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Little Help with socialism Rate Topic: -----

#31 User is offline   Urban Ninja 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:05 PM

View PostAshrak, on Sep 9 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

I'm with Eville. Let's bring Vigilante justice back and let PMCs patrol our streets!

Can we just elect a local "Batman" to beat up the evildoers? I like that idea. Heck, I'll volunteer! Well, maybe if i'm ever a super rich guy with lots of time on his hands...
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#32 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:05 PM

You know what?

Let's do it.

I'm all for bringing back private militias for law enforcement. Everyone is accountable for obeying the law, and everyone is accountable by the rest of the militia for how they enforce it according to our laws.

No corruption, costs less, and the streets are still clean.

Win-Win.


PW brings up a good point about voluntary versus mandated socialism. I wouldn't really join any socialist group, but I've visited voluntary socialist communities (Israeli kibbutz) - it's like a mini-state in the country that is voluntary to join/leave, usually on the edges of the Israeli controlled land. Works well enough for them, and good for them since they don't force their ideas on the rest of their nation.
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#33 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:08 PM

@ Eville

I was just curious; I hadn't heard that before, though I can find it plausible.

View PostUrban Ninja, on Sep 10 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

View PostAshrak, on Sep 9 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

I'm with Eville. Let's bring Vigilante justice back and let PMCs patrol our streets!

Can we just elect a local "Batman" to beat up the evildoers? I like that idea. Heck, I'll volunteer! Well, maybe if i'm ever a super rich guy with lots of time on his hands...


Or...

"The Saints! Are coming.

The Saints! Are coming."

View PostThalion, on Sep 10 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

You know what?

Let's do it.

I'm all for bringing back private militias for law enforcement. Everyone is accountable for obeying the law, and everyone is accountable by the rest of the militia for how they enforce it according to our laws.

No corruption, costs less, and the streets are still clean.

Win-Win.


PW brings up a good point about voluntary versus mandated socialism. I wouldn't really join any socialist group, but I've visited voluntary socialist communities (Israeli kibbutz) - it's like a mini-state in the country that is voluntary to join/leave, usually on the edges of the Israeli controlled land. Works well enough for them, and good for them since they don't force their ideas on the rest of their nation.


Communalism and Kibbutzs are the best comparisons in this case, neither of which I have a problem with. Heck, if I could find a nice group of folks to join up with I might do it.

And the militia has my vote.

This post has been edited by Ashrak: 09 September 2009 - 09:08 PM

Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
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Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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#34 User is offline   Urban Ninja 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:19 PM

View PostAshrak, on Sep 9 2009, 11:08 PM, said:

@ Eville

I was just curious; I hadn't heard that before, though I can find it plausible.

View PostUrban Ninja, on Sep 10 2009, 12:05 AM, said:

View PostAshrak, on Sep 9 2009, 10:22 PM, said:

I'm with Eville. Let's bring Vigilante justice back and let PMCs patrol our streets!

Can we just elect a local "Batman" to beat up the evildoers? I like that idea. Heck, I'll volunteer! Well, maybe if i'm ever a super rich guy with lots of time on his hands...


Or...

"The Saints! Are coming.

The Saints! Are coming."


True enough. I'm sure I can find more Irish guys to give guns to so they can kill the criminals as compared to guys who want to dress up in bat costumes and fight crime with their bare hands... but then again, The Saints only kill the greater forms of filth. According to their end line, they don't exactly kill the car thieves of the world. So we need someone to go after them.

But, I'm also a big Batman fan ;)

Well, my vote is for the militias then. Bunch of Saints, organized and such, and I mean, 2 of them can take out 9 guys at a time, a whole bunch of guys can do way better.

And I do like PW distinction between forced and voluntary socialism... might need to remember that for class one day... make a discusion out of it.

This post has been edited by Urban Ninja: 09 September 2009 - 09:23 PM

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#35 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:45 PM

I'm all for bringing back the militia.

Also, what was ran in old New England was not full scale "socialism" but rather a solid community with socialist aspects. Let's face it, it is HARD to survive alone. Sharing of resources can be a huge benefit to survival. And frankly, I'd be glad to share with neighbors that I know will do the same.

Like I say, I have no specific problem with voluntary socialism. At it's most basic, is is simply a tight community. That only works at a local level however, where you know whom you deal with. Making it mandatory, and having regional and national oversight committees with no attachment to the people affected, and the whole system suffers.
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#36 User is offline   CamoDeafie 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:12 PM

Quote

so⋅cial⋅ism
  /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA
Use socialism in a Sentence
See web results for socialism
See images of socialism
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
Compare utopian socialism.

Origin:
1830–40; social + -ism


well. source is Dictionary.!

by that...

Quote

socialism

An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists.
The American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source


same site... pretty simple..no? in those case, the government take-overs of GM, and banks are steps towards socialism.....same with health care..... however, it also implies the idea of government agencies as "landlords/renters/bankers" over the tenants/occupants/workers as being socialism in its own right....good examples, colonies of people, cults, church groups, "micro-nations", et cetera....

EDIT: the only TRUE socialist societies that i am aware of, that had been successful, without private enterprise.. happen to be localized churchs and religious groups, but then again, those were on the small scale...I am not sure of nations or empires that successfully had socialist system, outside a monarchy/patriarchy/imperialism/nepotism......although the theory comes from the 19th century; it is possible that ancient nations, empires, and such were socialist in essence, but not considered such, due to the technology and to the means of having classes of economy or levels of trade.

This post has been edited by CamoDeafie: 09 September 2009 - 10:20 PM

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#37 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:18 PM

Oh Camo, did you have to go to the encyclopedia and dictionary? ;)
Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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#38 User is offline   CamoDeafie 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

wasnt sure exactly what people were referring to, as the term "SOCIALIST" makes me think Soviet Union and National Socialist Party.....(yes i;m incurring the Godwin's Law..) and by the way, Germany currently have these two main parties.." the Democratic Socialist Party" and "The Christian Socialist Party"...O_o
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#39 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:22 PM

You'd be correct in those thoughts, in my opinion.
Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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#40 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 10:59 PM

Not to reference Animal Farm again, but..... in Animal Farm..... when you boil a problem down to something as simple as "Capitalism GOOD! Socialism BAD!" you aren't really thinking things through, and you wind up doing things inefficiently -- same in reverse, obviously. We all know that socialized law benefits the nation in a lot of important ways (stability, legitimacy, security, and others). The opposite looks something like Afghanistan. Is socialized law always good? 'Course not, that's why, like, every story ever is about when the law can't fix things. But the benefits outweigh the costs, usually.

In other words, when the only game you play is identification -- "our government is socialist!" -- you aren't really saying anything at all. Instead make a good argument, like "the Federal Government applies Socialism to research, which gives us a lot of cutting edge technology, but also creates some waste when they don't watch it properly." Or, "The government has proven that it has trouble operating a broad services project with 'Cash for Clunkers,' so you have to wonder if it's a good idea for them to take steps towards socializing healthcare." If you steer the conversation this way, you'll fight less over the pointless stuff -- and everybody will learn more. Even you! Just remember that identification words are for the purpose of identification -- not argument. The good arguments are always more complex than that.

This post has been edited by MurderDeathKill: 09 September 2009 - 11:02 PM

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#41 User is offline   CamoDeafie 

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:39 PM

has there been something like a capitalistic socialism? wondering. I mean..... Battlefield Earth storyline is basically extreme capitalism, to the point where the governing bodies happen to be corporation type of people (think investors and boards of directors) and then you have the ideas that (Star Trek, Next Generation) the Ferengi operates everything for their own profits, (again, extreme capitalism), and the Federation is basically a good extreme kind of socialism (again, everyone has duties, no such thing as payment or pay systems, et cetera in this particular series) and then you have everything that falls between socialism and capitalism in terms of economic system....the odd thing i'm seeing is that the two arent mutually exclusive IMO......it is the separation of public and private capital that seems to be the defining term... (IE, no private enterprise=socialism, but at same time...) so....are the two ALWAYS mutually exclusive?
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#42 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 12:53 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Sep 10 2009, 01:59 AM, said:

Not to reference Animal Farm again, but..... in Animal Farm..... when you boil a problem down to something as simple as "Capitalism GOOD! Socialism BAD!" you aren't really thinking things through, and you wind up doing things inefficiently -- same in reverse, obviously. We all know that socialized law benefits the nation in a lot of important ways (stability, legitimacy, security, and others). The opposite looks something like Afghanistan. Is socialized law always good? 'Course not, that's why, like, every story ever is about when the law can't fix things. But the benefits outweigh the costs, usually.

In other words, when the only game you play is identification -- "our government is socialist!" -- you aren't really saying anything at all. Instead make a good argument, like "the Federal Government applies Socialism to research, which gives us a lot of cutting edge technology, but also creates some waste when they don't watch it properly." Or, "The government has proven that it has trouble operating a broad services project with 'Cash for Clunkers,' so you have to wonder if it's a good idea for them to take steps towards socializing healthcare." If you steer the conversation this way, you'll fight less over the pointless stuff -- and everybody will learn more. Even you! Just remember that identification words are for the purpose of identification -- not argument. The good arguments are always more complex than that.


Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad? :D

Well written post MDK, I am inclined to agree.
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#43 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 10 September 2009 - 01:51 PM

View PostPistolWhipped, on Sep 10 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Sep 10 2009, 01:59 AM, said:

Not to reference Animal Farm again, but..... in Animal Farm..... when you boil a problem down to something as simple as "Capitalism GOOD! Socialism BAD!" you aren't really thinking things through, and you wind up doing things inefficiently -- same in reverse, obviously. We all know that socialized law benefits the nation in a lot of important ways (stability, legitimacy, security, and others). The opposite looks something like Afghanistan. Is socialized law always good? 'Course not, that's why, like, every story ever is about when the law can't fix things. But the benefits outweigh the costs, usually.

In other words, when the only game you play is identification -- "our government is socialist!" -- you aren't really saying anything at all. Instead make a good argument, like "the Federal Government applies Socialism to research, which gives us a lot of cutting edge technology, but also creates some waste when they don't watch it properly." Or, "The government has proven that it has trouble operating a broad services project with 'Cash for Clunkers,' so you have to wonder if it's a good idea for them to take steps towards socializing healthcare." If you steer the conversation this way, you'll fight less over the pointless stuff -- and everybody will learn more. Even you! Just remember that identification words are for the purpose of identification -- not argument. The good arguments are always more complex than that.


Four Legs Good, Two Legs Bad BETTER!?

Well written post MDK, I am inclined to agree.


Fixed. Conform damn you! :dodgy:
Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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