[Maj Tom]

Dunceb4ll, on Dec 6 2008, 08:38 PM, said:

Propane isn't illegal to refill. sorry. Just illegal to transport refilled propane tanks.

DOT prohibits transportation of refilled tanks, some state/county ordinances actually ban the act of refilling them.

[FrozenCannuk]

Slivers, on Dec 4 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

I heard Tippmann had overheating problems with an automatic propane system. If someone designed one that could overcome the heat issue, I'd say propane is the IDEAL paintball propellant. Cheap as dirt, ridiculously high energy per volume, consistent, and without the issue of high pressures.

A bolt action or pump system is already feasible.

ya well thats the thing. it's the future, if they can make it safe. And i was just thinking about this today... what if they could use a combination, use compressed air or co2 to blowback the bolt, while using the propane as propellant, so it could work in semi-auto. I guess the co2 could act as the coolant, that kills two birds with one stone, if they can make it practical that is...

[TheChaplain]

using 2 different gasses would make things too complicated, not too mention having to carry the two tanks. unless im wrong we're going for more shots per canister so that we dont have to change them, using co2 with propane would be redundant.

[betasniper]

FrozenCannuk, on Dec 13 2008, 06:17 PM, said:

Slivers, on Dec 4 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

I heard Tippmann had overheating problems with an automatic propane system. If someone designed one that could overcome the heat issue, I'd say propane is the IDEAL paintball propellant. Cheap as dirt, ridiculously high energy per volume, consistent, and without the issue of high pressures.

A bolt action or pump system is already feasible. yes it is, which is what this topic is about

ya well thats the thing. it's the future, if they can make it safe. And i was just thinking about this today... what if they could use a combination, use compressed air or co2 to blowback the bolt, while using the propane as propellant, so it could work in semi-auto. I guess the co2 could act as the coolant, that kills two birds with one stone, if they can make it practical that is... you could just use the combustion of the propane to continue the cycle of the marker

semi-auto will be nice, but we would have to overcome the inherent heat build-up of the rapid cycles. some space-age material would be nice to use in the production of the combustion chamber. a metal that can disapate heat quickly would be:

• Gold
  
• Iridium
  
• Lead
  
• Uranium
  
• Bismuth
  
• Platinum
  
• Osmium
  
• Plutonium
  
• Tungsten

i would scratch lead off the list because it is very ductile and i would scratch plutonium b/c it is radioactive. i would use Tungsten or Depleated Uranium as they both have very good strength and heat disapation. Gold and Platinum are a little expensive to use as a material. Not sure about the exotic materials.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific...tals-d_152.html
where i got this info about the specific heats of metals

[Slivers]

Um...how about aluminum? Aluminum has EXCELLENT heat transfer capabilities. And that's what most paintball guns are made of already.

Really though, you don't want to transfer the heat, you want all the heat energy from the combustion to go out the barrel with the expanded gas it produced, not get absorbed by the marker (causing problems for the paint, or in a worst case scerario, getting too hot to hold).

As for the safety issue, I have no problem with propane at all. People are thinking along the lines of a refillable propane tank similar to the HPA tanks we currently use, or a miniature version of what we hook to the grill. What I'd use (If I were on the design team) is the exact same thing you can buy at a decent hardware store that carpenters use for nail guns. Cheap, disposable cartridges that last thousands of rounds. Doesn't get much better than that.

Edited for clarifications.

This post has been edited by Slivers: 15 December 2008 - 08:39 PM

[Gilla]

As a plumber, I was thinking the one pound tanks for soldering that can be found at any hardware.

If you could make it prettier than the Tippmann c-3 and I had money, I'd try it. Until I become rich or the prices drop I guess I'll wait. A bolt action would be neat and very little difference compared to a pump, just location really, but I'd be a nice mil sim adaptation.

[roflmywaffles]

i wouldnt do it.
partially because propane is extremely flamable and...
hmm -sinister smile- tracer rounds for the win!
maybe buring them into a firey mess too... too bad they were on the other side... sigh

[Paintsoldier]

Well, since I, apparently, have a bolt action marker (which is rare by itself, these days) I might as well go all out into the Twilight Zone and use propane too. Some day I'd like to pick up a C3 just to see how they perform. I've only seen one in person and the owner didn't really know what he had.

[Dunceb4ll]

betasniper, on Dec 15 2008, 03:18 PM, said:

FrozenCannuk, on Dec 13 2008, 06:17 PM, said:

Slivers, on Dec 4 2008, 02:22 PM, said:

I heard Tippmann had overheating problems with an automatic propane system. If someone designed one that could overcome the heat issue, I'd say propane is the IDEAL paintball propellant. Cheap as dirt, ridiculously high energy per volume, consistent, and without the issue of high pressures.

A bolt action or pump system is already feasible. yes it is, which is what this topic is about

ya well thats the thing. it's the future, if they can make it safe. And i was just thinking about this today... what if they could use a combination, use compressed air or co2 to blowback the bolt, while using the propane as propellant, so it could work in semi-auto. I guess the co2 could act as the coolant, that kills two birds with one stone, if they can make it practical that is... you could just use the combustion of the propane to continue the cycle of the marker

semi-auto will be nice, but we would have to overcome the inherent heat build-up of the rapid cycles. some space-age material would be nice to use in the production of the combustion chamber. a metal that can disapate heat quickly would be:

• Gold
  
• Iridium
  
• Lead
  
• Uranium
  
• Bismuth
  
• Platinum
  
• Osmium
  
• Plutonium
  
• Tungsten

i would scratch lead off the list because it is very ductile and i would scratch plutonium b/c it is radioactive. i would use Tungsten or Depleated Uranium as they both have very good strength and heat disapation. Gold and Platinum are a little expensive to use as a material. Not sure about the exotic materials.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific...tals-d_152.html
where i got this info about the specific heats of metals

I here carbon fiber works well at dissipating heat. What about a copper radiator sleeve on the combustion chamber with a carbon fiber casing?

[Slivers]

You heard wrong. Carbon fiber will break down pretty rapidly in high heat applications. Copper is okay for heat transfer, but aluminum is better at it.

[Dunceb4ll]

What kind of heat is high heat? So aluminum is a better heat conductor? Why don't they use it intstead of copper in laptop heat sinks then?

This post has been edited by Dunceb4ll: 18 December 2008 - 05:12 PM

[Slivers]

Many are made of aluminum. I've seen them on mac laptop motherboards.

Carbon fiber is an epoxy product, basically carbon strands woven or extruded with an epoxy substrate. Even the best epoxies can be broken down with a propane torch in seconds. I've done this with both JB Weld and West System epoxy (which are the best two I've used) and several lesser epoxies.

You may be thinking about graphite or straight carbon. They use graphite for molds to form ingots from molten metal, so it holds up well. What you want is a material that doesn't absorb the heat, forcing it to vent out the barrel into the air.

[betasniper]

oh yea... some metal that doesn't transfer heat...don't mind me, im a retard. :facepalm@myself:

yes, you want something that contains heat on the inside of the firing chamber. higher heat on the inside will make the gases expand faster due to pressure and the want of increase in volume due to higher temp. im a retard at looking for high heat transfer metals. :facepalm@myself:

[J.W.]

Tippmann claimed that the c-3 could get 50,000 shots from a 16oz. propane tank. If they got anywhere near that num ber, I'm sure it was on the lowest possible velocity setting. That being said, I'm sure you can get a good many shots from a small amount of propane. You would be using chemical energy instead of simple air pressure. A gun could be made that looks exactly like, say, an m-40. It could have a propane tank built into the stock that could be filled via a special nozzle attached to a propane cylinder. This type of technology would allow for much more realistic guns. In an automatic, the combustion chamber would need to be made of a steel that has a high "red-hardness." Such a steel would not even begin to soften untill it reached a temperature that would probably melt the rest of the gun anyway. The heat from the combustion chamber would need to be kept away from the bolt and barrel. The propane would combust in the chamber. The resulting pressure would then be vented through a valve in the chamber and through the bolt, propelling the paintball. The valve could also serve as the velocity control. My freinds and I had to stop playing paintball just because the guy that ran they local shop lost interest and closed up. There is nowhere to get our tanks filled within 45 minutes of our location. Propane-powered guns would solve this problem. I was working on this project untill I lost my job (and, therefore, my funds). When I get some prototypes going, I'll let you guys know. Sorry for the long-winded post.

This post has been edited by J.W.: 29 March 2011 - 12:06 AM