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SP temporary closure the SP saga continues...

#61 User is offline   UWANNAGO 

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:57 AM

Its not a justification im just saying its part of competitive paintball.

Have you ever seen players wear those silver rings? What those do are cause a magnetic switch in the board to activate so cheater modes can be unlocked but when a ref test fires it the gun will shoot normal....ever heard of breakout mode? Ever noticed players running with their hands up? Do you know why people slide into bunkers that didnt require sliding? Wanna know why people rub against bunkers when they run by them? Cheating is a part of paintball, lots of people do it. Almost everyone does it or thinks about it or knows how to do it. I reffed for about 3 years I could go on for pages about different ways people cheat and get around rules and the different ways guns are able to be made illegal without a ref knowing. Since day 1 of competitive paintball people have been figuring out how to get an edge and to say they arent is just not true, most of what the people wore and how they played in the early days of paintball is against the rules now because it gave so many unfair advantages.
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#62 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 12:36 PM

Never intended to derail this thread, but ....

This

View PostTeddy K, on Feb 4 2010, 12:57 PM, said:

Its not a justification im just saying its part of competitive paintball.


Contradicts this

Quote

Cheating is a part of paintball, lots of people do it. Almost everyone does it or thinks about it or knows how to do it.


If it's just "a part of paintball" that "lots of people" do, then it's OK. But that contradicts the idea of "it's not justification."

On the second comment, well, everyone knowing how to do something does not translate to it being acceptable or "just part of" whatever we're talking about (in this case, paintball).

But you cannot seriously tell me that "almost everyone does it," because that simply isn't the case. Maybe it is in certain areas or demographics of paintball, but not large scale, everywhere.

Quote

Have you ever seen players wear those silver rings? What those do are cause a magnetic switch in the board to activate so cheater modes can be unlocked but when a ref test fires it the gun will shoot normal....ever heard of breakout mode? Ever noticed players running with their hands up? Do you know why people slide into bunkers that didnt require sliding? Wanna know why people rub against bunkers when they run by them?


Again, justifying by saying "look at all these cases of how people cheat and get around the rules."

And no, I can honestly say that at the events I frequent I have never seen players using silver rings. Very rarely I've seen a player use an illegal firing mode (perhaps twice in 7 years), and I've only seen "running with hands up" at a single field. Seen plenty of sliding to get out of line of fire faster, though I'm sure now and then there's an "avoid a hit." And at most of the fields I go to, rubbing against the bunker is more likely to increase odds of being removed (for gaining a false positive) then not, but I only play on an airball field in the winter indoors.

The common (and I use it loosely) cheating I see is blatant wiping or just playing on anyway, and shooting above chrono limit.
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#63 User is offline   UWANNAGO 

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 01:16 PM

Justifying it would be saying its ok, I never said it was ok I said it happens. Lots of people commit crimes thats a fact but breaking the law isnt ok...

I could go on about all the people I know and fields ive been too and events ive watched and further explain a few things I can tell you didnt understand about my post but I really dont care about your opinion much like you dont care about the evidence im giving. So ill just drop this but believe me whether you notice it or not every time you step onto the field someone is going to break a rule later on in that game, its not ok and I personally hate it, but it happens.
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#64 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 02:53 PM

View PostTeddy K, on Feb 4 2010, 02:16 PM, said:

I could go on about all the people I know and fields ive been too and events ive watched and further explain a few things I can tell you didnt understand about my post but I really dont care about your opinion much like you dont care about the evidence im giving.


But your "evidence" is your observations, yes?

And my observations (that I called as such) are observations, yes?

The point wasn't "you're entirely wrong," but rather "I just came up with a total different set of observations, so clearly this problem isn't as universal or widespread as you make it out to be."

Or in other words... my opinion is factually no different than your evidence. Except for it came from me (which obviously means it's wrong :P )

Quote

So ill just drop this but believe me whether you notice it or not every time you step onto the field someone is going to break a rule later on in that game, its not ok and I personally hate it, but it happens.


Minimum of one incident every single day? I can buy that. Every single game? Not so much.

I'd find a new field if that were the case.
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#65 User is offline   flyweightnate 

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 11:45 PM

View PostTeddy K, on Feb 4 2010, 12:45 PM, said:

View Postflyweightnate, on Feb 4 2010, 01:22 AM, said:

DLX was a huge waste of money... it was an attempt to make the Shocker look innovative. I honestly would be surprised to see it stay afloat, even as a separate entity. At this point, DYE realizes it could permanently remove some competition by increasing rates ever so slightly on the machining; however, depending on the ownership of the patents it might be a way to prevent paying of royalties on the electronic switch patent. It certainly doesn't cost them much to produce the Luxe- the majority of the millwork is a huge roughing operation.

I have no love lost for the AAs, after seeing how the team played back in the day- defensive 'lockdown' style, some of the first recorded (as in video) wiping (by Adam Gardner himself- the ref tackled him), and all the old guys know why the Shocker REALLY shoots farther- wink wink nudge nudge. The new team really has no tie with the old team, I realize, except the sponsor, but I don't think there's any 'legacy' to be upheld. It's not like when Navarone disappeared, or when the Ironmen changed hands. They were some great ballers.

Your blind hate for alot of things makes you come off very ignorant.

First of DLX has been very successful and is coming out with a 2nd Gen version, they also have the best resale value of any gun on the market. The way you are talking in the first paragraph you are acting like DYE is going to force DLX out of business when you had no idea DYE had anything to do with them before you were told a few posts prior. It costs them near nothing to make them as you speculated and they are selling them for a very high price and its holding there. Its also a great gun, just like the shocker. Idk if you have shot either but you should try them.

In case you are wondering every pro team cheats, everyone. Name we a pro team you dont think cheated and I guarantee you they did. Cheating is part of paintball just like every other sport. People do anything they can to get ahead in the sport they are playing. I know alot of old school guys that will tell hundreds of stories of how to get a cocker to pass chrono test and then get it to shoot 340 fps in game, or how to raise the velocity on the old lapco pumps, or how to make cheater boards for the original angels. The late 90s teams were the ones that anti bounce gear and clothes that absorbed paint and put neoprene on everything.



I knew they outsourced the machining of the Luxe- forgot who, whether BL or DYE. Forgive me for coming off 84oz of Redbull and a 10 page lab report over the past 36 hours.

With regard to the Luxe, as a gun- it's a Shocker. Which is a Matrix. Which is an Omega. The bolt design is less than impressive. Resale value might be high, but it's also high on the Marq Victory. And the Vice held its value just as long. And the MacDev guns. It's a novelty factor, related to whether there is a new model and how many are on the market. The quick-pull bolt and the pop-off eye covers are gimmicks, as is the talking board. These gimmicks were absolute wastes of money and did not help SP's finances in the least.

I have shot Shockers. And Matrices. I don't care for spoolies- the PMR (original version, with an upgraded trigger) is actually my preferred spoolie, with the Geo as a close second. Simplicity is important to me, because it leads to reliability, which is paramount to my selection of a gun. I was just unimpressed with the NXTs I shot due to feel, efficiency, reliability, and balance.

With regards to cheating- don't get me wrong, I understand it's common. However, the All-Americans of old were some of the first known to cheat on a regular basis- hall effect gloves, Smart Cammies (aka shamwows) for wiping easily, turbo mode, and a few tricks to get velocity spikes mid-game on everything from their original automags up through their Shockers and Impulses. The newer team is clean by comparison, and I actually like the way they play when I've seen them- some pure, unadulterated aggression among other things. BUT, the loss of the All-American name was bemoaned. The All-American name is what I have no love for- put the same lineup on the Ironmen or Joy instead, I'll even root for em.

Rant ahead- skip the paragraph if you don't care about cheating.
However, paintball needs to get with the program. Cheating isn't the same as playing dirty in other sports. If I'm wrestling, and I clip a guy across the jaw with an elbow on a takedown, he can still try to defend it. If I'm playing football, and I chop block a guy, he can still try to dance around it. If I take down my opponent, I get two points. If I tackle the ballcarrier, the down is over. Wiping in paintball is like getting tackled, and getting up and continuing to run downfield. It's like a 1st base coach throwing 2 extra balls onto the field on a pop fly. Don't make excuses for them- cheating has no legitimate place in the sport. The original rules stated a hit is an out- not like football, where rules were instituted for safety reasons after fatalities. If the paintball rules were adjusted to say intentional shots to the face are cause for a penalty, I can understand 'accidentally' shooting someone in the face when they head-check. Wiping? Playing on? No excuse. Paintball is a combat simulation at its roots, not a SPORT- it was made a sport for the spectators. Stop pretending anything that can be done, should be done.

That's an entirely off-topic rant, obviously.

Smart Parts made bad business decisions, and lost money. The bank called their loans. They cannot fund their factory teams. They cannot sponsor anyone anymore, apparently. If DLX is somehow so entirely independent (gotta love business law) as to survive, I doubt we'll see any updated models, based on the R&D costs of the original (7 figures, I've been told by someone who worked on the project). The Hindi call this Karma. I call it a good riddance.

Their place will easily be taken. Dangerous Power has some great designs, and have been strangled by royalties. MacDev can take care of the spoolies with ease, and DYE keeps plugging away at shaving a gram from the bolt each year, while upgrading the regulators. The new Impulse deserves a paragraph in a history book, but not much more- its innovation was restricted to further electronic controls, which is really unnecessary without a closed-loop feedback system-- which might have been the next step, and hopefully will be if someone else can pick up the concept without dumping money towards royalties. Intro guns like the Ion and Vibe are a place better served by more robust options, in my opinion, like Tippmanns and Azodins, or more refined options like the MacDev Drone and DP Fusion. The fragile solenoid valve is just a bad idea for the uneducated, while the plastic body and poor tolerances are just frustrating to the experienced.

If Smart Parts patents are not released to an extent, I feel the loss of this company is merely a feel-good moment for the industry, at the cost of worrying many players. However, if licensing is made cheap or free, or the patents are successfully contested and eliminated, I see a massive gap in the current designs that could be quickly filled with some incredible innovations. If things go well on the legal side, expect to see some nero-recoil, self-regulating, high-efficiency markers the size of a Geo hitting the market in about 2 years. I've seen the designs, and patents are the only thing holding these guys back.
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