Special Ops Paintball: Am I Really Asking Too Much? - Special Ops Paintball

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#1 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 10:42 PM

Is it too much to ask to have a light weight, compact, magazine fed paintball gun?

With magazines that contain built in refillable air resevoirs that can be charged from a normal co2 or compressed air cylinder from a simple fitting.

The option of adding a folding or fully collapseable stock.

Folding and collapseable stocks that have mask wells that accomodate a paintball mask and make it possible to aim through sites.

At a reasonable price?

Because as of now the only magazine fed paintball markers that seem to exist are horribly oversized milsim monstrosities that way as much as a truck, are long enough to pole vault with and are lucky to be able to perform on par with a "normal" marker. OR pistols which are alright but probably a little short ranged and don't have a lot of options for customization.

The only magazines we have either have no onboard air, forcing either remote lines or hanging giant awkward cylinders from the marker (kind of self defeating as the magazine concept is supposed to remove awkward bulky things like hoppers and tanks in the first place), OR take 12 grams that you constantly have to buy up and throw out by the dozen, AND are all absurdly overpriced: even the most basic plastic box with a spring in it that holds paintballs costs nearly 50 bucks! For a plastic box with a spring in it! I'd pay 40-50 for something with built in refillable air, but for a box with a spring in it? No. Not okay. Conversation over.

And the only stocks that exist are all so single mindedly aimed at simulating a look that none of them actually accomodate an actual PAINTBALL MASK rendering them all more or less useless on a PAINTBALL GUN in a PAINTBALL GAME where one must wear a PAINTBALL MASK.

None of this is ok. None of it. Is ok.
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#2 User is offline   The Stuntman 

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

So I picture some kind of hybrid gun....built like a conventional marker, but with a vertical mag feed like a mil-sim....
Might look a little weird, but if it works I could see a market for it....
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#3 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:28 PM

Yeah, pretty much. Simple right?

I don't know, paintball seems hyper polarized. Everyone's either all, "Mehhhhh! Speedball! Hoppers! Tons of electronics! Neon colors! Screw anything that't not that!" or all, "Mehhh! MilSim! Twenty inch long barrels even though there's no accuracy or ranged advantage to them! Solid stocks and/or car stocks, even though you can't aim with them, because they look real! Scopes even though there's no target far enough away to need a scope that a paintball gun could shoot far enough to hit anyway!".

There don't seem to be a whole lot of centrists picking the best of both worlds running around this game. But I'd sure by the hell out of it if it existed.

In any case, Imma doodle it!
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#4 User is offline   Cuy'val Dar  

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:37 PM

If you had access to some tools, you may could make your own stuff. Not so much the tank thing, but a lot of the other stuff could be done. Are you familiar with solid works or similar programs?
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#5 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:50 PM

Wha... d'... uhhhh... ???

Ugh. I knew this guy from riding my dirtbike, who had a complete metal fabrication shop. He had all kinds of computer controlled lathes. Used them to fabricate custom parts for offroad vehicles, he could literally turn a few blocks of metal into a professional grade racing transmission in that shop, and he did that for Baja. I met him through some offroad motorcycle riding forum and we went on a ride through the mountains together. It was ridiculously cool, and if we wound up being friends I could see so much potential for amazing stuff. Oh, and to make extra money on the side, he fabricated rail hardware for firearms, so it was just perfectly right up that alley of eventually being able to make paintball stuff. Hell, between his resources and my concepts, we probably could've MADE this complete gun I'm thinking of, and that would've been amazing.

And he really seemed to want to be friends. But the thing was, that that was a little creepy, plus he was crazy amounts of christian, like I'm all for being religious if you wanna but it's like all that dudes life was about at all, any minute he wasn't in church/working/riding the dude was pretty much just listening to christian music, and that creeped me out even more, and he was borderline racist, which REALLY freaked me out. So I quit hanging out with that dude. Sucks, dude was into a lot of awesome stuff but had to be racist/evangelical. No offense to people that are really religious, that's just not my thing. Much offense to people that are racist.

Anyway. What? Are you talking about those robots that can "print" 3d objects with composits? Because yeah but those are expensive! I do have that google 3d design thing which is fun and intuitive I might just draft up a 3d model on there!
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#6 User is offline   Cuy'val Dar  

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:16 AM

Yeah, those robot things, you can rent em for relatively cheap I believe.
Or you could go to your local university and talk to the engineering nerds. They would probably have access to a 3d printer.
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#7 User is offline   Krazy8 

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

The designing, testing and building of a pressure vessel is a pretty serious amount of work and cost. That is why you do not see integrated air supply. For co2 you need a container that will safely hold 1800 PS I and if I remember correctly have a burst rating three times that to pass DOT testing. HPA minimum is 3k and the testing by DOT just as rigorous if not a bit more intense due to increased pressure.

So that leads you to incorporate current existing platforms which limit design and placement due size...a 3.5 ounce co2 tank is a bit under 2" in diameter and a touch under 6" long. Need a bit more then you step up to a 5 ounce tank which is nearly 9" long. Those small tanks provide very little shot capacity even using the higher effeiency of co2...convert those to HPA and you reduce the shot count even more.

And the magazine would be huge. And expensive. Tried to buy an aluminum 3.5 ounce co2 tank lately? $30-$40. And the 5 ounce is no better at the $50 price range.

Don't need the 250 to 300 round shot capacity of the 3.5 ounce tank since you are going may fed? Try looking at the 35 to 60 gram tanks. Then try and breathe because a refillable 45 gram tank costs as much as the 3.5 ounce co2 tank! And you are cutting you shot count by 2/3 down to just a sliver over 100 per air fill.



And i have not even touched on the costs of developing a consistantly good mag design....or the interface between gun, air and paint...


What you are asking for is hundreds of man hours in design and testing just for safety standards alone...then more testing for reliability and operation. Prototyping would be ridiculously expensive. Especially for a highly limited market of players. At the high side I would not see selling more that a few hundred units.




No profit in that. Not gonna happen.

This post has been edited by Krazy8: 26 January 2013 - 11:04 AM

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#8 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:37 PM

So. What you're saying is that I am asking too much?


No.

View PostKrazy8, on 26 January 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

The designing, testing and building of a pressure vessel is a pretty serious amount of work and cost. That is why you do not see integrated air supply. For co2 you need a container that will safely hold 1800 PS I and if I remember correctly have a burst rating three times that to pass DOT testing. HPA minimum is 3k and the testing by DOT just as rigorous if not a bit more intense due to increased pressure.


R&D for something like this would not be that big of a deal. It's not like we're developing a technology that's never existed before. I'm pretty sure we've pretty much mastered pressurized cylinders by now. What we're talking about at most here is making cylinder of a different size/shape. We're talking about refillable 12gram here dude.

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So that leads you to incorporate current existing platforms which limit design and placement due size...a 3.5 ounce co2 tank is a bit under 2" in diameter and a touch under 6" long. Need a bit more then you step up to a 5 ounce tank which is nearly 9" long. Those small tanks provide very little shot capacity even using the higher effeiency of co2...convert those to HPA and you reduce the shot count even more.


All of that is way too big. You definitely do not need a bit more than 3.5 ounces. We're talking about magazines here. You need enough air to fire as many paintballs as are in a magazine. It'd be nice if it had enough to fire a few loads in the magazine so you don't have to recharge everytime you reload. But since the idea of a magazine feed system is to have many magazines and use each once in a game, and you'll be reloading each after each game, then it's perfectly fine if it only holds enough air for one use. Although again, holding enough for a couple uses is probable.

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And the magazine would be huge. And expensive. Tried to buy an aluminum 3.5 ounce co2 tank lately? $30-$40. And the 5 ounce is no better at the $50 price range.


Again, 3.5oz is way too big for an in mag air cylinder. C'mon. We know there's mags out there with onboard air (tiberius), they don't have to be that big, and for the amount of air you need in a single mag there's no reason they should be. The idea here is to just take that pre-existing concept and make it rechargeable.

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Don't need the 250 to 300 round shot capacity of the 3.5 ounce tank since you are going may fed? Try looking at the 35 to 60 gram tanks. Then try and breathe because a refillable 45 gram tank costs as much as the 3.5 ounce co2 tank! And you are cutting you shot count by 2/3 down to just a sliver over 100 per air fill.


Exactly. Oof. Again, it doesn't matter how much you're cutting your capacity, it's a magazine, as long as there's enough capacity to fire the magazine. Any more than that is simply a matter of off field convenience and completely unnecessary. As for the cost, if it's around 30-50 bucks for the air cylinder that's fine. If we just charge a reasonable price for the rest of the mag that's built around it, you'd be looking at a total of 40-60, which is pretty much what you're paying now for magazines anyway, just with no justification what so ever. As of now people are paying that much for nothing more than a plastic box with a spring in it, which is absolutely nothing short of insane. Actual firearms magazines are like 10-15 dollars, and those are built to work in combat where peoples lives or on the line. Apparently in that industry the manufacturers realize that it's a metal/composite box with a spring in it, it is not that difficult to manufacture, and we cannot get away with charging very much for it.

Our industry could use a dose of that realistic perspective. Anyway, yeah, cost of the cylinder included and cost of the plastic box with a spring reasonable, this is about the only magazine that would actually justify the cost of paintball magazines, for its self anyway, everything else is still just flat out ludicrous.

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And i have not even touched on the costs of developing a consistantly good mag design....or the interface between gun, air and paint...


Meh. Tiberius pulled it off just fine. Why do you keep trying to make building a mag sound like building rocket ships? Back before we knew how to build rocket ships.

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What you are asking for is hundreds of man hours in design and testing just for safety standards alone...then more testing for reliability and operation. Prototyping would be ridiculously expensive. Especially for a highly limited market of players. At the high side I would not see selling more that a few hundred units.




No profit in that. Not gonna happen.


This is the one point I'll concede here. Sadly there aren't a lot of players that realize the value of getting those giant boxes out of their sight lines, and achieving high rof force feed without excessive gaudy add on systems. Oh yeah, and I can see this being fairly difficult for compressed air. But for CO2 it should be fairly easy.

I don't doubt that it won't happen. But then that was kinda the point of my post.

It should happen.

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Included, a quickly drafted preconception of what it might look like it. You can see the ASA fitting in the bottom of the magazine, just plug in a full size cylinder and let the pressure equalize no need for pumps. Since the mags onboard cylinder is gonna be very low capacity you could refill it several times from a full size cylinder without the need for a compressors before the pressure dissipates to the point that you won't be able to fire a whole mag. A couple 20oz could refill all your mags for a solid several games maybe even a day's worth of them.
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#9 User is offline   IrishMack 

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:42 PM

So...you ask us a question...even though you know all the answers? :P

I am not smart enough to argue any of this stuff...but I think the idea is cool...that was all I really had to say.
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#10 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostIrishMack, on 31 January 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

So...you ask us a question...even though you know all the answers? :P

I am not smart enough to argue any of this stuff...but I think the idea is cool...that was all I really had to say.


It was a rhetorical question. I should have just titled this: Seriously? because that's how I feel about the state of affairs in mag fed paintball.

But, anyway, what am I supposed to say? "Oh, yeah, I guess you're right, lets never consider the possibility of compact, lightweight, mag feds, with advanced mag designs that eliminate the need for bulky air tanks and/or dangly remote lines."?

That wouldn't be a very good discussion.

I don't have all the answers, I don't know what could be done about compressed air in these things since that seems a bit much with the massive pressures involved. But when I see the idea getting shot down with sketchy arguments that make putting a refillable co2 cylinder in a mag sound like the scramble to accomplish the first apolo mission in terms of scale and scope, or talk about butting a 9oz cylinder in a magazine because that's necessary, of course I'm gonna be like, "Yo, that seems a little sketchy, it's not that big of a deal, there's no need for that much air in these things, capacity doesn't matter as long as it's enough to fire one magazine... because it's one magazine."

Anyway, you're smart enough to argue lots of things, I know because I've seen you do it. Not that this has to be an argument. But yeah, if you have any other thoughts on the subject I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to hear them!
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#11 User is offline   I.K.E. 

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:10 PM

Problem is, once you get this all rolling, Obama is gonna ban all your high-capacity magazines and your "assault markers" because they look scary. :dodgy: :dodgy: :dodgy: :dodgy:
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#12 User is offline   IrishMack 

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 07:39 PM

Lol, oh I know I can argue on a lot of topics...this is just one of those ones that I have no clue about :) I try to avoid arguing about things that I don't know much about.

And...I'm just busting on you Shipwreck, I'm bored today...
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#13 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostI.K.E., on 31 January 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Problem is, once you get this all rolling, Obama is gonna ban all your high-capacity magazines and your "assault markers" because they look scary. :dodgy: :dodgy: :dodgy: :dodgy:


Haha, I don't know about that...

Maybe if a bunch of people wind up getting killed by them...
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#14 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:03 PM

View PostIrishMack, on 31 January 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

Lol, oh I know I can argue on a lot of topics...this is just one of those ones that I have no clue about :) I try to avoid arguing about things that I don't know much about.

And...I'm just busting on you Shipwreck, I'm bored today...


Well you don't have to be an expert to have thoughts on a subject. Welcome to fantasy land! It's where we invent things :P
So, ideas? Anything specific you'd want included if this were done? Whether you'd want it done or not? Feel free to have an opinion, you're totally allowed! :D

Oh ok...

Why am I so easy to bust upon?


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Posted 03 February 2013 - 04:30 PM

So this is Fantasy Land... Very well, from henceforth you shall refer to me as "The Richest Man on the Forum." :laugh:
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