[Warpaint]

Puzuma, on Jun 27 2010, 11:09 AM, said:

...Is there such a thing as too much freedom?

Yes, when it is not balanced with or tempered by responsibility.

[Cuy'val Dar]

MurderDeathKill, on Jun 27 2010, 08:15 AM, said:

Cuy, on Jun 25 2010, 04:59 PM, said:

When your women launch a missile, or maichine gun another plane do they see the expression the other person's face? do they see his/her mangled body? no. I'm not trying to say that the women in the Air force aren't damned fine soldiers, but air combat and infantry combat are very different.

If you're curious sometime, and a little sadistic, youtube up some gun-camera footage. I'm not linking any because *I* don't even like to look at it. Suffice it to say, you see the hell out of the mangled bodies. So..... not really buying that argument.

So I looked at about 10 videos. I couldnt really see anything. It could be I'm not trained to see it, but it's possible what with all the parts of the plane flying around. This one goes either way with me. Thanks for backing your side up.

[PistolWhipped]

You know what. Look at the Lioness Program. Those women went through the same Basic Training the males did. And looking at some of the stuff, most of those ladies could probably kick my ass. While Infantry will likely forever remain a male-dominated field, lets face it, is a girl wants to kick some ass, she can be as, if not, more ruthless than any other guy on the squad.

That said, I still say if women are going into Infantry, there be either all female squads, or at the very least, multiple females in any squads that are of mixed genders. It would head off most rapes and false rape accusations at the same time. Because let's face it, there is a sexual dynamic an most groups of men and women.

I also think women on the whole have the potential to better fill the "sharpshooter" roles in our military. Women have better fine motor skills than men, and accurate shooting is definitely a fine motor skill.

[MurderDeathKill]

Quote

So I looked at about 10 videos. I couldnt really see anything. It could be I'm not trained to see it, but it's possible what with all the parts of the plane flying around. This one goes either way with me. Thanks for backing your side up.

Oh, I didn't mean the air-to-air stuff. That almost never happens anymore... I was talking about CAS and air-to-ground.

Here is about the most vanilla-looking one I could find for ya. We've got women flying around, blowing ten men at a time in half and loitering with night-vision long enough to watch them all bleed to death. It's not a nice business, and women are doing just fine in it. Time to integrate.

[Cuy'val Dar]

I do see what you mean now lol.

[The Scout]

Alright, I ain't claiming to know any more about the Air Force or anything, but you said women in the Infantry. And as far as I'm concerned Infantry means 03, either -11's, -31's (God's MOS), -41's, -51's, -52's, -17's, and -21's. Thats it for grunts, sure you got comm guys and Corpsmen, but they still ain't grunts. And as my position as a 31 in the Marine Corps, I say HELL NO to women in grunt units. There is no way that will ever work well.

Call me sexist or closed minded, whatever. I love women to death, I acually have a woman that I dearly love, but there is no way on God's green earth that I ever want women to be in grunt units. In my opinion they shouldn't even be in my Corps because of the way all the guys gawk and flirt instead of getting their jobs done. If you were in a military unit, I take that back, if you were in a Marine grunt unit you would understand what I'm talking about.

Women's bodies are not built like males. I don't care if she's smarter and whatever else, when it comes to dragging a casualty or carrying a pack or whatever else, women can't haul a man's load. Besides, if you see your buddy drop in combat sure thats a tragedy and it will hurt some but you will know you gotta take care of the bad dudes first and then take care of him. But if a girl goes down? Damn, thats a tragedy and thats going to give you pause, and that is not a good thing.

[PistolWhipped]

By the same token, I know a few Machine Gunners in the 82nd that a lot of dudes wouldn't be able to carry or drag. It'd take 2 guy to haul some of those guys around. I can easily see 2 women dragging another woman to safety if we're talking all female squads. If there is a guy, 2 girls would probably be able to drag him too. And he could drag one or two of them if needed.

Teamwork. Solves a lot of problems.

[The Scout]

Whose providing security while those TWO females are dragging the casualty? You have 4 guys in a fireteam, five for trucks but thats not something to be discussed here. Instead of having one person on the casualty and two providing security you are cutting your security in half by having two people drag instead of just the one.

Whats the purpose behind an all female squad? First off you couldn't have one full female squad and then a couple other squads in the platoon of males, it just won't work. Second, that female squad will come behind every single male squad unless the male squad is full of a bunch of jackasses and they shouldn't all be clumped in the same squad anyway.

Whats the point? So women can feel equal to men? They'd get wiped out or captured, and then how big of a disaster will that be to see some female in the military getting her head lopped off? They would be a target for every enemy fighting force in the world to make an example. So we're going to waste lives just for the sake of a good feeling? What kind of stupidity is that?

[Puzuma]

WWII, Russia... had something like 800,000 women in the military. well over 50% fought in the front lines.
Israel conscripts women and assigns some drafted women to infantry combatant service which places them directly in the line of enemy fire.

Women CAN do the job. The problem is that North American culture refuses to see women as anything but soft, dainty and delicate. The "combat is a man's world" mentality is a load of bull that only the men are clinging to. It's these same assclowns that insist a woman should do the cooking and cleaning.

[TREE FITTY]

The Scout, on 20 August 2010 - 07:19 AM, said:

Whose providing security while those TWO females are dragging the casualty? You have 4 guys in a fireteam, five for trucks but thats not something to be discussed here. Instead of having one person on the casualty and two providing security you are cutting your security in half by having two people drag instead of just the one.
Depends on you have mixed up the firing team, doesn't it? If it's a mix of male and female, what, two men, two females? One female, three males? Three females, one male? If a man goes down, 2/3 scenarios a male can drag that casualty to safety. The last scenario is up for debate. Would the military put a female in a combat environment if she didn't have the strength to pull a man in gear? I believe that there's probably a good chance they'd be train for that. And if there is a squad of four females, wouldn't the same thinking apply? A female can drag a man, female can drag a female?

Whats the purpose behind an all female squad? First off you couldn't have one full female squad and then a couple other squads in the platoon of males, it just won't work. Second, that female squad will come behind every single male squad unless the male squad is full of a bunch of jackasses and they shouldn't all be clumped in the same squad anyway.
Purpose behind an all female squad? Well. We've talked about my traits females possess earlier in the thread, any of these advantages might be present. And other than stating "It just won't work," explain why. I have talked to infantry buffs before, some who have said themselves that female infantry would be fine as long as the job gets done the same. But alas, I'm sure we both can pull examples and arguments to support both sides. And why would female squads be behind male squads? Because they're female? Weaker? Not as "pumped, jacked," or "hyped for war?" "Unless the male squad is full of a bunch of jackasses" That's woman's only chance? The BEST woman can't compare with the WORST MAN unless he's an utter jackass? I can't bring myself to believe that. Pistol had it right with Lioness. Look it up.

Whats the point? So women can feel equal to men? They'd get wiped out or captured, and then how big of a disaster will that be to see some female in the military getting her head lopped off? They would be a target for every enemy fighting force in the world to make an example. So we're going to waste lives just for the sake of a good feeling? What kind of stupidity is that?
The point is to allow the people of the U.S. to have the same rights as each other. And ALL females would get wiped out or captured? Does that make the men that have been captured "women?" Sorry, that's faulty logic. But so is thinking every female would just give up and surrender. In my pool group at m recruiting station, there are two females that come to mind that just don't back down. Out of 45 kids there, they rank up as 10 and 14 last I checked according to our Combat Fitness Test, which is a 880 meter sprint, 30 pound ammo can lift (as many times in 2 minutes as possible) and a maneuvering drill that's 200 yards of crawling, sprinting, buddy drags and carries, ammo can lifts, grenade toss, and sprinting with 60 pounds of ammo. But the guy who came in LAST PLACE has more right than that female in 10th? ran faster with an equal load? more endurance on the sprints? lifted ammo cans more? That doesn't make sense to me at all. Yeah, it would be a tragedy to see a female be beheaded or raped or tortured by some terrorist cell. By any enemy. I'm sure females understand the risks just as well as males when they enlist in the infantry. If not, the training WILL weed them out. I'd like to think the females that do enlist would gladly take that risk if it meant serving their country they way they believe they should serve. We're not fighting every fighting force in the world. Other forces are already using female combat specialists and infantry. It's foolish to think that if we had female infantry and went to war with them that the opposing force's strategy would be nuke the women. A soldier is a soldier because a soldier earned the title. A warrior is a warrior because that warrior earned that title. Standards are key, I believe.

It's more than some "good feeling" to women. Strangely enough, South park had it right with the Race Wars. In a weird way, the same thinking can be used here. WE don't get it. You'll get it when you see you don't get it. We are men, enabled, allowed, unrestricted by social standards or blocks. WE don't get it, because WE never struggled. There was never any Male Right's movement, we just claimed it and had it, and muscled out the "inferior." The women today have soul that crushes females of the past, and the mindset that they're inferior makes me boil inside. How is it a life wasted if that life is spent the way they felt was right? In their heart? When she does her job, saves one life or takes one in the name of our country or freedom, instills safety in one region of the world alongside our armed forces, how is that life wasted should it be lost? There is no stupidity in that... It's just giving rights to those who have earned it.

[PistolWhipped]

The Scout, on 20 August 2010 - 09:19 AM, said:

Whose providing security while those TWO females are dragging the casualty? You have 4 guys in a fireteam, five for trucks but thats not something to be discussed here. Instead of having one person on the casualty and two providing security you are cutting your security in half by having two people drag instead of just the one.

Whats the purpose behind an all female squad? First off you couldn't have one full female squad and then a couple other squads in the platoon of males, it just won't work. Second, that female squad will come behind every single male squad unless the male squad is full of a bunch of jackasses and they shouldn't all be clumped in the same squad anyway.

Whats the point? So women can feel equal to men? They'd get wiped out or captured, and then how big of a disaster will that be to see some female in the military getting her head lopped off? They would be a target for every enemy fighting force in the world to make an example. So we're going to waste lives just for the sake of a good feeling? What kind of stupidity is that?

See . . .

Puzuma, on 20 August 2010 - 10:10 AM, said:

WWII, Russia... had something like 800,000 women in the military. well over 50% fought in the front lines.
Israel conscripts women and assigns some drafted women to infantry combatant service which places them directly in the line of enemy fire.

Women CAN do the job. The problem is that North American culture refuses to see women as anything but soft, dainty and delicate. The "combat is a man's world" mentality is a load of bull that only the men are clinging to. It's these same assclowns that insist a woman should do the cooking and cleaning.

Apparently nobody told the female Partisan Snipers of Russia that they weren't cut out for the job.

 Kovpak_partisanki.jpg (33.5K)
Number of downloads: 1

Or, as has been named numerous times, the Lioness Program of the same USMC you so proudly mention yourself a member of. Are you telling me a soldier of the Lioness Program, who went through the same BASIC you did, and extensive training on top of that, is somehow less of a soldier because she doesn't have a nutbladder like you do? Get over yourself.

[The Scout]

Question my claim as a Marine, fine I don't really care. Get it right though, its Marine not soldier, big difference bud.

And do you guys realize how the lioness progam REALLY works? I'm not saying what you've read online, I'm saying actually know what it does? Because what you learn from schooling or from books is way different than the way it really is. The first thing they told me after graduating from ITB after boot was forget everything you just learned. We'll show you how its really done. And they were right.

I'm not smart enough to prove my argument correct, I just don't have that gift I guess. But if you guys want a straight answer find a Marine in the Infantry and ask him if he thinks it would work. I would bet my Phantom, which I haven't gotten to use in a year, that every single Marine in my Company would give you a straight no. I'd bet even the entire battalion would say the same. I understand your argument, sure women are great, I know many of them. I happen to be the son of one of the best out there, but they still don't belong there.

And proving themselves at boot camp? Hah, thats a joke. Boot camp is all about drill and things that we don't even use in the grunts. And extensive training? Women and all the pogs go to MCT, I went to ITB, which is a month longer and taught a much different way.

This post has been edited by The Scout: 25 August 2010 - 06:49 AM