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"Coexist" Bumper Stickers

#121 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 05:25 AM

View PostAshrak, on Jun 13 2010, 09:37 PM, said:

Your analogy doesn't even come close to what the situation. Under Islamic Law:

...

The issue at hand is not merely one of following the letters of the law, but what the laws being followed actually entail. This is Islam and stamping your feet and loudly protesting "NUH-UH!" isn't going to change jack squat about the Islamic legal system which is in force, among other places, in Afghanistan and Iraq! Iraqi Christians in Mosul have been butchered and run out of Iraq just like the Jews were run out of Europe (how many times?). Where is the outrage? Where is the support from the Muslim world for the disenfranchised religious minorities who live in their midst?

My analogy comes pretty close to what the situation...... yeah. Or need I remind you of what America was like a couple of years ago?

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Why not slaughter them as they sleep? What logical reason is there not to? Minimal risk to a poor, cowardly peasant.

Because there are 19,999 others with guns, bombs, and IEDs who regularly, frequently, and excitedly murder innocent women and children in the most gruesome and terrifying way imaginable. Maybe. I mean I'm just throwing that out there as one POSSIBLE reason why. Christ, man, it's like you'd be pissed off at the entire city of Chicago for having a mafia presence. These people are FRAGing SCARY.

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Well have fun being a glorified human shield for a 'warrior people' brave enough to dig IED holes for $5 a day but not brave enough to strange a sleeping jihadist. :D

Have fun at the protest.

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Well, lets see: billions of dollars in American aid, gratis, a well trained and equipped military, knowledge of the terrain, and numerical advantage. As Thalion noted, when they try, Pakistan gets results. But they don't try very hard for very long. And do you really think that the ISI - as deeply involved as they are with the Taliban - couldn't roll them up in short order? Remember that stretch when Terry commanders were being bagged awfully and unusually quickly? The ISI is perfectly capable of dealing with the Taliban. They simply choose not to because it isn't in their best interests to do so.

You're as under-informed as our good friend Tommy Towne. One honest and comprehensive look at Pakistan will show you this.

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And articles showing Afghan military success in killing assorted numbers of Taliban insurgents answers my question as to why Afghan peasants shout Death to America...how? Surely if we were good allies, their people would not wish death upon the American warriors going into harm's way for their sake, right?

They're fighting them just as hard as we are.... and they're dying for it, more often than we are. And not just the soldiers, like we're losing -- these people are losing their homes, their children, their wives... and you act as if they weren't even fighting.

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You did notice where the Afghan Constitution outlawing apostasy hasn't been changed, right? And where child marriage and rape is rampant in Afghanistan, right? They want Shari'a Law. They protest when they do not have it.

Rome wasn't burned down in a day.

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What great friends!

And yet for all your judging, they are our allies. Kind of gives credence to the thought that two different religions can "Coexist," don't it.

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Yes, we have. Thalion visited Israel and the West Bank for crying out loud.

.... okay.

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"If Christianity teaches humility, tolerance, and forgiveness, why are so many Christians arrogant, intolerant, and vindictive?"

Is that, like, a rhetorical question?

... as an aside..... any bumper sticker that can inspire this much discussion kicks ass.

This post has been edited by MurderDeathKill: 14 June 2010 - 05:36 AM

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#122 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 06:40 AM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 07:25 AM, said:

Because there are 19,999 others with guns, bombs, and IEDs who regularly, frequently, and excitedly murder innocent women and children in the most gruesome and terrifying way imaginable. Maybe. I mean I'm just throwing that out there as one POSSIBLE reason why. Christ, man, it's like you'd be pissed off at the entire city of Chicago for having a mafia presence. These people are FRAGing SCARY.


But, I thought you said there weren't that many of them in the scheme of things.

And if this nation is so incapable of centralized rule, then there should only be a few in a village. Should be easy enough to eliminate, especially without witnesses to who killed the jihadist overnight.

Chicago is extremely different from there. Your odds of getting caught by law enforcement for dealing with a problem they will not is far higher. The odds someone in said law enforcement you will deal with being tainted by the organized crime is also moderately risky.

And the people of Chicago aren't digging holes for IEDs (or, should that be cement shoes to follow the analogy?)

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You're as under-informed as our good friend Tommy Towne. One honest and comprehensive look at Pakistan will show you this.


Right. Because he's making false statements about a religion and religious figure without any argument behind it. :D

Look, I know it sucks when you first start to see the reality of what's going on over there. I was advocating the mission 6-7 years ago. Then I learned about what we were really up against.

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They're fighting them just as hard as we are.... and they're dying for it, more often than we are. And not just the soldiers, like we're losing -- these people are losing their homes, their children, their wives... and you act as if they weren't even fighting.


And yet, there are a lot less of them doing this than there are peasants shouting "Death to America."

I already acknowledged a small minority fighting with us. You're not proving anything new.

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Rome wasn't burned down in a day.


That's ok. We can come back and be their friends when they decide to change. But don't be surprised if they won't.

I'm not saying we have to agree 100% with someone to be an ally, but they should at least have more in common with us than with our enemy. So far, I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between the majority of the Afghan population and our jihadist opponents - the jihadists have just started acting on what they think instead of sitting back (or just offering support roles)

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And yet for all your judging, they are our allies. Kind of gives credence to the thought that two different religions can "Coexist," don't it.


Individuals can coexist. That is nothing new, nor has anyone argued to the contrary. However, the Islamic system under Sharia law as prescribed in the Qu'ran is incompatible with Western ideas, religious or secular.

It is not possible for a Westerner such as yourself to live as you prefer in an Islamic state society. A Muslim can live as he so chooses in (most) non-Islamic nations however, so long as he does not take action against others. And in said non-Islamic nation, you too can live as you choose.

As I said - individuals can coexist. But some systems are simply incompatible.

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Yes, we have. Thalion visited Israel and the West Bank for crying out loud.

.... okay.


You said "have you talked to Muslims?" That's where that came from.

Have I talked to Muslims? Yep. They don't like us. They were dancing in the streets with full scale celebrations when word of 9/11 reached the West Bank. And 9/11 was something they were keen on bringing up to those of us who returned after that.

I'd be happy to expand upon my experience there, but I suspect it won't really impact the discussion.

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"If Christianity teaches humility, tolerance, and forgiveness, why are so many Christians arrogant, intolerant, and vindictive?"

Is that, like, a rhetorical question?


I believe the point is that if so many Christians can ignore part of what Christianity teaches, then it is equally possible that many Muslims ignore the "jihadist" parts of Islam. Just because a Christian isn't X, Y, and Z does not mean X, Y, and Z are not teachings or parts of Christianity. By the same bit, if a Muslim (even many Muslims) does not practice jihad, that does not mean jihad is not a part of the Islamic teachings. One simply has to go to the source to determine the instructions of a religion.

This post has been edited by Thalion: 14 June 2010 - 06:42 AM

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#123 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:22 AM

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 06:40 AM, said:

But, I thought you said there weren't that many of them in the scheme of things.

And if this nation is so incapable of centralized rule, then there should only be a few in a village. Should be easy enough to eliminate, especially without witnesses to who killed the jihadist overnight.

Proving my point on ignorance, I suppose... Or maybe you're trying to make an alternate point? Either way, this is way off. Sheep don't hunt wolves.

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Chicago is extremely different from there. Your odds of getting caught by law enforcement for dealing with a problem they will not is far higher. The odds someone in said law enforcement you will deal with being tainted by the organized crime is also moderately risky. And the people of Chicago aren't digging holes for IEDs (or, should that be cement shoes to follow the analogy?)

And? You're making excuses for why violent people would abstain from violence, not explaining why peaceful people abiding crime is different in the USA than in Afghanistan. The mafia's terror tactics worked fine against us in the 40's; if there's a difference between them and the Taliban, it's that the taliban is better at the game.

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Right. Because he's making false statements about a religion and religious figure without any argument behind it. :dodgy:

No... because... he's under-informed.

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Look, I know it sucks when you first start to see the reality of what's going on over there. I was advocating the mission 6-7 years ago. Then I learned about what we were really up against.

And you quit. There's a word for that -- I'll give you a hint, it's not pragmatism.

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And yet, there are a lot less of them doing this than there are peasants shouting "Death to America." I already acknowledged a small minority fighting with us. You're not proving anything new.

I actually kind of have a thing for underdogs. Especially ones who are risking so much for such a noble idea.

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That's ok. We can come back and be their friends when they decide to change. But don't be surprised if they won't.

I won't, if we back out, because how the FRAG are the good guys supposed to feel when we turn our backs on them and leave them to the FRAGing dogs? That's savagery.

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I'm not saying we have to agree 100% with someone to be an ally, but they should at least have more in common with us than with our enemy. So far, I'm not seeing a whole lot of difference between the majority of the Afghan population and our jihadist opponents - the jihadists have just started acting on what they think instead of sitting back (or just offering support roles)

And you continue to make light of the sacrifices of brave people literally at risk of spontaneously exploding 24/7/365. You can't begin to understand what these people have to deal with on a daily basis -- and when they started so well-off in the first place, too. You hate their lack of action but you haven't seen their suffering and you don't understand their loss... tell me, what are YOU doing to fight our jihadist opponents?

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As I said - individuals can coexist. But some systems are simply incompatible.

I'll just point you back to the list of our islamic nation allies, since I think you missed something there. It's not impossible, we're DOING IT. Literally right now.

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You said "have you talked to Muslims?" That's where that came from.

Have I talked to Muslims? Yep. They don't like us. They were dancing in the streets with full scale celebrations when word of 9/11 reached the West Bank. And 9/11 was something they were keen on bringing up to those of us who returned after that.

I'd be happy to expand upon my experience there, but I suspect it won't really impact the discussion.

I've talked to guys from Boston who were dancing in the streets when the Yankees lost the series.


Gotta run, I'll be on later.
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#124 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:43 AM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 12:22 PM, said:

No... because... he's under-informed.


Lunch break post:

Show me explicitly how I have misinterpreted Muhammad's admonitions for Muslims to wage Jihad.

Quote me Qur'anic chapter and verse while factoring in Abrogation.

If I am so, so, so wrong, it shouldn't be that hard to disprove me on a matter of Islamic law and theology.
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#125 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 10:05 AM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 11:22 AM, said:

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Look, I know it sucks when you first start to see the reality of what's going on over there. I was advocating the mission 6-7 years ago. Then I learned about what we were really up against.

And you quit. There's a word for that -- I'll give you a hint, it's not pragmatism.


Let me put it to you this way:

Had I known what I learned later at the beginning of the war, I would not have supported the idea of building a nation out there. I'd be fine with a quick hit and run and crippling their entire military capabilities, but not sticking around.

That's not "quitting." That's receiving new information and changing opinion in light of new evidence.

If one starts to take the wrong course of action, realizes the mistake part way, and changes course, is that "quitting"? Or is that rather being smart and cutting losses?

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I actually kind of have a thing for underdogs. Especially ones who are risking so much for such a noble idea.


Everyone loves the story of an underdog. Hardly my concern to go around the world helping every single one of them though. Especially for a cause that cannot be won without some significantly altered support. We can only "win" over there with our current objectives if enough Afghans change their mind. We're not going to cause that by sticking around. There is nothing we can do to make them want to reform Islam, Sharia law, or their own political system. A saying about a horse and a river comes to mind.

We got them to the river, but they don't want to drink. Our job is done.

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I won't, if we back out, because how the FRAG are the good guys supposed to feel when we turn our backs on them and leave them to the FRAGing dogs? That's savagery.


War is nothing short of savage.

And, to borrow your own words, how the FRAG am I supposed to feel when I see my friends ordered into the grinder for a cause not their own, only to find the people we're helping don't want our help!

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And you continue to make light of the sacrifices of brave people literally at risk of spontaneously exploding 24/7/365. You can't begin to understand what these people have to deal with on a daily basis -- and when they started so well-off in the first place, too. You hate their lack of action but you haven't seen their suffering and you don't understand their loss... tell me, what are YOU doing to fight our jihadist opponents?


First, and to clarify, I find nothing "light" about the loss of our American men over there. It's tragic, and I respect our soldiers for being willing to fight in such a scenario.

There have been untold millions who have "suffered" and "lost" much. Where is the reaction to all of these deaths? You simply cannot take on the entire world at once and expect to win.

As for what I "am doing to fight the jihadist opponents"? Frankly, I'm waiting for them to come here. I don't care if they're over there and they can't reach us. I only care when they have the means to put my friends and family in danger.

Call it selfish if you want, but I am not going to go over and waste my effort for people who, for the majority, don't care or want my help.

If they come here (or rather, when they choose to show themselves), believe me, you'll know about what I'm doing.

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I'll just point you back to the list of our islamic nation allies, since I think you missed something there. It's not impossible, we're DOING IT. Literally right now.


I'll just point out what was already said on that subject...

View PostAshrak, on Jun 13 2010, 11:45 PM, said:

Turkey is a NATO member

Which is forging close ties with Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hizballah, and is ruled by the "mildly Islamist" AKP party.

Indonesia

Home to anti-apostasy laws and other Shari'a Laws.

Saudi Arabia

Run by Wahabbis who help fund Jihad using oil money.

What great friends!




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I've talked to guys from Boston who were dancing in the streets when the Yankees lost the series.


And?

Huge difference between a sporting event and celebrating murder of civilian targets, wouldn't you say?
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#126 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 12:21 PM

View PostAshrak, on Jun 14 2010, 09:43 AM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 12:22 PM, said:

No... because... he's under-informed.

Lunch break post: Show me explicitly how I have misinterpreted Muhammad's admonitions for Muslims to wage Jihad.

Not what I was talking about. Go recheck the thread, I can only quote so much.

Thalion said:

Had I known what I learned later at the beginning of the war, I would not have supported the idea of building a nation out there. I'd be fine with a quick hit and run and crippling their entire military capabilities, but not sticking around. That's not "quitting." That's receiving new information and changing opinion in light of new evidence. If one starts to take the wrong course of action, realizes the mistake part way, and changes course, is that "quitting"? Or is that rather being smart and cutting losses?

You're right, that is different. Where we differ is (1) I never expected hit-and-run, which is where I probably got the idea you were quitting on me, and (2) I don't think we've lost, and therefore cutting now is (from my perspective anyway) retarded. Cutting now isn't just admitting defeat, it's directly causing defeat. I don't do that.

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Everyone loves the story of an underdog. Hardly my concern to go around the world helping every single one of them though. Especially for a cause that cannot be won without some significantly altered support. We can only "win" over there with our current objectives if enough Afghans change their mind. We're not going to cause that by sticking around. There is nothing we can do to make them want to reform Islam, Sharia law, or their own political system. A saying about a horse and a river comes to mind.

We got them to the river, but they don't want to drink. Our job is done.

But they *do* want to drink, and I keep *showing* you the horses drinking. Remember that movie where they say "The night is always darkest just before dawn?" If you had to cast yourself in that movie, where would you be right now? Because there are people over there right now -- Afghani people -- losing their families, homes, and everything else because we convinced them they had the power to take back their country. I'm not giving up on them just because the job turned out to be hard.

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War is nothing short of savage. And, to borrow your own words, how the FRAG am I supposed to feel when I see my friends ordered into the grinder for a cause not their own, only to find the people we're helping don't want our help!

Ordered nothing. There's not a soldier, sailor, marine, or airman in the service who didn't know *exactly* what was going on when we signed up, or re-upped, or stayed on. This isn't vietnam and we're not draftees. And I've got no qualms with savagery in war, but what you're talking about is savagery in peace. "Sorry, good guys, I know I said I had your back, but the game is on. Good luck though, we'll talk later if you manage to win." BS. If that's what America offered me, I'd hate it too.

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First, and to clarify, I find nothing "light" about the loss of our American men over there. It's tragic, and I respect our soldiers for being willing to fight in such a scenario. There have been untold millions who have "suffered" and "lost" much. Where is the reaction to all of these deaths? You simply cannot take on the entire world at once and expect to win.

See, there you go doing it again.... I wasn't talking about the Americans. I was talking about the Afghanis who have to do that crap on their own home turf, in front of their own five-year-old kids, then walk into their mosque that evening and stand in front of their congregation and say "Yes, I killed twelve muslim brothers today. Pray for me."

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As for what I "am doing to fight the jihadist opponents"? Frankly, I'm waiting for them to come here. I don't care if they're over there and they can't reach us. I only care when they have the means to put my friends and family in danger. Call it selfish if you want, but I am not going to go over and waste my effort for people who, for the majority, don't care or want my help. If they come here (or rather, when they choose to show themselves), believe me, you'll know about what I'm doing.

You know damn well they aren't going to "choose to show themselves." But okay, good to know you've got us covered.

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"I'll just point you back to the list of our islamic nation allies, since I think you missed something there. It's not impossible, we're DOING IT. Literally right now."

I'll just point out what was already said on that subject...

We're not managing to communicate here, are we.... okay. Let's try this again.

A. The idea of two religions coexisting is dumb.
B. No it isn't, look, we've got lots of muslim allies.
A. Yeah, but they're muslim.
B. Yeah.... and.... they're ... allies.
A. But they're MUSLIM.
B. .........

I must be missing something, because the more offensive you think their ideology is, the more that simply proves the point that coexistence is not only possible, it's possible to the extreme. Throw more wood in the furnace if you want, but the State Department kinda has you trump-carded on this one.

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Huge difference between a sporting event and celebrating murder of civilian targets, wouldn't you say?

I dunno, have you ever talked to a Red Sox fan? lol.

I got cut-off mid thought on that one, sorry. Point was, for someone living in a cave and eating bugs, it's not all that different. It's a huge deal for us -- and man, you really don't have to waste much breath explaining that to me, take my word for it -- but that's not the case for them. And besides -- almost nine years later we're still pissed off about *one* terrorist attack. ONE. It's easy to be mad, but it's a lot harder to try and picture what a thousand 9/11's must feel like. Imagine one every day. Imagine being born into that.... imagine bringing a child into that. I imagine that eventually, I'd become a spectator too. Maybe even start cheering for the wrong guys, if it meant me and my family could eat.
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#127 Guest_Tommy Towne_*

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:24 PM

View PostTexas Trigger, on Jun 12 2010, 10:00 PM, said:

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 11 2010, 01:47 AM, said:

View PostTexas Trigger, on Jun 9 2010, 01:44 PM, said:

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 8 2010, 07:50 PM, said:

Christains are supposed to stone non belivers also.


Actually, Christ said to love the sinner and hate the sin...He associated with prostitutes and thieves on a regular basis. Thanks for showing us all what an expert you are on Christianity though.


I really don't see why you are saying that I implied I am an "expert" Me stating that the bible says to stone non belivers is a fact. It's in there. I guess I touched a sore spot with you all. It's impossible to have an argument with conservitives without them going out on tangents and detracting from the main issues. Why don't you all play nice and stick to the topic, stop being rude, and don't just pick one thing that I write to attack and try to belittle me. I know my politics very well. I can back up my secular liberal views without name calling and going off on tangents. I realize you are all trying to make eachother laugh and make fun of the liberal, and I am am a big boy and can take it but I wan't to argue topics not tangents. Try it. I get frustrated with political arguments on here because the point gets lost completly and all I get is a bunch of insults.
I'm down to battle whits like a man but I don't care for school yard games. I am the only liberal in these forums that voices their opinions so I am an easy target.
Oh and sorry if you don't like my spelling, I am very casual in forums and not in the least bit uptight. I do not find it nessary to edit or proof unless I am in school. I hunt, peck and then post. I appologize if that offends anyone.


Oh don't worry Tommy, I'd never accuse you of being an expert, nor would I even imply any such thing. Clearly, sarcasm is a concept that is lost on you, as seen earlier in the thread as well.

As for touching a sore spot, it's not that. It's that you're spouting a bunch of lies to support your...uh...position when you clearly know very little about Christianity. As MDK said, you are misinformed. VERY misinformed. All we ask is that you quit condemning a religion you obviously know nothing about.

Also, please drop the "lone soldier" act. There's plenty of liberals on this forum that voice their opinions on a regular basis. When I was a bit more active, me and GITW used to get into it quite a bit (he will undoubtedly acknowledge this :dodgy:). You're embarrassing yourself...And the most comical (yet tragic) bit of it is that you don't even seem to realize it. It's quite entertaining. Really.

Oh, and just so everyone knows...I'm a Libertarian. I believe in freedom for individuals, freedom for markets, and freedom from over-reaching, over-spending, inefficient, over-bloated governments. Ya know, just in case any of you were wondering or didn't happen to see my avatar. Since it seems everyone is throwing it out there in the open...

Entertain yourself with this:
The beginning of your rant was name calling kid crap but I picked up on the libertarian free market stuff. Actually you are an American Libertarian because everywhere else in the world Libertarians are Anarchists. The American Libertarian Party has perversely twisted the messages of the free market into their laissez-faire capitalist agenda that will only benefit the privileged. The whole of the Anarchist movement is Socialist and far to the left. American Libertarians are a tiny minority compared to the Democratic Socialist movement worldwide.
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#128 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:27 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 02:21 PM, said:

You're right, that is different. Where we differ is (1) I never expected hit-and-run, which is where I probably got the idea you were quitting on me, and (2) I don't think we've lost, and therefore cutting now is (from my perspective anyway) retarded. Cutting now isn't just admitting defeat, it's directly causing defeat. I don't do that.


Alright, so we have a disagreement spelled out.

I can keep circling around the debate about whgether or not leaving will cause defeat or if it's already happened and we don't know it, and I may come back to it, but for now, I'm going to leave it at "yep, given what I know today, I would have been all for a quick hit and run to remove the threat to us. Not a fan of trying to build a nation over there."

So, no, to me I'm not quitting. We just overstayed our welcome long enough to find ourselves with a second round.

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But they *do* want to drink, and I keep *showing* you the horses drinking. Remember that movie where they say "The night is always darkest just before dawn?" If you had to cast yourself in that movie, where would you be right now? Because there are people over there right now -- Afghani people -- losing their families, homes, and everything else because we convinced them they had the power to take back their country. I'm not giving up on them just because the job turned out to be hard.


They don't seem to want to enough, it seems.

I'm not "giving up on them" because "it's hard." I'm "giving up" (if you can call it that, see above) because I feel we've eliminated the immediate threat, and it's time to put our efforts elsewhere for our own security.

What the Afghans do with their country when we go is not up to me, nor my concern. Until and unless we find ourselves having to go back and whack another threat.


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Ordered nothing. There's not a soldier, sailor, marine, or airman in the service who didn't know *exactly* what was going on when we signed up, or re-upped, or stayed on. This isn't vietnam and we're not draftees. And I've got no qualms with savagery in war, but what you're talking about is savagery in peace. "Sorry, good guys, I know I said I had your back, but the game is on. Good luck though, we'll talk later if you manage to win." BS. If that's what America offered me, I'd hate it too.


Fine. You volunteered for it. I respect those who choose to serve, because I know I wouldn't do the same. I'm willing to fight under the right circumstances, but another country's "benefit" (assuming it could be done) is not one of them. It'd be another thing entirely if we were fighting a war domestically as we were being invaded.

I get what you're saying about not leaving when we told them we would stay. Honestly, we don't belong signing checks we can't cash. I realize that's more of a "should have done" instead of a "what now" solution.

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See, there you go doing it again.... I wasn't talking about the Americans. I was talking about the Afghanis who have to do that crap on their own home turf, in front of their own five-year-old kids, then walk into their mosque that evening and stand in front of their congregation and say "Yes, I killed twelve muslim brothers today. Pray for me."


And because I opted to clarify, I'm "doing it again" ? I chose to clarify because, to me, there's a big difference between the Americans and the Afghans.

And I fail to see how describing what the Afghans who choose to fight go through changes the point I made.

Here's my point, again, with further clarification -- You seem concerned with the sacrifice and trials of the Afghanis. While I question the total number in comparison to their population, I don't question the existence of some. I'm asking you this - should we give everyone the same shot? Do we belong going throughout the world fighting for all those who suffer?

For example, do we belong going to Sudan to help the Darfur rebels and refugees against their oppressors? Do we belong sending military resources into Mexico to help the people who suffer from the violence on their streets caused by the drug cartels?

If we don't belong doing all this, then why are we preoccupied with what the Afghanis are going through? The world is full of suffering, and where do we draw the line on which ones we care about and which we do not?

Or in short -- are we really the world's policeman? Or should we be involved only with our own security concerns? I am an advocate of the latter.

And I (usually) draw the line at American citizens first. If we had absolutely no problems of our own here in the States, then by all means, start expanding how and who we help.

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You know damn well they aren't going to "choose to show themselves." But okay, good to know you've got us covered.


I meant by action.

And you know? They have been "showing themselves" across the world.

Following a hypothetical scenario - Seeing the success of Mumbai, Jihadists attempt the same thing here in the US. Hypothetically speaking, they choose the city we shall dub "X" since it doesn't really matter where. Let's further hypothetically suppose I'm in "X" for whatever reason (perhaps I live there at the time of this attack, perhaps I'm visiting or on business, whatever). I will respond to a threat I see. I have no issue fighting the enemy here.

Alternatively, if we paint a hypothetical of a budding Islamist movement domestically, who commit acts of violence, and for whatever reason LE continues to do nothing. Well, I'll be inclined to start finding ways to deal with them myself.

I don't need to keep on with hypothetical scenarios. You asked what I would do, and I said I'll respond to domestic threats when I see them. Between some of the things I've seen locally and the wide open border with Mexico, I suspect this is more of a "when" than an "if" (though I'd gladly be proven wrong with time).

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We're not managing to communicate here, are we.... okay. Let's try this again.

A. The idea of two religions coexisting is dumb.
B. No it isn't, look, we've got lots of muslim allies.
A. Yeah, but they're muslim.
B. Yeah.... and.... they're ... allies.
A. But they're MUSLIM.
B. .........


I think the disconnect is coming in around here:

A. Yeah, but they're muslim.

I'm seeing it more like this:

A. The idea of two religions coexisting is dumb.
B. No it isn't, look, we've got lots of muslim allies.
A. They're not exactly allies, because...
B. Yeah.... but they're allies. And they're Muslim.
A. .........

Personally, while the State department chooses to call a party an ally, I don't feel that makes them a true ally, even if they are one on paper.

To take a single example - Turkey. While Turkey is technically a NATO member and technically an "ally," they are building bridges with some particularly unfriendly people (such as Hizballah, Syria, and Iran) Ashrak cites that they are doing so, and you just sit back and say "but they're an ally."

Does a real ally claim to be your friend, while slowly siding with those who oppose you?

You see why one might be skeptical to their true status, even if a piece of paper somewhere lists them as an ally, right?

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And besides -- almost nine years later we're still pissed off about *one* terrorist attack. ONE.


I don't know who's pissed off about *one* terrorist attack.

I know I'm more focused on current and present threats, but if we want to list earlier grievances that I might be pissed about, there's the Iranian embassy hostage crisis, the WT bombing (the first one, not 9/11), the USS Cole bombing, 9/11, the Beltway snipers, Fort Hood, etc.

And that's not counting the "little things" like honor killings.

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It's easy to be mad, but it's a lot harder to try and picture what a thousand 9/11's must feel like. Imagine one every day.


2,700,000 people killed in violent acts from a single hostile force?

Or 2700 a day?

I can't imagine a nation going through that without seriously leveling the perpetrators. And the only examples I can think of nations who DID go through something like that, were cases where the death was caused by their own government (such as Nazi Germany committing the Holocaust, or Stalin and the USSR's Programmes.)

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Imagine being born into that.... imagine bringing a child into that. I imagine that eventually, I'd become a spectator too. Maybe even start cheering for the wrong guys, if it meant me and my family could eat.


Nobody on this planet has been "born into that." Not in a long, long time.

Since my example was Palestinians, I'll stick with that. If I were born in the West Bank as a Palestinian, I'd likely be trying to get out and work in Israel. Better pay for the same job, and when I don't threaten them, amazingly they don't threaten me.
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#129 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:33 PM

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 14 2010, 01:24 PM, said:

Oh btw I am a Libertarian also LOL

And I'm a saggitarius.

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 01:39 PM

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 14 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

The beginning of your rant was name calling kid crap but I picked up on the libertarian free market stuff. Actually you are an American Libertarian because everywhere else in the world Libertarians are Anarchists. The American Libertarian Party has perversely twisted the messages of the free market into their laissez-faire capitalist agenda that will only benefit the privileged. The whole of the Anarchist movement is Socialist and far to the left. American Libertarians are a tiny minority compared to the Democratic Socialist movement worldwide.


When one is an American, and refers to a "Libertarian" as a proper noun, it is reasonable to assume they mean an American-based Libertarian viewpoint.

And technically speaking, across the world "libertarian" can mean anything from extremely limited government to anarchism. Not really a surprise there. Terms like left/right, authoritarian/libertarian, etc. are all subjective to in relation to the speaker.

The other point I direct you to is the concept of ancap, or anarchist capitalism. You see, socialists do not have a monopoly on anarchism by any means (never mind that Tex never actually said he was in favor of anarchism)

I fail to see how "American Libertarians" in your words "twist the message of the free market" while socialists are an advocate of the free market.

The free market is simply a market with limited or no government regulations, ie capitalism. Socialism involves economic control from an outside party, government or otherwise.

Call yourself whatever you want, I already know what you are and what you think. You want the right to take what I have to give to someone else. Obviously, if I am successful, I must be somehow "privileged" and don't deserve it, even if I inherited a whopping $0.00 of it.
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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:02 PM

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 14 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Entertain yourself with this:
The beginning of your rant was name calling kid crap but I picked up on the libertarian free market stuff. Actually you are an American Libertarian because everywhere else in the world Libertarians are Anarchists. The American Libertarian Party has perversely twisted the messages of the free market into their laissez-faire capitalist agenda that will only benefit the privileged. The whole of the Anarchist movement is Socialist and far to the left. American Libertarians are a tiny minority compared to the Democratic Socialist movement worldwide.
Ding Ding
Oh btw I am a Libertarian also LOL


Actually, American Libertarians are not quite the picture you paint. That would be the Anarcho-Capitalist segment.

Now, since you seem so intent on arguing who wants what worldwide, and throwing out how perverse the American Libertarian movement is, allow me to point out a few things.

One, I don't give a pile of loose crap that the rest of the world (ie. meaning European nations, their former colonies, some Asian, and the former Soviet states) is leaning toward a Democratic Socialist system. Look at socialist societies and you will see that they have "perversely twisted the messages of "helping one's fellow man" into their socialistic agenda that will only benefit the privileged." To use your regurgitated rhetoric from Move-On.

Two, I STILL don't give a pile of loose crap that the rest of the world (ie. meaning European nations, and the former soviet states) is leaning toward a Democratic Socialist system. Because I do not live in those holes, I live in these United States. A nation FOUNDED on the principles of Liberty and Personal responsibility by *gasp* the original American Libertarians. Men that believed that the fruits of their toils shouldn't be taken by a bloated, unchecked government and distributed to whomever the government deemed deserved it. Yet many socialist principles entail precisely the concept. People whom believe that because one doesn't want to do the work to earn something, then they are somehow entitled to receive that benefit anyway, even if it has to be taken from another to do so. They mistake the concept of equality as "equal stuff" instead of "equal opportunity".

Three. If you find the idea of A nation of free people, founded by free people, being able to live free, then I implore you, move to FRAGing Russia or some crap. I hear it's a burgeoning Democratic Socialit area, if you ignore the whole mafia corruption issue. Definitely no evil capitalists there for you to rail against. Or the UK. I hear they're locking up veterans for turning is illicit weapons they find dumped in trash cans. Oh even better, why not go to China. Great place. I mean, Tienanmen Square was just a hoax pulled by us evil capitalists, surely China would be a haven for enlightened minds such as yourself.
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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:19 PM

Picking and choosing points now, because, well, because I can, and most of what you and me are talking about at this point is just opinion anyway.

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 01:27 PM, said:

What the Afghans do with their country when we go is not up to me, nor my concern. Until and unless we find ourselves having to go back and whack another threat.

Shortsighted. You know how they say history repeats itself? Well we've been here before, and last time, we didn't stick around to empower the people of Afghanistan it turned into a breeding ground for Al Qaeda. Militarily the better answer is to stick around until the country is capable of handling itself, and then WHOAH! We'll have done something good on the side, by accident!

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I'm asking you this - should we give everyone the same shot? Do we belong going throughout the world fighting for all those who suffer?

Well, we're fighting a global war on terror, it makes sense that we would assemble allies where and when we can find them. In this case, we found them and we started a war with them. Woulda-couldas aside, to leave now would be a terrible breach of faith and a big bullet right in our own foot. I'm not saying or (hopefully) implying that every situation is the same, but in this case, this is what we've got.

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are we really the world's policeman? Or should we be involved only with our own security concerns? I am an advocate of the latter.

We're the world's Texas.

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I have no issue fighting the enemy here.

Which is precisely why "here" isn't where we are vulnerable.


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A. The idea of two religions coexisting is dumb.
B. No it isn't, look, we've got lots of muslim allies.
A. They're not exactly allies, because...
B. Yeah.... but they're allies. And they're Muslim.
A. .........

Personally, while the State department chooses to call a party an ally, I don't feel that makes them a true ally, even if they are one on paper.

I'm glad we sorted out our different perspective there. I'd rather wait for Ash to step up and defend his accusations, though, to be honest.... I'm not convinced by any of his examples that these national allies are quietly stabbing us in the back, or whatever it was he meant to imply. They're allies, not states. Who they associate with is none of our concern.

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You see why one might be skeptical to their true status, even if a piece of paper somewhere lists them as an ally, right?

Oh, absolutely. I'm skeptical to the true status of most people, though. Still manage to get along with most of 'em.

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I don't know who's pissed off about *one* terrorist attack. I know I'm more focused on current and present threats, but if we want to list earlier grievances that I might be pissed about, there's the Iranian embassy hostage crisis, the WT bombing (the first one, not 9/11), the USS Cole bombing, 9/11, the Beltway snipers, Fort Hood, etc.

Point being the violence is isolated and quantifiable here, which is decidedly different from elsewhere in the world. And I'm glad of that.

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It's easy to be mad, but it's a lot harder to try and picture what a thousand 9/11's must feel like. Imagine one every day.


2,700,000 people killed in violent acts from a single hostile force?

Or 2700 a day?

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Attacks. Picture regular and frequent attacks, not literal math.....

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Since my example was Palestinians, I'll stick with that. If I were born in the West Bank as a Palestinian, I'd likely be trying to get out and work in Israel. Better pay for the same job, and when I don't threaten them, amazingly they don't threaten me.

Easy to say from here, in the corner without all the violence where people don't mess with you unless you threaten them.
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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:29 PM

Limited time, so I'm really picking out now. May get back to it if possible later.

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

Shortsighted. You know how they say history repeats itself? Well we've been here before, and last time, we didn't stick around to empower the people of Afghanistan it turned into a breeding ground for Al Qaeda. Militarily the better answer is to stick around until the country is capable of handling itself, and then WHOAH! We'll have done something good on the side, by accident!


And if we're there indefinitely?

For the record, when were we not sticking around? I'm fairly sure we've been there since we first went in after the Taliban.

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Well, we're fighting a global war on terror


No, we're not. We're fighting a global war on Islamic jihadists. I cannot fight a war against "terror" no more than I can fight a war against "cheaters" or "liars." It's an action, a tool (for good or bad), not an idea or group of people.

Carry on.

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We're the world's Texas.


Should I take that as a "yes" ?

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I'm glad we sorted out our different perspective there. I'd rather wait for Ash to step up and defend his accusations, though, to be honest.... I'm not convinced by any of his examples that these national allies are quietly stabbing us in the back, or whatever it was he meant to imply. They're allies, not states. Who they associate with is none of our concern.


I too shall leave it to Ash to fill in the gap here.

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Oh, absolutely. I'm skeptical to the true status of most people, though. Still manage to get along with most of 'em.


Funny, I'm skeptical of people as well. Especially when given grounds to be.

Get along with them? Eh, does mutually assured ignoring count?

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Picture regular and frequent attacks, not literal math.....


Fine.

I would say that my response would probably be similar to Israel's. Build a wall, cut off the routes of attack, and keep a careful eye on what's going on.

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Easy to say from here, in the corner without all the violence where people don't mess with you unless you threaten them.


"If anyone tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back."

Considering plenty of Palestinians do exactly what I suggested, I don't think it's that big of a logical jump.
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Posted 14 June 2010 - 02:47 PM

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 02:29 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 04:19 PM, said:

Shortsighted. You know how they say history repeats itself? Well we've been here before, and last time, we didn't stick around to empower the people of Afghanistan it turned into a breeding ground for Al Qaeda. Militarily the better answer is to stick around until the country is capable of handling itself, and then WHOAH! We'll have done something good on the side, by accident!


And if we're there indefinitely?

For the record, when were we not sticking around? I'm fairly sure we've been there since we first went in after the Taliban.

To the former -- I'll worry about that when we stop making progress. To the latter -- Charlie Wilson's War.

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We're fighting a global war on Islamic jihadists. I cannot fight a war against "terror" no more than I can fight a war against "cheaters" or "liars." It's an action, a tool (for good or bad), not an idea or group of people. Carry on.

I was gonna semantics-card you, but then I realized you said Islamic. They don't have to be Islamic. The ones we've fought so far happen to be.... but they don't have to be.

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Get along with them? Eh, does mutually assured ignoring count?

Yup. Trade is better.... but ignoring counts.
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Posted 14 June 2010 - 04:10 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 02:47 PM, said:

I was gonna semantics-card you, but then I realized you said Islamic. They don't have to be Islamic. The ones we've fought so far happen to be.... but they don't have to be.


You let me know when the radical Buddhists start blowing up Americans.

Globalization man. Distractions will be the end of radicalism. Once we get iPads in the hands of every man, woman and child in the Muslim world, kids won't have time to sit on grandpa's lap to hear him tell the story of the Two Satans.
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