[redthirst]

Anyone else tired of hearing this?

Anytime someone starts a thread in the Scenario Positions forum, it's filled with smug sounding posts about how either the OP or the person replying is not a (scenario position), but "just a paintballer".

Wow! Thanks for that insightful post! I had no idea I was a paintballer!

Like it or not, there are differences in playstyle. I mostly play with a very light setup: an electro, CF barrel, on gun 68/4500, hopper, and maybe up to 300 extra rounds... I've also been known to play with a pistol, some 12 grams, and a few extra tubes/magazines. The point is: the advice I give to a player who considers himself a "dagger" could be invaluable, while that same advice would be worthless to anyone who considers themselves a "hammer" despite them both being paintballers.

Professional teams have players whose job it is to quickly take ground and make moves (dagger), they also have players whose job it is to stand back, close lanes, and provide suppressive fire (broadsword/hammer), there are also players who do either when the situation demands it (sabre). These tactics are good enough for teams who compete for money and prizes, and I would bet money that a 5-man team that incorporates these tactics will beat any comparably skilled 5 random guys "just playing paintball".

I'd go so far as to guarantee that no team has ever won a tournament where the game-plan was for everyone to "just play paintball."

So if you're one of these people that "just plays paintball", then awesome! The Scenario Position forum probably isn't for you, though.

[The Bear]

In general I believe you have the right idea here. Most teams, and I'd say all competitive teams, have some general from of positions that perform certain basic tasks. They might call them Daggers and Sabers and Hammers, or maybe they're Front and Mid and Back, or maybe Attack and Tape and Cover. But for the most part every team is broken down into the front fast guys who take ground and make eliminations, the back guys who cover and call positions, and the mid guys who hold ground and fill where needed. So in the "team" world of paintball most players can fall into a position.

On the other hand we have to remember that the vast majority of paintball players are the weekend warriors and rec ball players who's only experience with teams is to constantly be beaten on by them. As they become more experienced many of them will find or make teams, but many of them will stay solo and hang at their local fields and find forums like this. To many of the people who are just coming into the sport and see all this stuff about the different positions they may start to think that they have to pick one and play that position only and convert all their gear to that position as well. Others see it as a ploy to get players to buy all the cool specops gear to make that position and tout them as stupid and unnecessary, and that everyone is simply a "paintball player." Many people fall somewhere in between.

Those of us who play with organized teams or a group of regulars can see the benefit of the different positions, whatever they may be called by that group, and utilize them to their advantage. Other players who haven't had that experience may see them differently, depending on how the idea of the positions is represented to them. What we need to remember is that most players, on team and off, will fall into the category specops calls "Saber," the jack of all trades center position. And due to the somewhat consistent performance of many markers (I'm talking in a VERY general sense here, most electros will shoot at least "x" bps, most markers have similar range, etc.) most of the time all that differentiates the positions are the number of pods on your back and your general job on the field. Most players can go back and forth between positions easily between games or even in the middle of one. They are a general guideline for your role on the field at a particular time, and can in some ways dictate your gear as well.

In the end it's up to each individual player as to what they think about positions, what position they want to play (which can vary from day to day and game to game) and how "hardcore" they want to get into a certain position (just leaving a few pods at the staging area to play front or buying the entire SpecOps loadout of marker, cammo, and custom vest made specifically for the Dagger). Either way, those playing on a team know the benefits of having a system of positions, and those who don't play on teams will have to decide for themselves how they feel about the idea.

Bear

This post has been edited by The Bear: 31 January 2011 - 04:35 PM

[Krazy8]

Well. I am one of those guys.

I perscribed to the Dagger ideal for a good long time...then I was told by some one very close to me that I was in fact a ....sabre. Ugh.
Everything I thought of my play style I had to rethink. And MO was right...I in fact am a paintball player! Yeah I know he said sabre but I play everything!

In speedball I can play all locations, I simply need to know so I can gear up accordingly.
In the woods...same thing man. If I am needed to throw paint then I need guys that are going to make the moves and push the field while I give them the chance.
And if they weill not make the moves...I will.

In scenario...medic, engineer, role player, tank killer, turret gunner, general or producer. I have been there.

So I do not wish to catagorize my self into one slot. I am flexible enough to do it all, and I have the team mates that flex right along with me and we just simply do what is needed. Manytimes without communication. We have played together long enough we can read body posture and movement to know what is going to happpen next and what is needed to get it done.

Our sport is flexable for all of us. If you need a dagger...I will grab my tshirt and three pod pack and roll. If you need a hammer...well I will grab a pod monkey and head off in the direction of desired carnige with a grin!

I still ruffle at the sabre comment...have not picked up the patch yet, still trying to convince the right side of my brain that it is true!

[Pirate]

I think part of their point is don't limit yourself to one spot. Even Mike Paxson and Rich Telford get in the snake sometimes.
I know I'll tell people that when they start talking about different positions.

I'll load my pack up with 7+ pods, 90ci tank, and be ready to lay paint, but then end up in the front getting up close and personal. Plus, it really depends on my mood. Not feeling so hot? Play back. But if I start feeling it? I'll start running and diving around like a crazy person.

I hate when I got up to rec games and people start asking me "Okay, what position are you?". I look at them and say "Yes." Then they look at my gear, see 5+ pods and a big air tank (because a 90ci is comfortable to me) and assume I'm playing in the back.

And I'll take my 5 well rounded guys any day. The front guy gets shot out? They can fill in.

[redthirst]

Okay, so you're saying that you don't limit yourself to a single position or set of gear, but play everything? Great. Some people don't play that way.

I'm always in the front with the lightest package I think I can take and not lose effectiveness. I do this when I'm with friends I've played with before, and I do this as a walk on. I've got a friend who's just as constant, but is always in the back with a ton of gear laying down paint.

If we want advice on how to step up our games on this forum, we're not going to go to the same place. The advice I'd look for in the Dagger subforum might be gold for me, but would be worthless to him, and the advice he'd find in the Broadsword subforum might be great for him, but would be equally worthless to me.

"You're just a paintball player" would be worthless to either one of us, though.

I seem to have given the impression that I'm against players that don't use a single playstyle... I'm not sure how anyone came to that conclusion, but I'm not. I'm not against people who play any position. I'm not against people who consider themselves "just paintball players". What I'm against is spam posts in the Scenarion Positions forum like: "you're just a paintball player" or "I'd call you a paintball player" or "positions are stupid, it's all just paintball".

Who has that ever helped?

[Krazy8]

OIC! I get it now!

Well, at least with the scenario posistions the desription is pretty cut and dry to the name.

But I think if I was to compair the things I have seen I would compair Medics to Daggers, Engineers to Sabres, Demolitions to Broadswords and of course as blatant as it could be Generals to Comanders.

For players just getting into scenario I recommend they try out the Medic role. Players new to scenario games tend to let them selves be overwhelmed and kinda wander at random...but when you have that medic armband the teams with jobs to get done tend to want you with them! That exposes the new players to a whole slew of scenerio exposure....gets them truely involved and settles them with a sence of purpose.
They tend to come back wanting more the next time.

[ger]

I get what you mean red, it's a very good thought.

I like your line in the first post re: people who don't necessarily subscribe to the "positions" (I'll paraphrase)... stay out of the Positions Subforums. Admittedly, I'm probably guilty of typing "just a paintballer" at some point in time - likely when it's a new kid who's never played before but just wants to know where he should fit in. For many new players they really do need to just play. More than anything the most important part of paintball should be about having fun, so worrying about positions or having the latest gear should be the last thing on your mind when just starting out. That's typically the slant I take when responding to "What position should I be?"

But when it comes to specific position discussions I typically keep my nose out of it. I'm a "fill-in where I can" kinda guy - my cousin & I are connected to a number of local scenario teams but not members, we just play nice w/ others regardless of our roles . I prefer playing up close to the action as a dagger, though I'm not typically the "guy w/ the flag" unless I have to (too old, i.e. slow)... mostly though I'm a sabre covering the movers, but still spend time barking orders like a commander or sitting in wait along a heavily traveled trail like a sniper when necessary.

In conclusion: I'm me & you're you, lets keep it that way. If someone doesn't "believe" in the positions guide, they shouldn't butt into the dagger subforum discussions. I'll buy that

[The Bear]

Looks like I misread the post as well. In light of your clarification, I still agree with you. If someone doesn't have anything better than "your just a paintball player" to post, then keep it out of the position forums. However, as ger said many new guys do need to play a bit before they start worrying about where they fit in or if they want to follow the SpecOps positions at all. In that case, phrasing "your just a paintball player" a bit differently might be appropriate, such as "Hey, positions are just guidelines for a particular style of play or job on the field, don't worry about which position you should be, just play paintball and see where you fall in. When you find a certain style you seem to like best, start looking through the position descriptions and see what seems the best fit for you. Don't automatically limit yourself to just one either. In the end, we're all just paintball players."

Bear

[IrishMack]

I think that while it can be annoying when people dis some of the different positions, I also do think that there is a huge overemphasis on the positions by some people. While some general ideas as to people's positions are good, it's not really something that we need to get wrapped up in, we are all paintball players, and we shouldn't let ourselves get tied into one "position" and not adapt to whatever may be needed of us at the moment.

[The Stuntman]

The problem is that too many of the "new position" threads are either just fancy ways of describing or mixing existing positions, or they are so narrow/pigeon-holed that they are useless to just about everyone...with scenario specialist positions being the worst offenders.
After a hundred "Atomic Blowgun - the Razorback Dagger Back-man" threads, you just want to bite the ears off of the next person who says something silly in you presence...which can be awkward for everyone involved.

[cdrinkh20]

Exactly... play whatever the game calls for.

Though I have to admit, the "Hammer" position always sounded... pretty much the same as Broadsword to me. Not like you need two guns to get a high ROF these days certainly a lot lighter not to.

[Krazy8]

Well, seeing a real Hammer in use is a thing of beauty. I watched Montydoom hold one flag base by himself for 20+ minutes allowing the rest of us to run the other two flags hard during an SPPL game.
The opposing commander used an air strike to remove Monty from the game, but by then it was far to late since we had the placed locked down.

The power of a well trained Hammer is simply too good to pass up. Then, toss the intimidation of a guy carring over a case of paint on him as he wades accross the field with a waves of othere players and you get a good bit of momentum for your team.

A good Hammer is worth a whole fireteam in a scenario game!

[The Stuntman]

I agree with Krazy...but really has to be seen to be believed.


I figure it like this: the Broadsword is a guy with a fast gun & alot of paint - heavy gunner - duh!
Hammer is the guy who takes the heavy gunner concept to an absurd, ridiculous extreme...so far out there that it needs its own name.

[redthirst]

cdrinkh20, on 02 February 2011 - 01:45 AM, said:

Though I have to admit, the "Hammer" position always sounded... pretty much the same as Broadsword to me. Not like you need two guns to get a high ROF these days certainly a lot lighter not to.

Don't tell Iron_Man that (didn't he used to be called Longballer?), he'll be more than happy to rant about the differences between him and some electro weilding "chump".

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Hey, positions are just guidelines for a particular style of play or job on the field, don't worry about which position you should be, just play paintball and see where you fall in. When you find a certain style you seem to like best, start looking through the position descriptions and see what seems the best fit for you. Don't automatically limit yourself to just one either. In the end, we're all just paintball players.

That would be and excellent and helpful post to any beginer. Much better than "dood, just play paintball."

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I think that while it can be annoying when people dis some of the different positions, I also do think that there is a huge overemphasis on the positions by some people. While some general ideas as to people's positions are good, it's not really something that we need to get wrapped up in, we are all paintball players, and we shouldn't let ourselves get tied into one "position" and not adapt to whatever may be needed of us at the moment.

I agree that any decent player is flexible in game. If it's just me and another player who considers himself a "dagger" or "front man" and one of us needs to make a bunker run, I'll be more than happy to provide covering fire... but just because I can provide covering fire and am willing to do so in game doesn't mean that's my preferred playstyle. 95% of the time I'll be doing the running and bunkering, so if I go to a forum to discuss paintball tactics or give advice, I'd like to know that information isn't being wasted on someone whose playstyle is completely different from mine.

The Spec Ops Based Positions subforums used to be one such place that guaranteed that. Those areas are basically dead now and it's not hard to see why: any time a new player asks for advice on how to play a certain postition, they're told ad infinitum that positions are a marketing ploy and to just play paintball. If I were new, I wouldn't ask for advice on how to be a light/med/heavy gunner either.

Quote

The problem is that too many of the "new position" threads are either just fancy ways of describing or mixing existing positions, or they are so narrow/pigeon-holed that they are useless to just about everyone...with scenario specialist positions being the worst offenders.
After a hundred "Atomic Blowgun - the Razorback Dagger Back-man" threads, you just want to bite the ears off of the next person who says something silly in you presence...which can be awkward for everyone involved.

I completely understand that and I get a little annoyed, too, at threads trying to split a position into the tiniest possible catagories for no reason... I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, people who want to make "sniper with night optics" and official position because they have night vision goggles and like the sound of "knife in the dark" or "night stalker". Still, though, if anyone doesn't have anything better to say than "just go play paintball", then they shoudn't post. It's not hard. In fact, it's easier than posting.

[cdrinkh20]

Lord knows Iron_Man would xD