Special Ops Paintball: FPO vs BYOP - Special Ops Paintball

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FPO vs BYOP Ever thought about it? Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   tacmedic 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 10:17 AM

New guy here, be gentle but....
It's paintball. Pay for what you want. I have heard no golfer complain about paying higher prices at a higher end golf course.

It is the same thing for us. If I go to a higher end park, CPX in my area, I expect to pay a higher fee for the day. It makes no difference how I pay my money. If I buy a bunch of paint at Wally-world, and then go to a lower rent park, I still pay nearly as much.

Yes we are held to a brand or two of paint at an FPO field. This could be a pro/con depending on the paint that the firld has chosen. I would love to use First Strike rounds but I make the choice to go to fields where they aren't allowed. That is the thing to remember. If I chose to go to Park X, my gear must fit that park.

Either way our chosen hobby is expensive just like any other hobby. Vetching about where the money goes is really insignifigant. Enjoy the time spent with your GF/Wife. I personally would spend the extra money to go to a well groomed and safe environment if my wife would even think of coming with me to play.



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#17 User is offline   D Monster 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 10:32 AM

Yes Red...CPX is one of my examples.
I understand that fields need to make paint sales to help there margin...I can even understand how FPO is a good(hell, a great!) source of revenue for paintball fields.
I would say a better way to explain my view is that to me fields by and large price their FPO paint at a level that smacks of profiteering.
Let's use CPX as an example..
They only have one paint available for use...Marballizer.
Marballizer sells in most retail loacations for ~$70 for a case of 2000. That is retail price, after the seller has already placed their mark-up and margin on the wholesale price.
Using a standard mark-up equations any math nerd knows.
Margin
If the cost for an item is $50 and you want a 30% margin:(Which is a damn good margin)

$50 / (100%-30%)
$50 / (70%)
$50 / .70 = $71.43

COST / (100%-GM%) = SELLING PRICE

You can also include what is known as base overhead factor (BOF). That ranges from 1.25% to 5%(which is pretty high). The same margin with the BOF method, in this case 5%, would be as follows:
$50 / (100%-30%-5%)
$50 / (65%)
$50 / .65 = $76.92

COST / (100%-GM%-BOF%) = SELLING PRICE

Now we can use this to find the rough wholesale cost of an item, but going the other way with the math.

SELLING PRICE * (100%-30%-5%) = WHOLESALE
$76.92 * .65 = $50 (actually 49.99)

therefor at $69 retail, using the high-end mark-up and margin we get to a wholesale price of
$69 * .65 = $44.85
Or around $45 dollars, which should be in-line with what CPX is paying per unit for a case of paint, provided they have not negotiated a 'sweetheart' deal.

So then at the CPX 'retail' price of $90 per case we get this equation.

$90 * X = $44.85
solving for X yields a margin of 50%...basically charging twice what they pay...getting paid what they pay for a case TWICE for every case they sell.

I have no problem paying for paint...even paying a good margin to field owners. I just don't like it when I am forced to pay more than is reasonable.
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#18 User is offline   d4rkmonkey 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 05:50 PM

View PostD Monster, on 09 January 2011 - 12:32 PM, said:



I have no problem paying for paint...even paying a good margin to field owners. I just don't like it when I am forced to pay more than is reasonable.


No one is forcing you to do pay anything. If you don't like it, don't play at that field. Simple as that. Its a business and as a business its a allowed to set its own prices. Thats like complaining that Harvey's apple pies cost $1.39 and mcdonalds apple pies cost $0.99.
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#19 User is offline   D Monster 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 06:48 PM

View Postd4rkmonkey, on 09 January 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one is forcing you to do pay anything. If you don't like it, don't play at that field. Simple as that. Its a business and as a business its a allowed to set its own prices. Thats like complaining that Harvey's apple pies cost $1.39 and mcdonalds apple pies cost $0.99.


Ok...I give.
It is totally ok to over charge me at any field I go to.
Ever.
Because that is just the way it is...that is what fields have to do to get by.

I was silly to question what I see as possible unfair business practice, because it is just the way fields operate.
Again, sorry for expecting to have a say in how I am treated as a customer.
You're right...I should take my money to one of the OTHER fields that are FPO, and also have a mark up the equates to no less than 75% profit.
Because that is how fields make their money.
They are selling me Paint...not Paintball.
Right?
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#20 User is offline   ger 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 07:20 PM

Adjusting the prices at an FPO facility is kind of a "6 of one, half dozen of the other" scenario. If it's $15 for field/air + $85 for a case of paint - or - $30 for field/air + $50 for a case of paint... in the end they equal out. On the occasion you shoot more than a case the lower paint price option would certainly be cheaper though. Truthfully, I think there are fields out there that realize people are shooting a crap-ton of paint anymore & have bumped the prices to help make a few more bucks. The moral is shoot less paint... or stop bringing your wife ;), jk.

I don't know how CPX is... if you don't shoot all the paint you bought do they allow you to bring it back the next weekend & shoot it? Does each player have to buy a full case each time they play, or do they sell bags? My local field is FPO & I'm fine w/ it, because they allow bringing their field paint back. It helps they have a contract w/ RPS for custom fill/shell colors so monitoring the paint is easy for the staff.

I feel my field charges a fair price for paint - we are something like $55 for basic & $65 for tournament grade. Field fee is $15 w/ all day air/co2 $5/$9 respectively. The nice thing is anyone can show up on an open play day & play for only the field fee if they still have paint/air left from the week before. I buy a membership which pays for itself after 7 events, so field fee/air is waved & I only ever pay for paint (at 10% discount).

I get what your complaint is, there certainly are fields who absolutely price gouge w/ their paint (Skirmish comes to mind, which is why I don't ever see myself making the relatively short trip). We, as consumers, are price gouged in a lot of ways... not just paint sales. The way to fight that is not buy from those who are doing it. In the end though, as previously stated, you have a choice. If you don't want to overpay for FPO, then don't play at an FPO facility. You aren't "silly" for questioning it, you are silly if you expect us all to stand up & revolt, or at the least expect us all to completely agree w/ you :D. You asked the question & got some people to agree (sort-of) & some to disagree (sort-of)... & the discussion continues.
ger
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#21 User is offline   Private Silver 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 07:47 PM

Ger, where do you play if you live close to skirmish? I live maybe an hour away from there, and for cheaper prices would be willing for that extra bit of driving. Only place I can think of is EMR, and even they are now up to like $80 a case
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#22 User is offline   tacmedic 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 08:37 PM

You can bring back field paint to CPX.


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#23 User is offline   Mehphisto 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:18 PM

View PostD Monster, on 09 January 2011 - 07:48 PM, said:

View Postd4rkmonkey, on 09 January 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one is forcing you to do pay anything. If you don't like it, don't play at that field. Simple as that. Its a business and as a business its a allowed to set its own prices. Thats like complaining that Harvey's apple pies cost $1.39 and mcdonalds apple pies cost $0.99.


Ok...I give.
It is totally ok to over charge me at any field I go to.
Ever.
Because that is just the way it is...that is what fields have to do to get by.

I was silly to question what I see as possible unfair business practice, because it is just the way fields operate.
Again, sorry for expecting to have a say in how I am treated as a customer.
You're right...I should take my money to one of the OTHER fields that are FPO, and also have a mark up the equates to no less than 75% profit.
Because that is how fields make their money.
They are selling me Paint...not Paintball.
Right?

Just because you have to use field paint doesn't mean they are over charging you, and if you see that as an unfair business practice you should probably raise your standards of unfair a little.

Think about it like a trip to the movies. Just because you buy a ticket to the movie doesn't mean you can bring in your own candy and soda. Instead you have to pay for their tasty treats. They may not have the exact kind of soda that you are accustomed to, but that's life.

I see that you also mentioned Monster Balls in your original post. That is yet another reason that fields use FPO. Cheap walmart paint (especially Monster Balls) are horrible for two main reasons. The first is the most obvious to the players, they hurt ridiculously bad. Renters are scared enough to get hit by normal paintballs, let alone the marbles that Brass Eagle and other paint companies try to pass off as paintballs. So guess what happens after someone gets shot by one of those ridiculously thick shelled paintballs? Their perception of paintball changes. They think that getting shot once hurt that bad, so they don't really want to play anymore.

Cheap paint is a lot more likely to stain that the higher quality paintballs that the field sells. Some people like their gear clean and don't want it getting stained by cheap paint, I know I wouldn't want mine stained. This part is a lot more noticeable to the people that run and maintain the field than it is to the players, but it is still relevant. Cheap paint stains not only player's gear, but also bunkers. I can't think of a field owner in the world that wants the bunkers they spent all that time and money to get stained permanently because someone wanted to save $10 on a case. So instead of risking it, it's easier to sell your own paint that you know won't stain anything.
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#24 User is offline   D Monster 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:51 PM

View PostMehphisto, on 09 January 2011 - 10:18 PM, said:


Just because you have to use field paint doesn't mean they are over charging you, and if you see that as an unfair business practice you should probably raise your standards of unfair a little.

Think about it like a trip to the movies. Just because you buy a ticket to the movie doesn't mean you can bring in your own candy and soda. Instead you have to pay for their tasty treats. They may not have the exact kind of soda that you are accustomed to, but that's life.





I have heard this argument before.
Let me ask you this...do I HAVE to buy popcorn to see a movie?
Or soda? or candy?
Nope. Might be nice...but not needed.

Do I have to have paintballs to play?
Yup.
Apples to oranges. FPO is not the same thing as movie popcorn.
If you want to use a movie theater analogy...try paying $7.50 for a seat and $25 for the film to be turned on once you are seated.

I agree monsterballs suck, they rarely break well and the fill is crape... however again I reference ASTM F1979 - 10 that performance issues and personal preferences aside....paint is paint.
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#25 User is offline   D Monster 

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 10:49 PM

Ok.
I have a confession to make.

In all seriousness, the discussion we have been having has changed my mind a bit.

I came into this with the idea that FPO was all around bad business, just a way for the field to make money off of the player unreasonably.
To be honest, I have been swayed a bit to see how FPO can be a good thing for fields.
I can see how it not only help insure a fields survival by insuring the profit margin, but also how it can help level the consistency of play somewhat.
I can even understand how FPO is actually good for me the player...by helping make fields be more stable business enterprises.

The debate has also help me to pin down what bothered me so much about many of my experiences with FPO, what in truth bothers me still.
I will say it this way.
I understand the benefits of FPO, but knowing them still makes me question whether the price point of some fields is good business.
Not good business in the "Are we making a profit?" style, but in the "Are we providing honest service to our customers?"
I have no issue with paying slightly more than retail for paint at a field(who most likely are NOT paying retail, but wholesale for the paint)...but when that price is skewed to a point where overt profiteering is evident it still bothers me.

Does that make sense?
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#26 User is offline   cdrinkh20 

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 11:12 AM

At least you guys HAVE BYOP fields :P I guess I could try to find outlaw, but again, no time to ball during school -_- which is why I went out yesterday for my first time at an indoor field to finally test that Mag I've been working on...

Only to find my remote line twists itself enough to cut off my air to my Longbow -_- TANGENT!

And yes, I agree - literally doubling the price they pay is a little much for paint.
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#27 User is offline   Mehphisto 

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 12:18 PM

View Postcdrinkh20, on 10 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

And yes, I agree - literally doubling the price they pay is a little much for paint.

You do realize that's how retail works, right?
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#28 User is offline   D Monster 

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 12:26 PM

View PostMehphisto, on 10 January 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

View Postcdrinkh20, on 10 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

And yes, I agree - literally doubling the price they pay is a little much for paint.

You do realize that's how retail works, right?

By doubling?
No...retail is a mark up of between 10%-20% normally. 30% is considered high margin.

Most of the time a mark-up past 20% requires some special circumstances such as a monopoly or 'company store' scenario, both of which are currently illegal by and large.
Thank you Standard Oil.
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#29 User is offline   d4rkmonkey 

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 01:47 PM

View PostD Monster, on 09 January 2011 - 08:48 PM, said:

View Postd4rkmonkey, on 09 January 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one is forcing you to do pay anything. If you don't like it, don't play at that field. Simple as that. Its a business and as a business its a allowed to set its own prices. Thats like complaining that Harvey's apple pies cost $1.39 and mcdonalds apple pies cost $0.99.


Ok...I give.
It is totally ok to over charge me at any field I go to.
Ever.
Because that is just the way it is...that is what fields have to do to get by.

I was silly to question what I see as possible unfair business practice, because it is just the way fields operate.
Again, sorry for expecting to have a say in how I am treated as a customer.
You're right...I should take my money to one of the OTHER fields that are FPO, and also have a mark up the equates to no less than 75% profit.
Because that is how fields make their money.
They are selling me Paint...not Paintball.
Right?


You're not silly to question unfair business practice, you're silly to bother making a thread about it and trying to have a discussion about it. Money is the language of business, if you think a businesses prices are unfair, let your wallet to the talking, don't give them your money.

I personally don't think that any of the prices are unfair. Its not like they're forcing you to play that that field. Thats their prices, and in a free market its up to them to set their own prices. If anything, its unfair for you to say that a field must abide by your rules for setting prices.

As for talking about mark up...when you're comparing average mark up compare solely to other fields, not all other retail opportunities. Selling clothes in a store is different then selling paint for players to use on a field.
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#30 User is offline   Mehphisto 

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 03:17 PM

View PostD Monster, on 10 January 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

View PostMehphisto, on 10 January 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

View Postcdrinkh20, on 10 January 2011 - 12:12 PM, said:

And yes, I agree - literally doubling the price they pay is a little much for paint.

You do realize that's how retail works, right?

By doubling?
No...retail is a mark up of between 10%-20% normally. 30% is considered high margin.

Most of the time a mark-up past 20% requires some special circumstances such as a monopoly or 'company store' scenario, both of which are currently illegal by and large.
Thank you Standard Oil.

Not true. It actually depends completely on what you are selling. For some things, like food or clothing, it may be 10%-20%, for others it can be a lot higher. Alcohol is one example I can think off of the top of my head. Bars and restaurants pay as little as 30%-40% of what they sell their alcohol for. This means they are more more than double or sometimes tripling what they pay. It all depends one what product you are talking about.
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