Special Ops Paintball: How to get maximum distance - Special Ops Paintball

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How to get maximum distance legally! Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#46 User is offline   snyper06 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 11:11 PM

View PostHOTS, on Jan 31 2006, 05:59 PM, said:

Of course a rifled barrel helps, look what it did for the musket.
The people that invent bullet shaped paintballs will win the distance
question hands down!


wrong, have u evr looked at a bullet? evr see the bumps on the sides of the actual bullet above the shell? thats what gives it the spin to do that with paintball wud cost so much $$$, makin paintball bullets they wud have to have shells (waste of materials and differtent feeding mechanisems) all new barrels, and making the paintball hav the grooves so they could get spin, which they wud probly flaten out or chip before it could get spin.


going on to the heavier paintballs, wut would be like the top 3 heaviest types of paint? im interested in trying this out
I'd rather throw paint than shoot a tippmann

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#47 User is offline   I cant pick a proper name 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 04:31 PM

Okay if u read my post i said it would have more momentum so your not saying anything that i didn't by this

"Momentum is "mass in motion". Mass being how much "stuff" is in an object. And if you follow a simple scientific formula of Momentum = mass * velocity, then we have my proof."

You treat travel in the x and y direction differently.

Travel in the x is affected only by the formula vt = d

Now i assume we can all agree that things with different masses shaped the exact same (therefore same air resistance) would take the same amount of time to fall right?
That is your y component and they are both equal because they are both fired at the same angle and take the same amount of time to fall.

Therefore they will hit the ground at the same time, one with more force (the heavier) and one with less force but the same distance!

Now if you want a paintball to break on someone from farther away then yes the heavier would be better because at the same distance it will have more momentum. The more momentum the more it will want to travel "through" the person and the more likely it will break.

However, actual distance before hitting the ground would be the exact same. momentum doesn't affect how long it takes to hit the ground it only affects how fast its going when it gets there.
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#48 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 06:05 PM

View PostWTF!, on Mar 20 2006, 05:31 PM, said:

Travel in the x is affected only by the formula vt = d

Now i assume we can all agree that things with different masses shaped the exact same (therefore same air resistance) would take the same amount of time to fall right?
That is your y component and they are both equal because they are both fired at the same angle and take the same amount of time to fall.

Therefore they will hit the ground at the same time, one with more force (the heavier) and one with less force but the same distance!


Galileo's theory works, except you're forgetting something.

The fact is gravity works the same on all objects. Fine. What you're either ignoring or forgetting is that the +mass ball has MORE ENERGY in it when it's launched. So, yes, it falls at the same rate BUT the +mass ball goes further with more energy put on the ball from accelleration.

It takes MORE AIR to shoot a +mass ball at the same FPS as a -mass ball. More compressed air = more energy. More energy means the +mass ball travels FURTHER before hitting the ground. SIMPLE MOMENTUM AND INERTIA. The harder you push something, the further it goes. Flick a marble. Then really throw one. Which goes further? You are forgetting that energy can not be created nor destroyed, so that energy has to go somewhere. It goes into the distance the ball travels before hitting the ground.

Ok, let's go to "Mythbusters" episode where they filled footballs with helium and with normal air. The helium balls did not have more air time, but they also SHORTER than the normal, heavier balls. And... why? MOMENTUM! More energy put into the ball, the ball goes further. You have to push a +mass ball harder, it has more momentum, the +mass ball goes FURTHER. No, really, it's that simple. This is "Bill Nye" science here! This has nothing to do with air resistance, or Galileo or "heavy and light fall at the same rate."

It's energy transfer. More push = more distance. That simple. No, seriously. That's all it is. MORE ENERGY = MORE TRAVEL. If I launch a ball bearing of .68 caliber at 300 FPS will it go further than a paintball at 300 FPS? YES!!! Takes more push to launch a steel ball than a paintball. Same idea. And, yes, it's noticable in paintball ranges.

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#49 User is offline   famousgamer 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 06:50 PM

Every single scenario feild i have ever played on required me to use their paint. You can walk onto hardly any woods feild with your own paint. Knowing this, it makes no difference whether the paint is light or heavy.

We all know a Flatline or Apex with give you "flat trajectory" while simply aiming up does not. It is that flat trajectory that makes for a better ranged shot, as opposed to simply aiming up. You can also use the sights on your gun for longer shots with a backspun ball, as you get that extra flat range.

You do sacrifice accuracy with the backspinning balls. You DEFINITLEY sacrifice accuracy while "lobbing". Ill stick with the Apex thanks, as it gives me the option for an accurate short shot, or innacurate long shots with flat trajetory and the option to use my sight.

This post has been edited by famousgamer: 20 March 2006 - 06:52 PM

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#50 User is offline   I cant pick a proper name 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 07:26 PM

"Flick a marble. Then really throw one. Which goes further?"

The thrown marble goes further because it is travelling faster VT = D!
More velocity = more distance, try an example that actually works with something going the same velocity and the same amount of time before hitting the ground...

Exactly there isn't one because that is all the effects distance in the x direction Velocity and Time.

I think i'm going to stop reading this thread because it's ovb that we are no going to come to one conclusion i will try a heavier ball in the summer and if it does go farther i will come back and tell u that u were right (that's a big if in my books though, although i do agree that it will be more accurate)
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#51 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 10:49 PM

View PostWTF!, on Mar 20 2006, 08:26 PM, said:

"Flick a marble. Then really throw one. Which goes further?"

The thrown marble goes further because it is travelling faster VT = D!
More velocity = more distance, try an example that actually works with something going the same velocity and the same amount of time before hitting the ground...

Exactly there isn't one because that is all the effects distance in the x direction Velocity and Time.
Are you REALLY intent on ignoring what I wrote? Heck, everyone else does so why not?

Ok, once more. And this time with feeling.

Momentum = mass * velocity

How much something moves = the mass of the object MULTIPLIED by how fast it moves.

If the VELOCITY is the same for an object and a similar sized but more massive object, the heavier object will have more MOMENTUM. More MOMENTUM means more DISTANCE when pushed.

I think I see your problem! You're using a formula to find AVERAGE speed of an object, and I'm talking about moving mass and energy transference as it referes to paintballs in flight. You're trying to use "Distance = Velocity/Time", which is used to find AVERAGE DISTANCE ignoring mass, friction / acceleration, and so on. I'm talking about using more energy to create more distance. NOT force, NOT average speed, but momre distance with more energy.

This is, what, the 10th time I've said this in thread? See back in the day the paint was heavier, and the ranges you could get were insane. Smart Parts bragged about a "100 yard accuracy" becasue the paint was HEAVIER. You used more air to shoot them, but they reached out and touched someone I'll tell you. NOW the paint is lighter. I wondered a while ago if I was getting thicker skin or if the paint wasn't leaving the same welts. And after talking to some more of the old timers, I'm really leaning to the paint just not having the same mass anymore. The ultimate tell is the air efficiency. My stroker used to get 500 shots from the old paint on Nitrogen. Now it's more like 700-750. The air hasn't changed, just the projectile.

Naturally, I'm wasting my time as "WTF!" said he's not reading the thread anymore, but hopefully I can lamp-post this thread.

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#52 User is offline   JKLNHYD 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:06 PM

I thought I already posted here but I guess not.

I find it amusing how everyone is arguing against Tyger so feverishly. I don't think Tyger would post a thread that he is guessing at. Obviously the guy has not only physics in his pocket, but many more years of paintball experience than most of his debators.

Just because someone gets a 98 on their little high school test doesn't mean they know everything. They just know almost everything that was taught in the book their teacher gave them. I'll bet that not one person that is arguing with him actually got up from the computer to go test it out. Not one.

Tyger, I for one, am listening and am going to practice this technique. This guy helped write a book on paintball and you guys think he's BSing or doesn't know what he's talking about?
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#53 User is offline   famousgamer 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:17 PM

Insane. Thousands of words dedicated to displaying that if you lob a shot it will go farther... and to use lightweight paitntballs. Seriously.

Okay Tyger. Yer a smart guy. Congrats.

The weird thing is... lobbing a shot is not accurate... even slightly. It goes farther yes, nut it would be way more accurate aiming at something with an inaccurate apex or flatline barrel.

Why is this in the sniper section? I think every position shoudl know about "shot lobbing"... or "paintball trebuchet!".
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#54 User is offline   jakethesnake741 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:33 PM

I still am of the opinion that if you didn't know lobbing your shots would give you more range you should just put down your marker and find a new hobby. Saying that is a breakthrough of playstyles is like saying the best way to hide is behind a tree (granted I did play with a dude who hid in front of the tree...and then was eliminated very quickly).

As far as arguing if a heavy paintball will fly farther, stop debating physics and arguing equations. Its all rather pointless since in the real world things tend to be a little different than on paper. Go out, find a brand of paint that is heavier and shoot it, and then shoot a brand that is lighter. If you set your marker in a vice and just drop the paint in one at a time you'll have the most accurate results and you can see for yourself if "heavy" paint fly's farther.

As far as lobbing being inaccurate, it really isn't as long as you know your marker well enough and how shots curve more often then not. An example you may ask? Well I was playing with some friends, just a simple 2v2, I saw someone on the other team and they opened fire. I really didn't bother to do anything since I figured I was out of range and didn't feel like wasting a hopper and not hitting them. My teamate was able to get their attention so I proceded to move closer.

Once I got to where I felt comfortable with a shot, or I felt I couldn't move any closer without giving my possition away, I got ready to shoot. Problem was that I was well out of standard ranger, I sighted my marker and instinctively pulled the marker up about 30* and to the left about 10* (it curves quite a bit to the side).

When I shot my first shot their back was too me and I hit inches from their butt, the next 2 out of 3 shots hit in the middle of their back, and back of their head. Lobbing shots is a very good way to mark someone, and it is quite an accurate way of doing it. The only thing is that you have to know your marker quite well and have shot it at targets a lot to get a good feel for how the shots will go.
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#55 User is offline   famousgamer 

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 11:42 PM

totally. It seems like a weird thing to dedicate over a thousand words too.

What ever happened to common sense?
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#56 User is offline   JKLNHYD 

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 12:13 AM

View Postfamousgamer, on Mar 20 2006, 10:42 PM, said:

totally. It seems like a weird thing to dedicate over a thousand words too.

What ever happened to common sense?



If you reread the original post, there is much more information in there than common sense. There are weights measures, distances, and so on.

Obviously some people in here already may now these things but some don't, that is who Tyger is addressing. Can't a guy try to help out people without all the flack? If you already know this, do you feel that it would benefit someone who doesn't? I never even thought of the heavier ball thing, but once he wrote it, I too said that I should have thought of it because it is, "Common Sense".

As a hunter I have lobbed many shots that were too far for a flat shot. I think everyone can figure this one out. But no one has taken the time to explain where the boundaries between maximum effect and failure are. Also, as a hunter, I usually try to hunt uphill because I know that a wounded animal will usually take the easiest route to escape, which is down hill right for me. This way I can get another shot. His explanation of this also was "Common Sense" after it was pointed out. I also try to circle around to stay down wind or with the sun to my back, which is common sense to me up maybe not someone else.

Physic seems to be "Common Sense" to alot of member here but not all, including me. I am more street smart than book smart. I know that if you wrap 2 towels around a baseball bat, you will not break bones or leave bruises at the surface. Common Sense? To me, yeah. Did they teach anyone in Physics that? <_<

This post has been edited by JKLNHYD: 21 March 2006 - 12:15 AM

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#57 User is offline   sartek 

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 02:21 AM

Ok.. some hole in the arguements used against Tyger's explanations..

1. Paintballs are liquid inside, true.. but what people fail to take into consideration is the viscosity, or thickness of that fluid. Bill Mills actually did a test and used it as an arguement against Tom Kaye's "rifling does nothing" article. He put a paintball in a motorized mount similar to how a lathe works and spun it for days. His purpose was to try and get the pigment in the fill to mix evenly, as the paint was old and the pigment had settled. The problem he had was that the fill was so thick it spun with the paintball and the pigment would not remix, as you would think would happen if the fill was less viscous.

The fill in 90% of todays paint is so thick that it bonds to the shells and spins with the shell, in essence acting like a solid. I think wild streak is the only stuff I've seen that is a true "liquid" fill anymore. It breaks open and runs like orange soda.

The "EGG" analogy... again.. paint fill is actually MUCH thicker than the yolk, or the whites of an egg.

some forms of rifling are more effective than others. this is where the arguements about range come into play. (now for the unintelligble technical explanation with a confusing analogy!)

Air pressure affects all surfaces of a sphere equally, except during motion.
there are TWO types of drag that effect any object traveling through the air. Wind resistance, and pressure drag. for a sphere, the wind resistance is considered negligible since all surfaces are considered even.

Imagine a globe in a stand turned on it's side. now spin the globe. if it were a paintball, the air pressure would most effect along the equator, or in a vertical path. this is what generates the magnus effect for flatlines. If you notice though, at the poles where the stand holds the globe, the rate of rotation is much slower. this results in unbalanced pressure, and pressure drag on the surface of the paintball. the top of the paintball, which is rotating with the direction of the air, has the lowest pressure and minimal drag, while the sides have neutral pressure and normal drag, and the bottom has the greatest pressure and higher pressure drag.

this is also why some people notice a marginal accuracy with the flatline. at distance, when the paintball begins losing forward momentum, any pressure differences on the sides 90░ to the direction of rotation will have higher impact on direction aka gyroscopic precession.

now take that same globe on its side and spin it. only this time, the paintball-globe is traveling in line with poles, and the rotation is 90░ to direction of travel. since all the air is being directed evenly across the surface, the rotation is affecting the air pressure evenly across all the surfaces and is deflected, putting kind of a spiral on the air currents. this is known as the Coriolis force. As the air currents reconverge on the back side of the paintball, the currents and pressure have lower imbalances and smoother interaction, which reduces pressure drag altogether, while still centering it behind the paintball. you dont end up with as much distance as from the magnus effect, but you do have some improved distance and accuracy due to the decrease in pressure drag. the design of how spiraled rifling is achieved also has great effect on how much and how effective the amount of coriolis force is applied to the paintball.

straight rifling has a similar effect, only through opposite means. Straight rifling prevents any rotation of the paintball, which allows for air pressure and currents to naturally stabilize over the surface during flight, instead of inducing the stability, which has the greatest effect for point to point accuracy. It also has the greatest detriment. If any part of the paintball surface is uneven or has a dimple, it creates a very high imbalance of pressure and flow at that one point which will cause a sudden high rotation and throw the paint in that direction, like throwing a curveball, only much more drastic.

With a smoothbore barrel, the air pressure, and friction with the inside of the barrel will cause some minor uncontrolled rotation on various axis. this causes a random differential in where the pressure drag is generated on each paintball and causes such a wide spread of where paint goes with each shot.

Having a good paint to bore match has the greatest effect on velocity control, not accuracy, as most are inclined to believe. the highest level of accuracy has to be obtained through a balance of bore size and length of your barrel, because almost ALL barrels increase in bore size from the control bore to the muzzle.

As for the rifling 'cutting' into a paintball to be of effectiveness. this is not true. what people fail to take into consideration is the material of the shell, and how the rifling is achieved. Rifling is cut into the BARREL, not the other way around. with the pressure of compressed air, or even co2, the shell of a paintball is deformed to fit the barrel surface, essentially molding the shell to the rifling. the only reason that firearm rifling is made to cut into the surface of the bullet is due to the extremely high velocities.

Snyper06: The crimping you are refering to in the jacket of a bullet is caused by the manufacturing process. it has nothing to do with rifling. Modern rifling methods were invented by the french prior to the 1800's, when there were no metal jacketed bullets. round musket balls were used. The US used rifles against the British towards the end of the revolutionary war. Rifling insome form or another has been used in firearms since the 1540's. The ammo was still round lead balls. the actual pointed shape of the modern bullet did not come into wide use until the Minie bullet was developed in the 1840's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet

This post has been edited by sartek: 01 May 2006 - 03:06 AM

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#58 User is offline   famousgamer 

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 08:36 PM

This thread got stickied. Its just gets more real every day. What the hell am I doing here?
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#59 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 08:44 PM

A lot of people are wondering the same thing.
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#60 User is offline   Chubbs77 

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 09:13 PM

Nice job tyger A+++++
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