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Little Help with socialism Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 07:42 PM

View Postevillepaintball, on Sep 9 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

Everyone pays taxes which, among other things, go to the state owned police force and roadways. Everyone pays into it, the benefits are shared equally: socialism.


That's not socialism.

Socialism is government controlling things unnecessarily (police are necessary, for example)
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#17 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 07:45 PM

Not quite how it works. Would you consider health care to be necessary? Would you consider government run health care to be socialist? Anything controlled by the government is socialist.
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#18 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:06 PM

View Postevillepaintball, on Sep 9 2009, 09:45 PM, said:

Not quite how it works. Would you consider health care to be necessary? Would you consider government run health care to be socialist? Anything controlled by the government is socialist.


To answer your 2 questions in order.

1. No. While it may be necessary to life, it is not a necessary government function. Necessary government functions are things that must be done, such as law enforcement. Things the private sector cannot practically address.

2. Yes, government run health care would be socialist. In that case, the government taking control of the health care industry.
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#19 User is offline   RockFish 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:14 PM

Honestly, if we were anywhere near socialism we'd know it and undoubtedly the American people would not let things get there. Personally I like Warpaint's definition, it works.
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#20 User is offline   Private Silver 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:17 PM

View PostRockFish, on Sep 9 2009, 11:14 PM, said:

Honestly, if we were anywhere near socialism we'd know it and undoubtedly the American people would not let things get there. Personally I like Warpaint's definition, it works.


Except you forget that all the politics act under the "Big Brother" slogan, and say that anything they do is for the benefit of as many as possible, be it the health care, bank bailouts/take overs etc. Most American people wouldn't know whether we were 1000 years away or 1000 days away from being socialist. As soon as majority believes that its the governments job to take care of everyone, were screwed.


EDIT:
Oh, and eville, just because your paying taxes doesn't mean state workers are getting paid. Take P.A for example. A large majority of state workers not directly part of government (Police (statee's) etc.) missed about a month or 2 of pay because Rendell decided to cut everythings budget to ease expense, and yet also somehow managed to keep his 400k Salary, along with all his staff and such.

This post has been edited by Private Silver: 09 September 2009 - 08:20 PM

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#21 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:21 PM

Your definition of socialism is wrong. The private sector can easily address law enforcement needs, and many times, they do. It is socialism plain and simple. Find me one definition from a reliable source that says otherwise.
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#22 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:22 PM

I'm with Eville. Let's bring Vigilante justice back and let PMCs patrol our streets!
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#23 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:30 PM

Sure government run policing is a better option, which is why the people got together and decided that they would all chip in to fund it and they would all benefit from it. Policing started out as if you heard a cry for help and you were an able-bodied person, you were required to respond.
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#24 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:39 PM

Required? Doubt it. That implies some penalty would take place, such as imprisonment or death, if one didn't respond.

This post has been edited by Ashrak: 09 September 2009 - 08:40 PM

Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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#25 User is offline   RockFish 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:44 PM

I think he means required by a code of honor to respond. Who said chivalry was dead?
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#26 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:45 PM

It is dead.
Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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#27 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:51 PM

By required, I meant by law.
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#28 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:53 PM

What was the penalty for not responding?
Alea iacta est ~ The board is set, the pieces are moving.
~ Like the leaves of the forest when Summer is green, That host with their banners at sunset were seen:
Like the leaves of the forest when Autumn hath blown, That host on the morrow lay withered and strown. ~ Destruction of Sennacherib

~ Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the American states a man who more cordially loves a union with his country than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the United States Congress proposes; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America. ~ Thomas Jefferson (modernized)
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#29 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:55 PM

View PostAshrak, on Sep 9 2009, 11:22 PM, said:

I'm with Eville. Let's bring Vigilante justice back and let PMCs patrol our streets!


I would say Militia, but I'm cool with PMCs too.

Seriously, if you want an example of private sectors handling law enforcement, look at the Rodney King riots in LA. Looting, burning, and a few Korean shopkeepers with SKSs. The private sector is no longer equipped to handle security like it once was.

And all socialist benefits are equal to everyone? I highly doubt it. Homes in the city have a police response time measured in minutes, usually 5-10. Where I live, less than 20 minutes from the city limits, takes over an hour for police response, and I know that from experience. Equal my ass.


As for the OP's question, it was not government mandated socialism, but rather voluntary socialism, which I actually am not averse to, and indeed see it as a good solution in some situations. The difference was, you could leave when you wanted to go do your own thing, and you were not FORCED to give up the fruits of your labor. Granted it might make the neighbors less friendly, but if you had a personal garden, you could hoard all the food you wanted from it. Many shared out of kindness and compassion extended to their neighbors, but the government did not come around collecting your private property and distributing it as a committee saw fit. Community grown food was shared equally. If you took the extra initiative to grow yourself a few extra tomato bushes, those were yours to keep or share as you saw fit.

In closing, voluntary socialism is a viable and practical solution in some instances. A good community with good neighbors can overcome many things.

Government mandated socialism, a more totalitarian form, is simply the powers that be exerting their power to live of the common man's labor.

This post has been edited by PistolWhipped: 09 September 2009 - 08:56 PM

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#30 User is offline   evillepaintball 

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Posted 09 September 2009 - 09:00 PM

I dont remember, I don't have that book with me.
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