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Racial Tension at UCSD Rate Topic: -----

#46 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:24 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Feb 28 2010, 07:10 PM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Feb 28 2010, 03:01 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Feb 28 2010, 02:26 PM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Feb 28 2010, 11:48 AM, said:

Putting up a noose goes beyond simple bigotry...that's a death threat.

More like poor taste, but have it your way...



The people for whom it is intended view it that way. The idiots that put it up may think it's a sick, twisted joke, but for thousands of African Americans, it's grim reminder of not so long ago American history.

It is not the bigot who best determines how insulting, degrading, humiliating, or threatening such an act is...but the victim. If you were slapped in the face, who would be the better judge of how much it hurt, you, or the person issuing the slap?

Yeah but we're not talking about a slap in the face, we're talking about a piece of rope in a tree. Who would be the better judge of why someone put it there -- the guy who put it there, or a passer-by? Just saying, the logic doesn't really hold up.


We're talking about bigotry and who it hurts, and who it keeps down...so yes, it does apply. Just because the logic of my analogy escapes you, doesn't mean it doesn't hold up. Just means you don't or don't want to get it. The point is, if you are in the majority, or in power, the bigotry of the minority is merely an annoyance. If you are in the minority, it controls and throttles you. Whites (if they are in the majority) typically don't see prejudice or bigotry as a big thing, because for them, it really isn't. The minority has little influence over them, relatively speaking. It's quite different when you are the minority.

It seems that in addition to my "logic", the symbolism of a noose in a tree escapes you as well. If you were a black man in the south, you would feel quite differently about a noose in a tree. See how one side dismisses things, while the other takes it more seriously?

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#47 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 07:37 PM

View PostCuy, on Feb 28 2010, 06:38 PM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Feb 28 2010, 03:01 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Feb 28 2010, 02:26 PM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Feb 28 2010, 11:48 AM, said:

Putting up a noose goes beyond simple bigotry...that's a death threat.

More like poor taste, but have it your way...



The people for whom it is intended view it that way. The idiots that put it up may think it's a sick, twisted joke, but for thousands of African Americans, it's grim reminder of not so long ago American history.

It is not the bigot who best determines how insulting, degrading, humiliating, or threatening such an act is...but the victim. If you were slapped in the face, who would be the better judge of how much it hurt, you, or the person issuing the slap?

They hung pirates too. and white people. and asians. and hispanics. and indians. do i need to go on?


Well, I think some of your examples are off point. Why did they hang pirates? Not because of their race, but because they were pirates. The white people you speak of were probably not hung because they were white, but because they were considered criminals of some type, like horse thieves in the old west. I'm sure asians, hispanics, and indians were hung too, but not to the same degree as blacks in the south, and besides, the point is not so much who was hung, but why. It was an example of what would happen if you chose to be a disobedient black man, or just for being a black man where white people didn't think you belonged. Why do you think the noose was put up...to make minorities feel welcome? To make people feel comfortable, or safe? No, you do not need to go on, for it is apparent that you do not understand the topic very well.
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#48 User is offline   Cuy'val Dar  

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:34 PM

I understood perfectly. I live in the south, and trust me there's more to america than down here. But black, white, purple, or orange, it makes no difference, everyone was hung regardless. I could take offense at the hanging of a noose. Im white. Race has some to do with that, but not nearly as much as people think.
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#49 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 11:38 PM

Don't know, but I do know that blacks have had a long history of hanging nooses themselves and then claiming "racial harassment". Then again, so do a lot of other "protected" groups.

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/11/why-w...security-video/

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/10/10/gwus-...inistration-do/

http://michellemalkin.com/2005/05/09/anoth...ate-crime-hoax/

http://www.danielpipes.org/2042/islamophob...judice-and-cair

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2004/08/mo...ate-crime-myths

A list of many of the hoaxes.

http://www.amnation....ves/008983.html
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#50 User is offline   outlaw-master 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:18 AM

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 2 2010, 12:38 AM, said:




As much as I tried to stay out of this......


How in the world is five examples a long history? :)

And trust me white supremacist had a longer history of hanging nooses and actually using them.

And what the hell is a protected group?
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#51 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:30 AM

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 1 2010, 08:24 PM, said:

We're talking about bigotry and who it hurts, and who it keeps down...so yes, it does apply. Just because the logic of my analogy escapes you, doesn't mean it doesn't hold up. Just means you don't or don't want to get it. The point is, if you are in the majority, or in power, the bigotry of the minority is merely an annoyance. If you are in the minority, it controls and throttles you. Whites (if they are in the majority) typically don't see prejudice or bigotry as a big thing, because for them, it really isn't. The minority has little influence over them, relatively speaking. It's quite different when you are the minority.

It seems that in addition to my "logic", the symbolism of a noose in a tree escapes you as well. If you were a black man in the south, you would feel quite differently about a noose in a tree. See how one side dismisses things, while the other takes it more seriously?

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not dismissing it -- I'm just trying not to assume anything about people, white or black. Looking at the situation, I don't understand who could have been threatened. Feel threatened? Absolutely, and that's what makes it a really distasteful joke at best. But a "death threat?" Not probably.

I'm not one of those who doesn't think racism is still an issue, but keeping things in perspective would help everybody out. Assuming the worst out of the "other side" is not going to help anybody.
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#52 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 06:56 AM

View Postoutlaw-master, on Mar 2 2010, 01:18 AM, said:

As much as I tried to stay out of this......


How in the world is five examples a long history? :facepalm:


Do you seriously expect him to list every case to make his argument?

If I were to talk about the long history of white supremacist racism and provide 5 (or even less) examples, that seems to be accepted as valid.

So I don't get how this could be any different?



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And what the hell is a protected group?


Protected group - an ethnic, racial, cultural, spiritual, or otherwise definable social group that receives some manner of extra protection or benefits from the government, either from things such as affirmative action, to extra charges of "hate crime" if one commits a crime against one of them, to it just not being acceptable to offend them.

Examples of protected groups (in varying degrees) include blacks, homosexuals, and Muslims (primarily in Europe only, not so much here in the US).
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#53 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:10 AM

@ Outlaw

Here's another (local) example.

You'll also notice that Tim provided a more complete list of hoaxes in a separate link.

---

Look, the bottom line, I think, is this.

Yes, genuine racism is morally wrong, going back to Proposition 1. But that fact is the greatest threat facing a young black male today is not a white guy with a sheet over his head, or a gang of southern whites with a noose.

The greatest threat facing a young black male today is another young black male. Look at any crime statistics for any urban are, and they will bear that out.

White America has moved on. We're still waiting for Black America to join us.
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#54 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:44 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Mar 2 2010, 06:30 AM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 1 2010, 08:24 PM, said:

We're talking about bigotry and who it hurts, and who it keeps down...so yes, it does apply. Just because the logic of my analogy escapes you, doesn't mean it doesn't hold up. Just means you don't or don't want to get it. The point is, if you are in the majority, or in power, the bigotry of the minority is merely an annoyance. If you are in the minority, it controls and throttles you. Whites (if they are in the majority) typically don't see prejudice or bigotry as a big thing, because for them, it really isn't. The minority has little influence over them, relatively speaking. It's quite different when you are the minority.

It seems that in addition to my "logic", the symbolism of a noose in a tree escapes you as well. If you were a black man in the south, you would feel quite differently about a noose in a tree. See how one side dismisses things, while the other takes it more seriously?

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm not dismissing it -- I'm just trying not to assume anything about people, white or black. Looking at the situation, I don't understand who could have been threatened. Feel threatened? Absolutely, and that's what makes it a really distasteful joke at best. But a "death threat?" Not probably.

But what does the noose represent? An invitation to suicide, or threat of lynching? It's meant to intimidate someone who needs to be put in "their place". "Their place", is definitely not where the noose is displayed.

I'm not one of those who doesn't think racism is still an issue, but keeping things in perspective would help everybody out. Assuming the worst out of the "other side" is not going to help anybody.


Well, in keeping things in perspective, if you were a minority, particularly a black minority, what do you think your "perspective" would be on seeing a noose displayed on your campus or in your neighborhood? Again, in the Old West, a noose might be seen as a warning to horse thieves. Is there a horse theft issue on this campus? In the south, it was and is still today a warning against black disobedience of white supremacy. There is no "assumption of the worst" to be made...the intended message of intimidation was clearly sent.
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#55 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:53 PM

View PostAshrak, on Mar 2 2010, 10:10 AM, said:

@ Outlaw

Here's another (local) example.

You'll also notice that Tim provided a more complete list of hoaxes in a separate link.

---

Look, the bottom line, I think, is this.

Yes, genuine racism is morally wrong, going back to Proposition 1. But that fact is the greatest threat facing a young black male today is not a white guy with a sheet over his head, or a gang of southern whites with a noose.

The greatest threat facing a young black male today is another young black male. Look at any crime statistics for any urban are, and they will bear that out.

In a predominantly black or minority neighborhood, perhaps. But if you look a little deeper than the color of people's skin, you would find that the real driver of crime is the overall prosperity of a neighborhood, or lack thereof. Wealthier neighborhoods have less crime, and undesirables tend to be conscientiously kept in "their place" by LE. Poorer neighborhoods typically experience more crime, and less conscientious LE intervention or presence.

White America has moved on. We're still waiting for Black America to join us.


So long as there is a differentiation between White America and Black America, neither has moved on as far as it thinks.
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#56 User is offline   Veritech Squad 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 12:56 PM

View PostMehphisto, on Mar 1 2010, 04:12 PM, said:

Nu uh, you guys are wrong.

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#57 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 03:10 PM

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 2 2010, 02:53 PM, said:

In a predominantly black or minority neighborhood, perhaps. But if you look a little deeper than the color of people's skin, you would find that the real driver of crime is the overall prosperity of a neighborhood, or lack thereof. Wealthier neighborhoods have less crime, and undesirables tend to be conscientiously kept in "their place" by LE. Poorer neighborhoods typically experience more crime, and less conscientious LE intervention or presence.


Oh without a doubt, that is correct.

By no means did I mean to infer that someone's race causes people to commit crime. In my opinion, even going beyond wealth, what drives a person to commit crime is their own moral foundation or lack thereof.

I was only trying to point out that for all the legitimate resentment of white racism in the modern era (and I know it exists - I've talked to people who endorse it), that isn't the greatest threat to the welfare of a minority. Purely in racial terms, that threat comes from among his "own" people, not "mine." (*And I'm not saying I buy into the idea that race is a defining factor in a person's identity. It isn't for me, and I don't think it should be for anyone. But the ubiquitous "they" often insists that it is.)

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So long as there is a differentiation between White America and Black America, neither has moved on as far as it thinks.


Again, quite true. But from my perspective, part of the holdup is that people on both sides still cling to race as a defining feature of a human being, whether it is black women being criticized for "consorting with the enemy" or black conservatives being called "Oreo cookies" or if it is white who view blacks (and more often than not Jews and Catholics) as little better than dunghill swine.

But it just seems more often than not that the entire white community is pilloried for being racist, whereas black racism gets a free pass and is encouraged as a measure of racial solidarity.
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#58 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 04:20 PM

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 2 2010, 01:44 PM, said:

Well, in keeping things in perspective, if you were a minority, particularly a black minority, what do you think your "perspective" would be on seeing a noose displayed on your campus or in your neighborhood? Again, in the Old West, a noose might be seen as a warning to horse thieves. Is there a horse theft issue on this campus? In the south, it was and is still today a warning against black disobedience of white supremacy. There is no "assumption of the worst" to be made...the intended message of intimidation was clearly sent.

First of all, my perspective SHOULDN'T depend on what color my skin is. Second, guessing intentions isn't my game, but the history of that symbol is, in fact, the reason I said the noose was at best a distasteful joke. You're not really looking for any possible explanation other than "KKK douchebag wants to murder black people." If that's the case, you and me can go beat his ass together.... but I'm just not convinced that's what's going on.
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#59 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 06:02 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Mar 2 2010, 06:20 PM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 2 2010, 01:44 PM, said:

Well, in keeping things in perspective, if you were a minority, particularly a black minority, what do you think your "perspective" would be on seeing a noose displayed on your campus or in your neighborhood? Again, in the Old West, a noose might be seen as a warning to horse thieves. Is there a horse theft issue on this campus? In the south, it was and is still today a warning against black disobedience of white supremacy. There is no "assumption of the worst" to be made...the intended message of intimidation was clearly sent.

First of all, my perspective SHOULDN'T depend on what color my skin is. Second, guessing intentions isn't my game, but the history of that symbol is, in fact, the reason I said the noose was at best a distasteful joke. You're not really looking for any possible explanation other than "KKK douchebag wants to murder black people." If that's the case, you and me can go beat his ass together.... but I'm just not convinced that's what's going on.


You're right...it shouldn't...but unfortunately, we all know that it does. I suspect you don't want to second guess intentions because you don't like the inevitable answer. The people who hung the noose knew what it symbolized, whether they did it as a "joke", or a warning. It's interesting how many people do something really stupid, then defend themselves later by saying, "It was just a joke." Again, if you were a black person, I don't think you would see the humor in it...no amount of "convincing" would likely change that.
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#60 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 06:17 PM

View PostAshrak, on Mar 2 2010, 05:10 PM, said:

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 2 2010, 02:53 PM, said:

In a predominantly black or minority neighborhood, perhaps. But if you look a little deeper than the color of people's skin, you would find that the real driver of crime is the overall prosperity of a neighborhood, or lack thereof. Wealthier neighborhoods have less crime, and undesirables tend to be conscientiously kept in "their place" by LE. Poorer neighborhoods typically experience more crime, and less conscientious LE intervention or presence.


Oh without a doubt, that is correct.

By no means did I mean to infer that someone's race causes people to commit crime. In my opinion, even going beyond wealth, what drives a person to commit crime is their own moral foundation or lack thereof.

I did not believe you inferred that. There are many variables that contribute to criminal motivation, and moral character is one of those, but that moral character is also molded by the social mores of the society in which you live.

I was only trying to point out that for all the legitimate resentment of white racism in the modern era (and I know it exists - I've talked to people who endorse it), that isn't the greatest threat to the welfare of a minority. Purely in racial terms, that threat comes from among his "own" people, not "mine." (*And I'm not saying I buy into the idea that race is a defining factor in a person's identity. It isn't for me, and I don't think it should be for anyone. But the ubiquitous "they" often insists that it is.)

I sometimes think black people need to put the past behind them and move on. I look at other minorities who have also been victims of extreme prejudice, and most have fared better than their black counterparts. For other minorities, being a minority has been a challenge, but not a handicap.

Quote

So long as there is a differentiation between White America and Black America, neither has moved on as far as it thinks.


Again, quite true. But from my perspective, part of the holdup is that people on both sides still cling to race as a defining feature of a human being, whether it is black women being criticized for "consorting with the enemy" or black conservatives being called "Oreo cookies" or if it is white who view blacks (and more often than not Jews and Catholics) as little better than dunghill swine.

But it just seems more often than not that the entire white community is pilloried for being racist, whereas black racism gets a free pass and is encouraged as a measure of racial solidarity.


Racism is not confined to a color. It's concept, not a physical characteristic. If you are a minority, you can't ask to be treated like everyone else, and then expect special treatment on the other hand. There is definitely a difference between a hand up, and a hand out.

However, getting back to the subject of this post, it probably wasn't a black man who hung the noose. Now if someone had put a box of Saltines up in that tree, it would be a different story.

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