Special Ops Paintball: A question of fairness... - Special Ops Paintball

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A question of fairness... Rate Topic: ****- 1 Votes

#76 User is offline   Ethrealwolf 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 03:30 PM

Here's my problem with the hopper limitations kind of rules-


Outside the double standard (R/T and fast mechs not being subject to them) they're not any better than a marker BPS cap!

Think about it. people say 'well, this way we don't have to check every single marker' that comes through! No, now you have to check every single hopper that comes through. and again, to forestall the inevitable "oh, it's a simple visual inspection" no, it really isn't. A good example is the 9v vs. the 18v fasta loaders- externally, they're the same thing. and to take it a step farther, what's to prevent me, the player, from upgrading my ricochet hopper with a stronger motor and better impeller? Or how about flightcanceled's egg-in-a-revvy mod? there's a visual tell on that, true, but it's tiny- a small part of the raceway sticks out of the bottom of the revvy, but if a player was careful with painting, it'd probably get skipped over. And that's ignoring the possibility of things like running into oily's SAW which technically isn't a HALO hopper on a Ion- it's a hopper based on a halo's guts feeding an ion- and while you'd have to be blind to not pick that out as a nonstandard loader, it still means that you'd have to inspect the marker to check to see if it was legal- which you'd have to do with a BPS cap anyway!

And if a player wanted to get really, really sneaky they could try a gun mod and lie about it- for example I know a few people that have pulled of spimmies without major tells- let alone something like oily's SAW, which could effectively be anything underneath that shroud.

and, of course, all of this is ignoring the fact that the rule is to forestall the use of 'cheater' boards, because god knows that all of us who shoot highend electros have no skill whatsoever and have to cheat to get that needed 20-25BPS to actually win, amirite? /dodgy.
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#77 User is offline   Splatter 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:38 PM

Now on the side against hopper restrictions:
  • Some of the "15 BPS and under" hoppers really are pieces of junk, jamming constantly, and not even coming close to their reported claim of 15 BPS. Our team has tested them all, literally, and some of them are not even as good as a gravity hopper, due to jamming issues.
  • It's getting harder and harder to find the better loaders, like the Halo TSA (also made by Diablo).
  • Like many players have already said, most players, especially in scenario play, aren't going to rail on other players constantly. Those who do will get a reputation, and might not be allowed to return to SPPL or WTL tournaments, if their attitudes are determined to be detrimental or even dangerous. I like to think that scenario play is "self-policing," but maybe I think too positively.
  • I have to admit, when I can actually get my go-fast gun to start railing, it's hella fun, and the sound of the paintballs slamming against a bunker really does make some players think twice about peeking out.
  • Although difficult, it is not impossible to modify hoppers to feed faster than their advertised feed rate. Of course, I would hate to be the team who has a player that is discovered doing this.
  • Lastly, for you younger folks out there, you will all discover sooner or later that life is not fair. You can't please everyone, nor can you make everyone on an equal level, no matter how good your intentions or how hard you try.

Going back to SPPL, maybe a compromise could be to have hopper restrictions for the Rookie division, so that teams with younger or more inexperienced players won't have to worry about being railed upon. I have seen several Rookie teams who have players that have old equipment and masks that don't seem to fit quite right, and always fog up. They also may not have the reaction time to avoid the masses of paintballs that are flying at them; I have seen more than a few "noobs" who panic and roll into a ball while under fire, hoping that their aggressor will stop shooting, while the shooter uses the excuse "He didn't put his gun up, so I kept shooting." As players advance to the higher divisions, they usually learn to react better to situations, and often step up to better gear. Paintball masks definitely come under the "you get what you pay for" department in terms of safety, fog resistance, and comfort.

All I know is that playing in the SPPL is wicked fun, and I have made lifelong friends with teammates, other teams, officials, referees, sponsors, field owners, and tons of other people that I've met. Being able to compete adds a little something extra to the game, rather than just wandering around Jungle Island shooting guys. Like I've already said, it doesn't matter to me whether there are hopper restrictions or not. I just like to play.
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#78 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:58 PM

[quote name='Splatter' post='2253794' date='Dec 2 2008, 10:51 PM'][quote name='ghost93' post='2253575' date='Dec 2 2008, 05:26 PM'][quote name='Splatter' post='2253548' date='Dec 2 2008, 07:08 PM'][quote name='Zach_attack' post='2252935' date='Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM']Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.[/quote]

The WTL tournaments are BYOP, so this idea is moot. Limiting paint will have little effect on the field's income.
Yes it will. People still buy their paint from the field sometimes. And when they are shooting an ungodly amount of paint and run out they buy more from the field.
Umm, if you read the point of this thread, it is not about "sometimes" at the field, it is about during the WTL tournaments.I didn't say it was about "sometimes" at the field. During the tournament if they run out, they still have to buy more.

My question is, why do players want to be able to shoot 24+ BPS? I play SPPL (our team was second in the nation in our division this year), and I have a "speedball" gun - yes, I call it a gun - that says it will shoot 30+ BPS. I don't shoot that fast, and I can just barely move my fingers fast enough to make it start ramping in the first place, let alone keep it ramping for more than a half-second or so when I'm screwing around with it. I really only got it because it looks cool.There are other reasons to own high ends other than speed. And believe it or not you can turn electros on semi. Then they won't ramp. Shocking, I know. Duh - if you had any reading comprehension, you would understand that I have a high-end electro. Since I don't have the dexterity to ramp, I keep my super-duper marker on semi at all times. In fact, my entire team pride themselves on using semi-only. Wow, way to resort to personal insults there. If you don't use ramping why did you bring it up? And after 3 shots most guns will start to ramp. Or after 4-5 bps. If you can't shoot that fast thats a little pathetic, no offense.

The most important point about limiting rates of fire is not so much about the "fairness" of high rates of fire. It is a very valid safety issue. Our masks are designed to take a 300 fps hit to the lens and frame. Multiple hits in the same spot will increase stress on that spot exponentially. That means that each hit does not just add the same amount of damage as the previous one - it actually multiplies the stress, and a mask that is designed for paintball can fail, or even be forced out of position on a player's face. I've seen it. This law of physics also applies to human flesh, and successive hits to the same spot can cause significant damage.Ya. And a paintball will really hit in the exact same spot for 20-30 balls. It only takes about 4 to 5 balls in the same spot to cause permanent damage, and at 24 to 30 BPS, that's 6 to 7.5 balls hitting within a quarter of a second. That is pretty much the exact same spot, unless you are Superman or The Flash. And it doesn't need to be in the exact same spot on the side of your mask to knock it aside. A paintball gun most of the time will not be accurate enough to hit in the exact same spot that many times. Especially when both players are trying to avoid being hit.

The SPPL hopper rule is in place because it's the only way to monitor and control the 15 BPS cap. Then why isn't it in place for mechanical markers? It isn't the only way to control it. Have a ref inspect guns when they chrono. Mess around with them and try to see if they will go into ramping even though they are tourny locked. The SPPL doesn't have enough refs to inspect every player's gun before every game, and the WTL sure as heck doesn't. Plus, Have you ever used a cheater board? You cannot get it into cheat mode by "messing around" with it. If they don't have enough refs to check guns at chrono then who is watching them chronograph?Cheater boards that bypass tourney locks are available for almost all electros now. The NPPL and XPSL have millions of dollars in fundingReally? The NPPL just declared bankruptcy. They don't have millions of dollars in funding. They used to - that is how they could have two refs per player and realtime Goldwave rate-of-fire testing. Really, I don't remember ever seeing 28 refs on the field during games. Care to explain that one to me?, so they can afford to have Goldwave parabolic microphones to target individual players and test their BPS (not to mention that speedball fields are much smaller and more open than typical SPPL fields). The SPPL does not have that. If you didn't know already, the SPPL hasn't been a part of Spec Ops since last year, so it no longer has the seemingly unlimited backing of Mr. Orvis.

As far as mechanical markers and RT's being able to shoot significantly faster than 15 BPS - there are probably fewer than 100 mechanicals in existence that can actually do that, and far fewer players that can actually work the sweet spot.
Mechanical Autocockers can be set up to shoot pretty damn fast. And theres no way to cap them. Why don't they have to use a special hopper? I am not going to give you a lesson in Newton's Laws of Physics, but mechanical Autocockers cannot shoot as fast as an electro. Even an Automag R/T or an A5 with every possible upgrade by Tech T or any other aftermarket supplier can only hit about 18 to 20 BPS in the most ideal conditions, even though some makers say that an A5 can shoot up to 30 BPS. If someone has one that is faster than that, come on out to Vegas and show me. Have you ever tested the ROF of any mechanical marker? I have been playing paintball for almost 25 years, and have owned some of the fastest guns, mechanical and electro, that were ever made. Once again, there are probably fewer that one hundred mechanical guns that can shoot consistently faster than 15 BPS. That's total guns, not 100 kinds of guns - just one hundred. Period. And it takes a great deal of concentration to work the trigger of a mechanical just right to get that many balls out that fast.Well of course they won't shoot as fast as an electro. But you can get them above 15 bps if you tune them right.

I don't give a crap whether there is a hopper rule or not, or whether I'm playing against someone shooting ropes of paint or someone with a Phantom, as long as my safety isn't at stake. I definitely don't want my livelihood jeopardized because some knucklehead has an APE board (just an example Dan; I love APE boards) shooting 30+ balls per second at my head.Because we all know that anyone with an APE board automatically overshoots and has no sense of safety. :dodgy: Again, there are other reasons to buy those products. Yes, I know. You obviously didn't get the hint that I have APE products, and I enjoy them very much. Then your arguement makes pretty much makes no sense. Why does the board have anything to do with it. And btw, if someone was shooting 30 bps when they should be shooting 15 I think somebody would notice.

So I ask again - [b]why
do players want to shoot ungodly rates of fire?
[/quote]
They shoot "ungodly" amounts of paint to keep players in their bunkers. At 4 or 5 bps people can still run out or snapshoot pretty easily. At 15 or 13.3 bps it's a lot harder. But is 24+ BPS really necessary? And just because they can shoot that fast doesn't mean they always do.

If you are going to put a rule in place make it fair for everyone. Not just people that use markers you don't like.

I would also like to point out another reason for the SPPL's hopper rule. When the league was made it was a part of Special Ops Paintball. As you know Spec Ops has pretty big ties with Tippmann. Thats why they make so many mods for the A5. If you know anything about Tippmanns you know that the A5 can only use 1 type of hopper without some serious modifications, and that is the cyclone feed. Now why would Spec Ops keep guns that they make mods for and that are made by one of their major business partners out of their league? If they had made the rule fair thats exactly what they would have done.
I am not even going to get involved in the whole Spec Ops/Tippmann conspiracy theory line of crap. If you hold Spec Ops in such disdain, why are you a member of the Spec Ops forums?When I joined the forum in 2005 the company was awesome. Now it makes useless poo 90% of the time. Thats why I stick to the lounge. And just because the Specops owns the forums doesn't mean I have to love the company. That isn't anywhere in the rules. In fact, if you ask around most people feel the same as I do about SO.[/quote]

To all of you who actually have some reading comprehension:
Wow, another cheap shot. Usually thats what people do when they know their arguement isn't very strong.

Too many players base their "opinions" on rumors and hearsay, and ignore the facts. Stop listening to what monkeys are telling you, and do your own research. If you don't like a product, you don't need to explain why; it is your right to have your own opinion. Just don't use inaccuracies and falsehoods to try and sway someone else.Wow, saying that I haven't done research. Maybe you should do some.

[quote name='Pandemonium']Modern masks are designed to withstand these forces. You might have seen an outdated mask or old mask break or show stress after multiple repetitive hits. But a decently new lens on a mask will be able to withstand the stress you describe. It would be stupid if not designed to, especially in tournament paintball.[/quote]
You are correct, but ASTM standards for paintball masks only specify the lens and frame withstanding a limited number of hits (I don't remember how many exactly; maybe a factory rep can post the actual ASTM standard), and the area of the mask outside the lens frame is not required to have any testing at all. I don't remember about the ear covering; I don't think that is specified in the standard either. But you appear to have misunderstood that part of the post - I have witnessed a mask knocked to the side, not broken. And that [b]was
in tournament 'ball.That is from a mask being too loose. They have straps for a reason.

[quote name='EpShot' post='2253785' date='Dec 2 2008, 08:36 PM']i think there are far greater concerns with being hit in the neck and back of the head, rather than the lens. Particularly when bunkering is concerned[/quote]
Absolutely!
[/quote]
Ya, that is a problem. But most people will aim for the pod pack when they bunker. And few people can really walk 15 bps while they are running at a dead sprint.
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#79 User is offline   EpShot 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:08 PM

Quote

Quote

Quote

i think there are far greater concerns with being hit in the neck and back of the head, rather than the lens. Particularly when bunkering is concerned


Absolutely!


Ya, that is a problem. But most people will aim for the pod pack when they bunker. And few people can really walk 15 bps while they are running at a dead sprint.


most people i see aim of the head, or rather i think they aim mid height. Either way it a bit of an assumption to make for which you have no statistical analysis.. at all. is it important? when considering particularly high rates of fire at close range, i think so. Most leagues dont' have much a of a problem since they are all limited, but i get nervous in cases where it is not regulated and some kid can choose to shoot 25+ bps and those balls might be Monster Balls, and don't though out the possibility of shooting hot(even by accident, i got a nasty bleeding welt when shot across the field from a guy shooing a Mini at 340(hand held chrono, best investment yet). Can't imagine(certainly wouldn't want to) being bunkered at close range)

I pretty much only play private games or at certain fields that have particularly good refs
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#80 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:21 PM

View PostEpShot, on Dec 3 2008, 07:08 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

Quote

i think there are far greater concerns with being hit in the neck and back of the head, rather than the lens. Particularly when bunkering is concerned


Absolutely!


Ya, that is a problem. But most people will aim for the pod pack when they bunker. And few people can really walk 15 bps while they are running at a dead sprint.


most people i see aim of the head, or rather i think they aim mid height. Either way it a bit of an assumption to make for which you have no statistical analysis.. at all. is it important? when considering particularly high rates of fire at close range, i think so. Most leagues dont' have much a of a problem since they are all limited, but i get nervous in cases where it is not regulated and some kid can choose to shoot 25+ bps and those balls might be Monster Balls, and don't though out the possibility of shooting hot(even by accident, i got a nasty bleeding welt when shot across the field from a guy shooing a Mini at 340(hand held chrono, best investment yet). Can't imagine(certainly wouldn't want to) being bunkered at close range)

I pretty much only play private games or at certain fields that have particularly good refs

Most of the time when I hear people on here talking about bunkering they say they aim for the pack. I guess I'm not exposing myself to too many speedballers though. Since there aren't many that live around me.
Also you are right about the risks being higher in walk on matches. Everything has a little more risk since it's a little less structured. But I was talking mostly about leagues.
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#81 User is offline   Ecellg 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:24 PM

View PostSplatter, on Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Lastly, for you younger folks out there, you will all discover sooner or later that life is not fair. You can't please everyone, nor can you make everyone on an equal level, no matter how good your intentions or how hard you try.

No, you can't please everyone, nor can you hope to make a Tippmann as good as an electro (aka everybody equal level/life not fair), but you can make everyone have 15bps max.

This post has been edited by Ecellg: 03 December 2008 - 06:57 PM

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#82 User is offline   Ethrealwolf 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:54 PM

View PostEcellg, on Dec 3 2008, 05:24 PM, said:

View PostSplatter, on Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Lastly, for you younger folks out there, you will all discover sooner or later that life is not fair. You can't please everyone, nor can you make everyone on an equal level, no matter how good your intentions or how hard you try.

No, you can't please everyone, nor can you hope to make a Tippmann as good as an electro, but you can make everyone have 15bps max.


I'll agree- life isn't fair. but this isn't life, it's a paintball tournament circuit. And those had better be fair, otherwise, what's the point in playing?
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#83 User is offline   Stuffy 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 06:59 PM

Wow this thread looks very similar to another on I could of sworn I saw over on MCB...lol.

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#84 User is offline   Florentine 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:05 PM

Here, let me ask you this man, say you were given 09 ego's and 09 Geo's to play with, and everybody else had mil-sim markers. Would you like to use a gravity hopper? And they use faster loaders? No. Now say you were using your mil-sim markers, and a teammate of your had a speedball marker, wouldn't you like them to shoot as fast as possible? Yes.
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#85 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 07:36 PM

View PostEthrealwolf, on Dec 3 2008, 07:54 PM, said:

View PostEcellg, on Dec 3 2008, 05:24 PM, said:

View PostSplatter, on Dec 3 2008, 07:38 PM, said:

Lastly, for you younger folks out there, you will all discover sooner or later that life is not fair. You can't please everyone, nor can you make everyone on an equal level, no matter how good your intentions or how hard you try.

No, you can't please everyone, nor can you hope to make a Tippmann as good as an electro, but you can make everyone have 15bps max.


I'll agree- life isn't fair. but this isn't life, it's a paintball tournament circuit. And those had better be fair, otherwise, what's the point in playing?

I agree. If players want to limit themselves by using mil-sim markers they should learn to compensate. Players shouldn't be punished just because they use better, faster markers.

This post has been edited by ghost93: 03 December 2008 - 07:36 PM

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#86 User is offline   Florentine 

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 11:55 AM

View Postghost93, on Dec 3 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

Players shouldn't be punished just because they use better, faster markers.

Right here is the answer for this thread.
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#87 User is offline   S.T.P.L. 

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 01:43 PM

Hello All,

First, I want to thank you all for showing so much concern.

Also a big thank you to Gadget Soldier and Dirty Samurai, for taking so much flak.

The check is in the mail. LOL

We started the W.T.L. because of players like you.

Passion for the sport of paintball is what keeps it alive.

You all in the mid-west and east coast have a lot of woodsball history.

We still have growing pains here in So Cal.

Our Scenario / Milsim / Woodsball Community has always been under served.

While the SpeedBall World has always been in the spot light.

I think things are going to change here in cali. with the passing of the NPPL. “RIP”

I think sponsors will start to look closer at where the money really is.

We the Scenario / Milsim / Woodsball Community have bigger personal incomes than your average speedball player,

We don’t ask every paintball and non paintball company to sponsor us.

I believe we are more willing to give then to take.

Most big scenario games have some type of charity they give money to.

Our first goal when making the WTL was to make this a player’s league.

All players input will be welcomed.

That is how it started and will continue.

If players feel they had a hand in shaping and making the WTL a fair league,

They will continue to come and play.

Everyone benefits.

The field owners, the paintball sponsors, and the players.

We are all tied into this together.

If the field owners fail, we will not have a place to play, if there are no more fields, then no more sponsors, ETC.

We only charge $50 per player and it's BYOB.

It cost more to run it then we make.

We the owners of the WTL all own our own businesses.

This is not a money making venture for us, we love the sport and are doing our best to keep the passion alive.

So thanks again for all you help with the rules.

Because of your passion we will be giving the teams a choice as to what they want for our upcoming event.

1. SPPL hopper and gun rules.

OR

2. Limited paint.


Thank you again for all your help and support.

David Justin
President
W.T.L.

This post has been edited by S.T.P.L.: 04 December 2008 - 01:47 PM

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#88 User is offline   Zzaque 

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 01:57 PM

I am glad that is over. It started out as a really good post and we had a lot of good ideas. What happened? I am glad you got some good feedback. Wish I could attend myself. I wish you guys the best of luck on this event.
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#89 User is offline   S.T.P.L. 

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 02:17 PM

We will let you know what happens.

The event is not until Feb 15th.

Thanks again

David Justin
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#90 User is offline   EpShot 

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 02:45 PM

please learn

to format

its rather annoying

to read line

by line

thank you

:)

also i have high hopes for you organization being that i live in LA.
The main problem i have with milsim is that rifle style markers do NOT work well for trigger walking. There for i Can easily balance an Ion or Mini (two i've tried) Where as my A5 not so much. (you can but not as easily, particularly when running) And of course most fields here don't allow full auto.

However if you held paint limit scenarios, I would be VERY much interested.

-ep
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