Special Ops Paintball: Maryland woman tries to cut out unborn baby - Special Ops Paintball

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Maryland woman tries to cut out unborn baby Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   Mobles 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 11:10 AM

View PostFlippy the Wonder Bunny, on Dec 9 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

If someone kills a pregnant women they are usually charged with two counts of murder though, regardelss of which trimester they are in.

^this..which brings me back to my first question.
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#17 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:02 PM

View PostT-Freak, on Dec 9 2009, 10:10 AM, said:

View PostFlippy the Wonder Bunny, on Dec 9 2009, 11:30 AM, said:

If someone kills a pregnant women they are usually charged with two counts of murder though, regardelss of which trimester they are in.

^this..which brings me back to my first question.

The will of the mother.

Besides, last I checked, discussion of this topic is pretty much off limits.
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#18 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:13 PM

View Postike123, on Dec 9 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

Besides, last I checked, discussion of this topic is pretty much off limits.


I thought that was just the discussion of abortion, and it was done so to avoid the crazies on both sides sending the thread out of control.

The question/subject isn't specifically arguing abortion, but is merely asking for clarification on what differentiates Case 1 from Case 2 (in this case, killing a pregnant woman regardless of trimester lands you with two murder charges, versus an abortion which is legal).

It isn't arguing whether the differentiation is right or not, just asking what the argument for it is.


Secondly, I haven't seen the crazies come out yet. So it seems the thread is still mostly in (if not entirely in) control.
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#19 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:27 PM

View PostThalion, on Dec 9 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

View Postike123, on Dec 9 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

Besides, last I checked, discussion of this topic is pretty much off limits.


I thought that was just the discussion of abortion, and it was done so to avoid the crazies on both sides sending the thread out of control.

The question/subject isn't specifically arguing abortion, but is merely asking for clarification on what differentiates Case 1 from Case 2 (in this case, killing a pregnant woman regardless of trimester lands you with two murder charges, versus an abortion which is legal).

It isn't arguing whether the differentiation is right or not, just asking what the argument for it is.


Secondly, I haven't seen the crazies come out yet. So it seems the thread is still mostly in (if not entirely in) control.

True enough.
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#20 User is offline   Equivalence 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 12:53 PM

View PostT-Freak, on Dec 9 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

How come its a "Murder attempt" when the pregnant mother is un-willing, but in an abortion clinic its "a mothers right"?


I merely want to clarify, like Thalion said, not start a debate. If this is out-of-line, feel free to delete.

At the risk of starting a debate, it's due to the concept of a child as property. Until the child reaches the age of majority it is the property of the parents, albeit property with extended rights. If a person murders the mother and the child dies as a result, it's deprivation of life and deprivation of property (two separate crimes). If a person has an abortion, it's not deprivation of life (the mother is still alive) nor deprivation of property (you can do with your own property as you wish, depending on where you live).
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#21 User is offline   Bobbjoe 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 01:03 PM

View PostEquivalence, on Dec 9 2009, 01:53 PM, said:

View PostT-Freak, on Dec 9 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

How come its a "Murder attempt" when the pregnant mother is un-willing, but in an abortion clinic its "a mothers right"?


I merely want to clarify, like Thalion said, not start a debate. If this is out-of-line, feel free to delete.

At the risk of starting a debate, it's due to the concept of a child as property. Until the child reaches the age of majority it is the property of the parents, albeit property with extended rights. If a person murders the mother and the child dies as a result, it's deprivation of life and deprivation of property (two separate crimes). If a person has an abortion, it's not deprivation of life (the mother is still alive) nor deprivation of property (you can do with your own property as you wish, depending on where you live).


And much more simply;

An abortion is a medical procedure. The women here tried to rip open the mother's torso with a razor.

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#22 User is offline   5N1P3R 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 03:15 PM

Epic. Fail.
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#23 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 04:49 PM

View PostBobbjoe, on Dec 9 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

An abortion is a medical procedure. The women here tried to rip open the mother's torso with a razor.


Lethal injection is a "medical procedure" also.

You see where I'm going with this.

@ Equivalence

Where exactly in the legal system does it say that parents own their children? Furthermore, where does it say that in the U.S. Constitution, the basis for the U.S. legal system and the ultimate litmus test for new laws. A mother does not "own" her unborn child - that would be slavery.

Even so, going with you argument for its own sake:

Say that you're right. Until a child becomes a legal adult, he or she is the property of his or her parents, albeit with certain rights, one of which is the right to life. Why does the unborn child not have this as well, under your interpretation of our legal system?
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#24 User is offline   Iron Maiden 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 05:05 PM

That's gross on so many levels
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#25 User is offline   Bobbjoe 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 05:18 PM

View PostAshrak, on Dec 9 2009, 05:49 PM, said:

View PostBobbjoe, on Dec 9 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

An abortion is a medical procedure. The women here tried to rip open the mother's torso with a razor.


Lethal injection is a "medical procedure" also.

You see where I'm going with this.

@ Equivalence

Where exactly in the legal system does it say that parents own their children? Furthermore, where does it say that in the U.S. Constitution, the basis for the U.S. legal system and the ultimate litmus test for new laws. A mother does not "own" her unborn child - that would be slavery.

Even so, going with you argument for its own sake:

Say that you're right. Until a child becomes a legal adult, he or she is the property of his or her parents, albeit with certain rights, one of which is the right to life. Why does the unborn child not have this as well, under your interpretation of our legal system?



Relax. Im not even talking about the legality of abortion. The question here was "how is this differant than an abortion".

And in response to your last quesion: Because it's unborn.

We can sit here and debate this as long as we want, but thats the basis of it. You either support it or you don't, and the only real thing you can use againt it is your own sense of morality.

EDIT: And yes, lethal injection is a medical procedure that I feel very certain you support.

This post has been edited by Bobbjoe: 09 December 2009 - 07:32 PM


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#26 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 05:42 PM

View PostBobbjoe, on Dec 9 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

ADIT: And yes, lethal injection is a medical procedure that I feel very certain you support.


I'm more in favor of the death penalty "medical procedure" involving a bullet.

It's cheaper and still gets the job done.
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#27 User is offline   Painkiller Jane 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 06:24 PM

wow... that's disgusting...

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#28 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 07:02 PM

View PostBobbjoe, on Dec 9 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Relax. Im not even talking about the legality of abortion. The question here was "how is this differant than an abortion".

And in response to your last quesion: Because it's unborn.

We can sit here and debate this as long as we want, but thats the basis of it. You either support it or you don't, and the only real thing you can use againt it is your own sense of morality.

ADIT: And yes, lethal injection is a medical procedure that I feel very certain you support.


So unborn children, even though are alive, have inferior rights? They can be subject to ownership by another? How does that square will the legal system and the U.S. Constitution (not to mention simple morality)?

My point with the lethal injection being a "medical procedure" as compared to abortion is that both end in the death of a living, breathing, human being.

For some reason, the liberals feel inclined to stick up for the murderer or rapist, whereas the leave the child to dry. :unsure:

Still don't see how that makes sense.

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Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

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#29 User is offline   Bobbjoe 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 07:32 PM

View PostAshrak, on Dec 9 2009, 08:02 PM, said:

View PostBobbjoe, on Dec 9 2009, 07:18 PM, said:

Relax. Im not even talking about the legality of abortion. The question here was "how is this differant than an abortion".

And in response to your last quesion: Because it's unborn.

We can sit here and debate this as long as we want, but thats the basis of it. You either support it or you don't, and the only real thing you can use againt it is your own sense of morality.

EDIT: And yes, lethal injection is a medical procedure that I feel very certain you support.


So unborn children, even though are alive, have inferior rights? They can be subject to ownership by another? How does that square will the legal system and the U.S. Constitution (not to mention simple morality)?

My point with the lethal injection being a "medical procedure" as compared to abortion is that both end in the death of a living, breathing, human being.

For some reason, the liberals feel inclined to stick up for the murderer or rapist, whereas the leave the child to dry. :unsure:

Still don't see how that makes sense.

@ Thalion

Indeed.


No, most liberals support the rights of living, breathing, sentient human beings. Well into the second trimester the fetus may as well be a cat or a dog.

This post has been edited by Bobbjoe: 09 December 2009 - 07:33 PM


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#30 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 December 2009 - 07:50 PM

How so? It remains a human fetus (thus alive), not that of a cat or a dog.
Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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