass-time...war.

If this means you basically agree with me, then great! Either way I like what you said.

[aslanprime]

Warpaint, on 23 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

I think everyone who plays paintball is "pretending" to be something...some see themselves as warriors, gods, undefeatable, superior, heroes, soldiers, pros, experts, prodigies, etc....to deny the existence of one "pretend" position is to deny the existence of all. Some positions require more pretending, suspension of belief, or self-convincing than others, but that's all part of playing a game and competing...a relatively harmless version of human's favorite conquest based pass-time...war.

They can pretend to be little fairys too...with wings and tights and fancy skirts. And they can run around the field casting spells on everyone. People can "pretend" all they want...but when I laugh at them and point out that they are idiots...I feel I am entitled to that opinion.

[Warpaint]

aslanprime, on 23 April 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate (although I do believe a "version" of a sniper absolutely exists in this sport/activity)...

There are two "issues" with a "paintball sniper":

1) A sniper is about concealment and long range accuracy.

That is a common misconception. Distance is an element of concealment, as is wearing a ghillie or other camouflage. People may question that, but think about why snipers distance themselves from their targets...it is to avoid detection. Sniping is a guerilla combat technique used to engage the enemy.

And while snipers can wear camo or guille and hide in a bush, the long range accuracy is just not possible.

Accuracy and long range are relative terms. Don't forget, there have been some recent advances in both paintball design and marker technology that favor the sniper position.

There is very little difference from marker to marker when they are shooting the same paint at the same fps. A longer barrel, or a flatline, or a rifled barrel, or a better marker...sure, you'll get a very marginal increase in accuracy...but VERY marginal. Without that "long range accuracy", a "paintball sniper" is nothing more than a "camper".

Well, the distance isn't marginal with a flatline, although a flatline and the alternative apex exchanges accuracy for distance. Straight rifled barrels eliminate spin, and enhance accuracy, but these also take off a little distance. I apologize for forgetting the name of it, but there is a new paintball that effectively enhances both distance and accuracy, albeit a little pricey. However, if these work as well as claimed, the cost per elimination is probably very reasonable compared to regular paint eliminations. A sniper and a camper are not the same thing. A sniper is an active field element....a camper is not.

2) I hear a lot of newbies talk about being a sniper and the problem with that is I think it slows their development. They need to be learning about flanking, advancing, and using cover and angles. They need to learn how to be aggressive, but safely aggressive. Instead, they say "I'm playing sniper" and they sit behind a bunker or a tree and just lay there while the opposing team pushes their way forward or around them. Then they get shot out. And many times when I hear these newbs say this, it's not because they want the "glory" of being a sniper, it's because they're afraid or feel outgunned at leading the charge or getting involved in the action...which is a crucial part of paintball player development.

I don't know if it slows their development, but it sure can discourage them when their expectations are not aligned with "reality". The realities of paintball technology are an argument for more effective camouflage techniques, and in many cases, a different "combat" tactic, but not near as impossible as people think. Again, most people disagree with the sniper concept because they have an incorrect understanding of the position or the tactic. Many soldiers in the middle east have been "sniped" by combatants from less than 100 feet, and with weapons not particularly values for having great accuracy.

I.K.E., on 24 April 2011 - 11:10 PM, said:

Warpaint, on 23 April 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

I.K.E., on 23 April 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

Why in the world would anyone want to deny the existence of snipers in paintball? Foolishness! The point of any position on any team is to have fun. And the part of the fun of the paintball sniper is the fantasizing in the process. You may not do it the way the REAL snipers do, but that is because you can't. REAL SNIPERS KILL PEOPLE. Do paintball snipers want to kill people? NO. I don't think so. Do paintball snipers emulate skills of real snipers to enhance their game? YES. Absolutely. They won't ever fit the exact model of real snipers. THEY'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO. If they DO, THEY'LL KILL SOMEONE. The best they can do is borrow from the sniper handbook, and make those tactics stretch to fit into paintball.

EXPLICATIVE! Next thing you know they'll be saying there's no such thing as team commanders! I mean, honestly, commanders can't exist in paintball because no one HAS to listen to anyone else! Can't FORCE you to follow orders! No commanders in THIS game! IMPOSSIBLE!

I think everyone who plays paintball is "pretending" to be something...some see themselves as warriors, gods, undefeatable, superior, heroes, soldiers, pros, experts, prodigies, etc....to deny the existence of one "pretend" position is to deny the existence of all. Some positions require more pretending, suspension of belief, or self-convincing than others, but that's all part of playing a game and competing...a relatively harmless version of human's favorite conquest based pass-time...war.

If this means you basically agree with me, then great! Either way I like what you said.

Yes, I think we agree in concept. I think the position is misunderstood, and used when other options male more sense, but if people are willing to improvise their games a bit, it can add an exciting element to the game of paintball, expecially scenario.

aslanprime, on 25 April 2011 - 03:39 PM, said:

Warpaint, on 23 April 2011 - 12:09 PM, said:

I think everyone who plays paintball is "pretending" to be something...some see themselves as warriors, gods, undefeatable, superior, heroes, soldiers, pros, experts, prodigies, etc....to deny the existence of one "pretend" position is to deny the existence of all. Some positions require more pretending, suspension of belief, or self-convincing than others, but that's all part of playing a game and competing...a relatively harmless version of human's favorite conquest based pass-time...war.

They can pretend to be little fairys too...with wings and tights and fancy skirts. And they can run around the field casting spells on everyone. People can "pretend" all they want...but when I laugh at them and point out that they are idiots...I feel I am entitled to that opinion.

Well, pretending to be a fairy may be your idea of fun and fantasy, but that's not my bag. Actually, I did see someone dressed as Peter Pan once at a scenario, but alas, no Tinkerbell. I have no issue with your fantasy, so long as you keep your little fairy wand and pixie dust to yourself.

[cdrinkh20]

Actually, rifled barrels were shown to do absolutely nothing (and perhaps hurt?) paintball accuracy - can't do much with inconsistently sized/filled/shaped gelatin balls.

The "First Strike" rounds are what I think you were referring to though... and yes, from what I've seen they have been shown to go a fair bit further than normal paintballs, more accurately. Tiberius' (Lapco-made?) rifled barrels sized for FS fins were also shown in preliminary trials to be more accurate with FS rounds than regular Tiberius barrels.

As for Flatline/Apex... I hear a lot of good stuff about Apex, but I can attest that Flatlines have TERRIBLE accuracy. Even at medium range. Paintballs are just too inconsistent to make that barrel consistent.

[Warpaint]

cdrinkh20, on 25 April 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Actually, rifled barrels were shown to do absolutely nothing (and perhaps hurt?) paintball accuracy - can't do much with inconsistently sized/filled/shaped gelatin balls.

Well, I own a straight-rifled barrel, and my experience is that it eliminates spin, which enhances accuracy, but reduces distance. A spiral-rifled barrel seems to make accuracy worse with paintballs. No one I've shot with my straight-rifled barrel has complained about more pain....the FPS was not increased.

The "First Strike" rounds are what I think you were referring to though... and yes, from what I've seen they have been shown to go a fair bit further than normal paintballs, more accurately. Tiberius' (Lapco-made?) rifled barrels sized for FS fins were also shown in preliminary trials to be more accurate with FS rounds than regular Tiberius barrels.

First Strike is the name of the product I was thinking of, thank you.

As for Flatline/Apex... I hear a lot of good stuff about Apex, but I can attest that Flatlines have TERRIBLE accuracy. Even at medium range. Paintballs are just too inconsistent to make that barrel consistent.

Pretty consistent with what I've heard, Apex being the better product.

[cdrinkh20]

Ah, I missed "straight-rifled", my bad. Though it seems like a rather pointless way to rifle something... I don't see how they reduce spin, per say. No more so than a tighter bore might.

As for spiral rifled, I believe I read one site that said they spun a barrel (or something) to 3000 rpm and still got very little spin on the paintball (not enough for effective rifling effect, anyways). Crushed my poor work-friend's dream of making a ball-bearing/motorized spinning barrel hahaha.

This post has been edited by cdrinkh20: 25 April 2011 - 06:52 PM

[Warpaint]

cdrinkh20, on 25 April 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

Ah, I missed "straight-rifled", my bad. Though it seems like a rather pointless way to rifle something... I don't see how they reduce spin, per say. No more so than a tighter bore might.

Like I said, it did reduce spin. This is most visible when using paintballs that have differently colored hemispheres. The rifling is straight with the length of the barrel.

As for spiral rifled, I believe I read one site that said they spun a barrel (or something) to 3000 rpm and still got very little spin on the paintball (not enough for effective rifling effect, anyways). Crushed my poor work-friend's dream of making a ball-bearing/motorized spinning barrel hahaha.

The liquid in the ball does not spin at same rate as the casing...kind of like if you turn a glass of water quickly...the water may slosh, but it doesn't really turn much. If the liquid in the ball was to slosh, it would be detrimental to the trajectory...I think it kind of has a countering effect to the spin when you try to add more spin. It's like spinning a raw egg...try it!

[cdrinkh20]

Though you can hardly turn a glass in your hand at that speed

I do believe they got it to spin more than with less RPM, but obviously the liquid fill ruins it. Makes me wonder how FS rounds work - presumably a liquid fill that leaves no air, but I've never held or seen them in person.

[Warpaint]

cdrinkh20, on 25 April 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

Though you can hardly turn a glass in your hand at that speed

I do believe they got it to spin more than with less RPM, but obviously the liquid fill ruins it. Makes me wonder how FS rounds work - presumably a liquid fill that leaves no air, but I've never held or seen them in person.

Try spinning a raw egg on it's fat end...the liquid inside counters the spin placed on the shell, and it merely wobbles.

[Lt.Col.Vortex]

Warpaint, on 25 April 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

cdrinkh20, on 25 April 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

Though you can hardly turn a glass in your hand at that speed

I do believe they got it to spin more than with less RPM, but obviously the liquid fill ruins it. Makes me wonder how FS rounds work - presumably a liquid fill that leaves no air, but I've never held or seen them in person.

Try spinning a raw egg on it's fat end...the liquid inside counters the spin placed on the shell, and it merely wobbles.

True, but to counter that effect, boil the egg. The egg turn hard and it spins better. This is also how you tell a good egg from a bad egg.
Dont know if you all know, but hears a paintball snipers forum, should answer most of your questions. http://snipertalk.proboards.com

[Maverick_07]

In regards to straight rifled barrels I have this to say. My friend's marker, a Miltec MT-65 came stock with a 16" straight rifled barrel. Needless to say it shot where ever you placed the sights at 100 feet, and I've never seen it miss a target...the only problem is that this gun no longer works due to a manufacturing flaw in the air system that we cannot figure out. We have taken it to various people and experts and nobody can figure out what's wrong with it...On the plus side, it fulfilled it's duty before it died and shot this really cocky player in the neck...it die din peace... ^_^

[Warpaint]

Jack the Ripper, on 25 April 2011 - 10:23 PM, said:

Warpaint, on 25 April 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

cdrinkh20, on 25 April 2011 - 10:15 PM, said:

Though you can hardly turn a glass in your hand at that speed

I do believe they got it to spin more than with less RPM, but obviously the liquid fill ruins it. Makes me wonder how FS rounds work - presumably a liquid fill that leaves no air, but I've never held or seen them in person.

Try spinning a raw egg on it's fat end...the liquid inside counters the spin placed on the shell, and it merely wobbles.

True, but to counter that effect, boil the egg. The egg turn hard and it spins better. This is also how you tell a good egg from a bad egg.
Dont know if you all know, but hears a paintball snipers forum, should answer most of your questions. http://snipertalk.proboards.com

But a boiled egg has a solid interior which does not simulate a paintball interior. It's how you tell a boiled egg from a raw egg...raw eggs don't spin.