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How to get maximum distance legally! Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#31 User is offline   Gaelic Sniper 

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 07:04 PM

Now rifling can add distance. Since the fill of the paintball is liquid, that would lead to the fill to lead forward to the place where you are shooting. That spin in turn adds to the momentum of the paintball and can lead to an increase in distance, but the increase in distance is only a few feet at the most. So in conclusion, stick to Tyger's advice and tilt your gun 20-30 degrees to gain distance. <http://www.astro.uwo.ca/~jlandstr/p467/lec1-angmom/index.html> And this stuff may be over some people's heads, but it does indeed prove and clarify this fact
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#32 User is offline   jakethesnake741 

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 11:34 PM

The buying heavy paint thing is something that I can see most people not thinking about, even seasoned vets. But with the shooting from heights and angling your marker to gain distance. I'm a little surprised people seem to not have thought about this as being the main way to get distance, at least from a lot of posts that seems to be what it looks like. It's a good writeup Tyger, just seems like you were posting common sense things that you should pick up within 2 or 3 games, especially the angling the marker up "trick". I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't figure this out and only played a couple games and never touched a paintball marker beforehand.

Well, if you taught someone something they didn't know about then I guess the article was a success because thats what it's original purpose was for.

View PostJackRock, on Mar 1 2006, 02:36 PM, said:

Except we're taking about different directions. Rifling spins the ball on the Y axis, to create spin for accuracy (in the case of real firearms).

A flatline or Apex spins the ball on the X axis. This is not meant to spin the fill. It is meant to create lift, like on an airplane wing. This air movement only needs to touch the shell to be effective, not the fill inside.

And that is why a Flatline works but rifling does not.


Can you explain that a little better? I don't think you fully understand how the flatline works, or even what forces are involved, I can't tell from your link cause it takes me to a page cannot be found site. But my understanding with the flatline is that it works because it does creat spin on the ball. The spin of the shell creates a high air pressure pocket just behind and below the ball, this is known as the magnus effect. If you were however to stop the spin midflight you would lose the magnus effect and the ball would fly normal. It's not something you start and it will continue if the projectile stops spinning, part of getting the magnus effect to work is that you have to have the shell spinning.

So the flatline and apex, again in my understanding of the forces at work, do prove that it is possible to put a spin on a paintball. And Tyger, you made me think of a great annalogy, you said that a paintball is like an egg. And it is, egg yolk is about as thick as paint fill, has anyone ever spun and egg then stopped it shortly and leg go...If you do this you will find that the egg will spin again, granted much slower than it was. This little "test" actually proves that it is possible to get the fill to spin along with the shell, yes I know your going to take more time getting the egg started to spin than you have time for a paintball in a barrel. But you also have to think that there is a lot more energy being added to a paintball being shot than to the egg your spinning by hand.
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#33 User is offline   JackRock 

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 01:20 AM

Except the flatline and apex put a spin on the ball, not necessarily the fill inside. That's what I'm getting at. And yes, I know fully well how the flatline and Apex barrels work.

But for the effect that these barrels use, only the shell needs to spin. For a rifled barrel to truly work, the fill and the shell need to spin at the same speed from the first millisend to the last. This simply doesn't happen. Even in an egg.
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#34 User is offline   jakethesnake741 

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 01:35 AM

But how do you get just the shell to spin with the flatline and Apex? That is the part your confusing me on, it seems to me that if the outside spins the inside will spin too. The reason why i say this is because once you start the shell rotating the fill not spinning will slow it down and eventually they will either both spin the same speed(much slower than the shells initial speed) or the shell will stop spinning all together. So again we are back to square one, it is possible to get the fill to spin with the shell, and thust rifling theoretically is possible.

Now I am going to refute myself with this next statement just to get it out of the way. Rifling in a real firearm works by digging into the bullet, with musket balls it was the wadding behind the ball that would dig into the grooves. Either way you need something to get deep into the grooves in order to unduce proper spin. Of course we all know that the shell of paintballs is very thin and brittle, it needs to be this way in order to break on contact. Paintball manufacturers probably have the hardest job there is, they need to make a product that can stand high-g acceleration but still break when in contact with something semi-hard.

Well because of the second effect needed of a paintball you can't design something to properly dig into the shell, still, I have heard too many good things about rifled paintball barrells reported accuracy to totally disregard the ability to imply spin. Everything I have heard have been from people who own the barrels, they could be trying to justify buying into hype, or they could be onto something.

That is my way of thinking about it, not too much physics behind it, and no lab tests to back me up. The facts that I come to the table with is accounts from people who own the barrels and how they say the react.
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#35 User is offline   dalongbowwilson 

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 12:40 AM

View PostTyger, on Jan 7 2006, 03:18 AM, said:

MurderDeathKill, on Jan 6 2006, 10:52 PM, said:

One minor, minor addition... it is true that a heavier ball retains more energy, but recall that all objects fall at the same speed. Firing a normal, horizontal shot, a heavier ball won't give you more distance -- not a significant amount anyway. The only difference is that it will be travelling slightly faster as it loses height and effective altitude.

See that just doesn't make sense.

Even when you account for gravity at 9.8 m/s/s (Or quck and dirty, 10 m/s2), the more massive (heavier) paintball will still have more energy to fly straight (or what passes for it). If you take a paper ball and throw it with all your might, then throw it with a flick of a wrist, which goes further? The paper ball falls to Earth at the same rate both times, but more energy means more distance in all practical terms.

MurderDeathKill, on Jan 6 2006, 10:59 PM, said:

Headshotjester, on Jan 6 2006, 09:57 PM, said:

That's in a vacuum... If you are talking about how a bowling ball and a penny fall at the same speed? What about a feather? Due to wind resistance, this isn't true unless in a vacuum.

paintballs have uniform aerodynamic properties.

That may be, but you can't argue physics. Well, you can, but it doesn't work.

Assuming all other variables are equal, more mass at equal speed gives a ball more momentum. Momentum is mass times velocity, and all other factors being equal more mass @ same speed = more momentum. It takes more energy to move the ball to the same velocity, and the ball will keep this energy longer.

Quick recap of Newton's laws of motion :

I. an object in motion will stay in motion and an object at rest will stay at rest unless acted on by an unbalanced force. This is commonly known as "Inertia".

II. the force of an object is equal to its mass times its acceleration. Or, shorter version, F=M x A This is a way to measure momentum.

III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

So what does this have to do with momentum? Let's look at Newton's laws in relation to a heavy to light ball.

Both will be acted upon more or less equally by gravity. The formula is wicked, so for all intents and purposes the difference in mass is not a factor. It exists, but the difference is so small it won't really be noticable. For the sake of argument, then, both a high mass ball and a low mass ball of the same relative size will have the same "inertia".

It's the third I want to hit on. The heavier ball requires more energy to achieve the same velocity as a lighter ball. Equal and opposite reactions. You put energy into a paintball by force of compressed air. It takes MORE energy to move the heavy ball.

Where does this energy go? The law of "Conservation of energy" tells us that energy can not be created nor destroyed. So where does the extra energy go? The energy is transferred to the ball as force, and that energy pushes the ball further. Areodynamics don't enter into the equation, as the ball with more mass and the ball with LESS mass have the same size.

I think I can describe it like this. Take a vehicle, and drive it at 15 MPH with just you in the car. put it in neutral, and see how far you coast until you stop. Now load the car down with your friends, get the car moving at 15 MPH, and put it in neutral. You will coast further. The reason is that more mass requires more "push" from the engine, and more "push" means more energy (force). More energy means more distance traveled.

Newton's 1st law is in effect, that the object is in motion with an outside force working on it (friction). That outside force is a constant, however, as the car is the same physical size and friction is not taking any more work away than before (unless you cound the extra friction that the internal mass puts on the car itself). But his second law is in effect as well, that there is more force (Joules) working to move more mass at the same velocity. And the third law that it takes more force to move more mass, but in the second law more force = more momentum.

I get a feeling I'm confusing more people than helping at this point....

But in a nutshell, that's why a heavy ball flies further, even at a flat trajectory. It needs more energy to move at the same velocity as a light ball, and that energy turns into distance downrange. Aerodynamics are a constant, as they're the same with two paintballs of similar size. Now if you shot a ball that was .71 and compared it to a ball that was .675, you'd notice a difference in aerodynamics. But that's not what we're talking about here.

-Tyger


At this point the horeses carcas is dead and rotting but i really can allow people to believe this!
A heavier fill will only make a paintball go further after it hits the ground.
Due to the fact that gravity has the same downward accelertion both a ball with a light fill and a ball with a heavier fill will go the same distance. the example with the cars is actually irrelevant because were compaing the distance traveled after the car levels out, similar to the distance traveled after the paint hits the floor. a good example would be a vertical drop of the cars in which you would find that both would take the same amount of time to hit the ground. the inherent logical fallicy in this is like saying that NASA can send heavier things into space with less fuel than lighter things because of the inertia created by the heavier thing moving.
Even using the logic that heavier paint flies farther, Thick paint is made by having a higher dry material to liquid ratio than thin paint, so techniquely runn rec paint would be heavier undermining the "bonus range of premium paint".
And the flatline and apex work because of how the air moves around the ball.
whew
hmmmm..... some of you are looking at me funny :dodgy:

This post has been edited by dalongbowwilson: 16 March 2006 - 12:43 AM

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QUOTE(nevascared @ Jan 19 2006, 10:30 PM) View Post
Running out with guns blazing is pointless. Like when you hunt deer do you run out with a shot gun and pump as much lead into the buck as possible? No. you do it with skill
QUOTE(femur breaker @ Mar 16 2006, 09:29 PM) View Post
I dont care what they call it, I just seem to do it! Call them Paintball Possums for all I care, sniper is just a name that seems to fit the best....
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#36 User is offline   Shadow_sniper89 

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 08:33 AM

Ok, this is something that most people dont think about, but if timed right it works every time. Aim the gun up at like a 30 degree angle and start swinging it at the ground. when the gun is level shoot it. The ball will want to stay put but the gun is moving down, thus there is more pressure from the ball on the top part of the barrel then on the bottem. Basicly, a flatline. Only this wont work nearly as well as a flatline. I have found that if timed right it adds a good 30-35ft, but thats with my J&J S2 using DBX paint with Alabama humidity. Anyway, just thought i'd add that, agree or disagree but it works for me.


- Shadow
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#37 User is offline   BlackLight Z 

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 08:44 AM

are you saying that a these techniques are as effective as a flatline? b/c if so, that is totally false. not only does a fltline get 100 more feet, but the trajectory of the shot is flat(hence the name). this allows for longer shots through thick overhanging cover, or brush. angling up and shooting that long shot in the woods is extremely difficult. not only to get the proper range without a stream of paint, but to get it through the cover or brush with a clear line of sight. also, something a straight barrel cant do, is curve a shot around cover to eliminate a target using the "magnus effect". I think your post is a little misleading regarding the advantages that a flatline gives a player.
z

View PostShadow_sniper89, on Mar 16 2006, 08:33 AM, said:

Ok, this is something that most people dont think about, but if timed right it works every time. Aim the gun up at like a 30 degree angle and start swinging it at the ground. when the gun is level shoot it. The ball will want to stay put but the gun is moving down, thus there is more pressure from the ball on the top part of the barrel then on the bottem. Basicly, a flatline. Only this wont work nearly as well as a flatline. I have found that if timed right it adds a good 30-35ft, but thats with my J&J S2 using DBX paint with Alabama humidity. Anyway, just thought i'd add that, agree or disagree but it works for me.


- Shadow


thats interesting but obviously not as accurate because of barrel movement. but goof thinking
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#38 User is offline   BlackLight Z 

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 08:56 AM

[/quote]

At this point the horeses carcas is dead and rotting but i really can allow people to believe this!
A heavier fill will only make a paintball go further after it hits the ground.
Due to the fact that gravity has the same downward accelertion both a ball with a light fill and a ball with a heavier fill will go the same distance. the example with the cars is actually irrelevant because were compaing the distance traveled after the car levels out, similar to the distance traveled after the paint hits the floor. a good example would be a vertical drop of the cars in which you would find that both would take the same amount of time to hit the ground. the inherent logical fallicy in this is like saying that NASA can send heavier things into space with less fuel than lighter things because of the inertia created by the heavier thing moving.
Even using the logic that heavier paint flies farther, Thick paint is made by having a higher dry material to liquid ratio than thin paint, so techniquely runn rec paint would be heavier undermining the "bonus range of premium paint".
And the flatline and apex work because of how the air moves around the ball.
whew
hmmmm..... some of you are looking at me funny :)
[/quote]


although I am not a huge fan of this article, I think there is validity to the heavy paint although it is minor. the heavier the paint, the more able the paintball is to fight resistance. wind resistance in this case. and although you make some good points, the shuttle comment is kinda bad logic. the difference is the paintball is moving when it leaves the barrel when wind and gravity become a factor, the shuttle is stationary. there is also some kind of an equation regarding weight, resistance, etc. should have kept my physics books from college, but the $70 I got when I sold it back was way more important to my drinking career at the time
z

View Postjakethesnake741, on Mar 4 2006, 11:34 PM, said:

The buying heavy paint thing is something that I can see most people not thinking about, even seasoned vets. But with the shooting from heights and angling your marker to gain distance. I'm a little surprised people seem to not have thought about this as being the main way to get distance, at least from a lot of posts that seems to be what it looks like. It's a good writeup Tyger, just seems like you were posting common sense things that you should pick up within 2 or 3 games, especially the angling the marker up "trick". I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't figure this out and only played a couple games and never touched a paintball marker beforehand.

Well, if you taught someone something they didn't know about then I guess the article was a success because thats what it's original purpose was for.

View PostJackRock, on Mar 1 2006, 02:36 PM, said:

Except we're taking about different directions. Rifling spins the ball on the Y axis, to create spin for accuracy (in the case of real firearms).

A flatline or Apex spins the ball on the X axis. This is not meant to spin the fill. It is meant to create lift, like on an airplane wing. This air movement only needs to touch the shell to be effective, not the fill inside.

And that is why a Flatline works but rifling does not.


Can you explain that a little better? I don't think you fully understand how the flatline works, or even what forces are involved, I can't tell from your link cause it takes me to a page cannot be found site. But my understanding with the flatline is that it works because it does creat spin on the ball. The spin of the shell creates a high air pressure pocket just behind and below the ball, this is known as the magnus effect. If you were however to stop the spin midflight you would lose the magnus effect and the ball would fly normal. It's not something you start and it will continue if the projectile stops spinning, part of getting the magnus effect to work is that you have to have the shell spinning.

So the flatline and apex, again in my understanding of the forces at work, do prove that it is possible to put a spin on a paintball. And Tyger, you made me think of a great annalogy, you said that a paintball is like an egg. And it is, egg yolk is about as thick as paint fill, has anyone ever spun and egg then stopped it shortly and leg go...If you do this you will find that the egg will spin again, granted much slower than it was. This little "test" actually proves that it is possible to get the fill to spin along with the shell, yes I know your going to take more time getting the egg started to spin than you have time for a paintball in a barrel. But you also have to think that there is a lot more energy being added to a paintball being shot than to the egg your spinning by hand.


google the "magnus effect", its all there

This post has been edited by BlackLight Z: 16 March 2006 - 08:57 AM

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#39 User is offline   dalongbowwilson 

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Posted 16 March 2006 - 04:22 PM

I wont contest that the heavier ball will fight wind resistance better but the
added range would not be more than a foot max.
were dealing with weight differences in tenths of a gram.
REALLY....i asked my physics teacher :D
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QUOTE(nevascared @ Jan 19 2006, 10:30 PM) View Post
Running out with guns blazing is pointless. Like when you hunt deer do you run out with a shot gun and pump as much lead into the buck as possible? No. you do it with skill
QUOTE(femur breaker @ Mar 16 2006, 09:29 PM) View Post
I dont care what they call it, I just seem to do it! Call them Paintball Possums for all I care, sniper is just a name that seems to fit the best....
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#40 User is offline   I cant pick a proper name 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 10:32 AM

if u shoot two balls out of a gun at the same speed the heavier will go straighter (less affected by wind and such), but if u passed high school physics (which i guess half of u didn't or at least not with a 98) you would know that they are both going to hit the ground at the exact same time and therefore, VT=D and because time in the air and velocity are equal DISTANCE IS EQUAL. However, the heavier ball will give you more accuracy but will also require more force to get it moving the same speed.

Both have the same arodynamics you can't say that the heavier will cut through air better!

This post has been edited by WTF!: 19 March 2006 - 10:34 AM

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#41 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 03:16 PM

Do I really feel like arguing physics with people who use statistics like a drunk frog uses a lightpost? Do I feel like talking about expirence over statistics? Do I really feel like discussing again things like mass, joules, and so on with people who want to insult rather than discuss?

No, I think not.

Oh, and specifically to "WTF" there? Using "U" ( as in "u passed high school physics") instead of "You" does not convince me that you scored well in any class, let alone Physics. And besides, it's mass at speed, not defying gravity. And an object with more mass will travel further than a light object at the same velocity. It's called momentum. You should know that.

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#42 User is offline   I cant pick a proper name 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 10:09 PM

First off spelling doesn't matter in physics ovb. Also the fact that an object has more momentum doesn't mean it will stay in the air longer it is still equally effected by gravity and will fall just as fast (so if something falls just as fast that means if it's going the same speed it will go the same distance).

Do you know what momentum is?

Momentum is the ability or tendency for an object to continue in the direction it is going, that means that it will not be affected as much by wind and the likes, it doesn't mean that it will fly farther.

It is actually kind of sad how people keep arguing about this ovb concept.

After hitting the ground it will continue on farther than one with less mass because it has more MOMENTUM and is less affected by the ground.

This post has been edited by WTF!: 19 March 2006 - 10:16 PM

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#43 User is offline   UWANNAGO 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 10:29 PM

that heavy paint thing is brillian paint comapines should come out with secial paint like that
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#44 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 11:02 PM

View PostWTF!, on Mar 19 2006, 11:09 PM, said:

Do you know what momentum is?


In fact, yes I do.

"Momentum is the ability or tendency for an object to continue in the direction it is going, that means that it will not be affected as much by wind and the likes, it doesn't mean that it will fly farther." So you say. I say you need to back up a step, as you're quoting Newton's law, and not how momentum works.

Momentum is "mass in motion". Mass being how much "stuff" is in an object. And if you follow a simple scientific formula of Momentum = mass * velocity, then we have my proof.

If the velocity of two objects is the same, and the mass is different, the thing with the higher mass has more momentum, and thus will travel further when pushed.

Quote

The momentum equation can help us to think about how a change in one of the two variables might affect the momentum of an object. Consider a 0.5-kg physics cart loaded with one 0.5-kg brick and moving with a speed of 2.0 m/s. The total mass of loaded cart is 1.0 kg and its momentum is 2.0 kg*m/s. If the cart was instead loaded with three 0.5-kg bricks, then the total mass of the loaded cart would be 2.0 kg and its momentum would be 4.0 kg*m/s. A doubling of the mass results in a doubling of the momentum.


Amazing what a Google search will pop up.

It takes more energy to move the more massive object. This is, in practice, where the range comes from. Energy can not be created nor destroyed, so the extra energy put on the more massive object to move it at the same velocity means the object is given more energy. More energy = more momentum, more momentum means more distance.

What you're confusing here is Newton's laws of motion, which are :

I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it.

OR : An object in motion will remain in motion until acted upon by an outside force. Also called the law of inertia.

II. The acceleration of an object of constant mass is proportional to the force acting upon it.

What this law says is that while you are applying a force on an object, it will continue to accelerate or change its velocity. It also states that the greater the force on an object, the greater the acceleration.

III. Whenever one body exerts force upon a second body, the second body exerts an equal and opposite force upon the first body.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Or, the harder you push something, the further it goes.

So, to use Mr. Newton's laws, you put more force behind a higher mass paintball to bring it to the same velocity as a lower mass paintball. There's extra energy in the +mass ball, and since energy can not be created or destroyed it must go somewhere. So it goes into the distance the ball travels before it hits the ground when all other variables are equal (fired from same height, same environment, all that) 3rd law allows us to shoot the ball, 1st law provides that the ball will go "straight" unless something acts on the ball, and 2nd law says that once you shoot the ball it will not speed up once it leaves the barrel.

Conclusion : A more massive ball will have more momentum than a less massive ball. If both balls are traveling at the same exit velocity, the more massive ball will have more energy. More energy means, in the terms of paintball, more distance.

Simple science with a complex answer.

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#45 User is offline   Slick 

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 11:09 PM

View PostGaelic Sniper, on Mar 4 2006, 08:04 PM, said:

Now rifling can add distance. Since the fill of the paintball is liquid, that would lead to the fill to lead forward to the place where you are shooting. That spin in turn adds to the momentum of the paintball and can lead to an increase in distance, but the increase in distance is only a few feet at the most. So in conclusion, stick to Tyger's advice and tilt your gun 20-30 degrees to gain distance. <http://www.astro.uwo.ca/~jlandstr/p467/lec1-angmom/index.html> And this stuff may be over some people's heads, but it does indeed prove and clarify this fact


umm... i believe it has been proven by pretty much every gunsmith who cruises these forums that rifling does absolutely nothing in paintball. rifling in guns physically carves grooves in bullets to put a forced spin on it. if you wanted to do that to a paintball, you would just end up mutilating a box of paint.
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