Special Ops Paintball: ATF approved my silencer - Special Ops Paintball

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ATF approved my silencer Rate Topic: -----

#76 User is offline   Illusion 

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 07:28 PM

View PostRowanPaintball, on Oct 8 2008, 07:41 AM, said:

Illusion, would you be willing to send another sample to the ATF with an extra paintball barrel? Get a spare paintball barrel, and put the insulation on it as you intend to use it. Send that into the ATF, if they say it is legal then the debate will end.


No, I'm not going to send the ATF a barrel along with another piece of pipe insulation. It isn't necessary. I gave them a very clear description of what I wanted to use it for and how I intended to install it. They know that it fits tightly over my barrel and doesn't fall off. They know it's not permanently attached to the barrel and they know that the barrel of most paintball markers are detachable.

If you think about it there is good reason in the 2004 case for the barrel being welded to the marker. If a silencer were permanently attached to the barrel but the barrel was removable then some enterprising individual would manufacture some accessory for a firearm, a laser sight perhaps, that attached to the gun using a mounting that just coincidently used the same thread as the paintball barrel. The next thing you know lots of these accessory's would be purchased along with a paintball barrel/silencer and people would have two readily obtainable legal components which if combined would make for a great silencer. The people at the ATF are not stupid.

If someone wanted to use a piece of pipe insulation on a portable firearm (the ATFs terminology) they wouldn't need the paintball barrel. They would just wrap their gun barrel with tape until the insulation fit. The paintball marker is simply not part of the equation. What you do with a piece of pipe insulation is of no concern to the ATF until you attach it to a portable firearm, at which point you are in violation of the law.

Besides, the genie is out of the bottle, why give government an opportunity to put it back in? My 2 cents anyway.

Thanks

Illusion
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#77 User is offline   Niceguy74 

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 07:39 PM

WELL SAID!


btw, that windex post was awesome. LOL on that one



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#78 User is offline   junckie25 

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Posted 08 October 2008 - 07:41 PM

Now if your field owner allows you to use it it will be cool but if he/she doesn't.... haha you just waisted your time.
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#79 User is offline   RowanPaintball 

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 07:15 AM

Illusion, I understand that you are doing a lot of research on this, but I think you are missing some thing. I have also done allot of research into this issue, and have been led to believe that what you are proposing is in fact a violation of the law the minute you place it over the paintball barrel. Please be carefull, not just for you, but for all the kids you have now told to go forth and do this. This is a good way to ruin some ones life when the ATF or some other local LE official decides to make an example of him or her because they have been led to believe it is OK. I think you know as well as I do that if you send in a paintball barrel with the insulation on it that they will delcair it a silencer and you will have lost this argument, hense the Geni is back in the bottle. So instead you are leaving it to some poor kid who is not very well educated in the legal system to take the fall and put the Geni back in the bottle. Be responsible, prove it is a ligit solution.
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#80 User is offline   tchynerd 

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 08:22 AM

I wonder what sort of db decrease you would get from just firing a gun through a paintball barrel. Granted I wouldn't put a silencer on my marker anyways (In my experiance making the marker so loud that it echos [by way of a diska] is a better option and much easier) but you gotta wonder if just the barrel alone would cause a decrease in db.
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#81 User is offline   Illusion 

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Posted 09 October 2008 - 10:09 PM

View PostRowanPaintball, on Oct 9 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

Illusion, I understand that you are doing a lot of research on this, but I think you are missing some thing. I have also done allot of research into this issue, and have been led to believe that what you are proposing is in fact a violation of the law the minute you place it over the paintball barrel.



Have you read my entire correspondence with the ATF or just the letter I received from them which I posted on this forum? I sounds like you haven't. No matter what I do some will still be critical. Even if I do what you suggest, someone else will claim that it hasn't been tested in court. Perhaps someone who paid the $200 tax plus whatever the cost of a professionally made silencer doesn't want to give up his advantage and will send a barrel and a piece of insulation to the ATF hoping get it reclassified as a firearm.

When reviewing my case the ATF had three options;
1. Classify it as a firearm silencer.
2. Classify is as not a firearm silencer.
3. Refuse to classify it for some reason. Most likely because they needed something else from me like all or part of the marker I intended to use it with.

The ATF had all the information necessary to make an accurate assessment of the device. For the record I did obtain legal advice before sending anything to the ATF. What I think I am hearing is that because others have tried unsuccessfully to find a solution, it must be impossible. This didn't stop the guy in the 2004 case from finding a solution. Many of us are unwilling to weld the barrel to our markers so this solution isn't widely implemented. The solution I found isn't ideal either. It's not as rugged as some may wish and the material although very common can be tricky to find. This solution may be short lived if the ATF changes the definition of a firearm to include air guns.

I feel that I am beginning to ramble. There are only so many ways to reword the same information. I don't stand to make a dime off this information, I have no product to sell. I could have kept the information to myself, but this would benefit only me. I have learned a lot reading this and other paintball related forums and am very appreciative of that. I found a way to make a small contribution to the sport by providing information along with supporting documents. Can I guaranty that some agency such as the ATF won't try someone anyway? Of course not. Although if they come after anyone I would expect it would be me not some 16 year old kid. What I do guaranty is that the documents I have published are real and not modified in any way other than the removal of my mailing address. If the administration of this forum has any concerns they can remove this thread whenever they wish. I did seek permission before posting here as well. I hope this helps.

Thanks for your comments

Illusion
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#82 User is offline   Ethrealwolf 

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Posted 10 October 2008 - 05:01 AM

That's pretty sweet Illusion!

I'll be sharing this out with a few of my 'sniper' teammates, they should enjoy using it. Thanks for your work.
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#83 User is offline   hoodtrix 

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Posted 10 October 2008 - 08:12 AM

illusion. Do you have the address of where & who you sent this little thing too along with case# for referance. Because what I would like to do is simply write them and say "look is this item once put on a pb barrel (not permitly fixed to it) illigal, once this item is then removed from the pb barrel is it illigal and does painting it black/camo/anything to make it look like a silancer illigal" im sure the answers will all be no but to stop pppl from reading between the lines for somerthing that is not there and limit any issues with local law inforcement If the questions are clearly asked and not grey'd with legal mombo jumbo we will all be satified.
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#84 User is offline   druid 

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 01:09 AM

View Posthoodtrix, on Oct 10 2008, 10:12 AM, said:

illusion. Do you have the address of where & who you sent this little thing too along with case# for referance. Because what I would like to do is simply write them and say "look is this item once put on a pb barrel (not permitly fixed to it) illigal, once this item is then removed from the pb barrel is it illigal and does painting it black/camo/anything to make it look like a silancer illigal" im sure the answers will all be no but to stop pppl from reading between the lines for somerthing that is not there and limit any issues with local law inforcement If the questions are clearly asked and not grey'd with legal mombo jumbo we will all be satified.


#1 - run on sentences are no longer cool. Spellcheck works wonders too. They may reject you based upon that alone...
#2 - The address is on the correspondence to and from the ATF. Try looking at what he posted.
#3 - You don't need to write them to stop people from reading between the lines. They do so because they don't understand what they are reading...or choose to ignore it because they want to debate everything they see.

For the last freaking time...

THE ATF DOES NOT CONSIDER A PAINTBALL MARKER A FIREARM.

THE ATF DOES NOT CONSIDER THIS COMMON CYLINDER OF FIBERGLASS INSULATION AS A SILENCER BECAUSE IT DOESN'T CONTAIN THE COMMON ELEMENTS USED IN THE CONSTRUCTION OF ONE...INNER PORTED CHAMBER+BAFFLING MATERIAL (or 'wipes')+OUTER SHELL (even with a coat of paint).

SINCE THE PAINTBALL MARKER ISN'T A FIREARM...AND HE DIDN'T "CONSTRUCT" ANYTHING OF THE FIBERGLASS CYLINDER...HE DIDN'T MAKE A SILENCER. HE SIMPLY SLID A PRE-EXISTING ITEM OVER THE PAINTBALL MARKER AND THEY SAID IN THIS INSTANCE IT'S NOT A SILENCER.

HOWEVER...IF SOMEONE DID THIS TO A TRUE FIREARM - AND IT MUFFLES THE REPORT - IT IS CONSIDERED A SILENCER AND THEREFORE ILLEGAL UNLESS REGISTERED WITH THEM.


GOD...I SWEAR people go out of their way to make things difficult......

This post has been edited by druid: 11 October 2008 - 01:10 AM

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#85 User is offline   Eskimo 

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 06:24 AM

oh. well, trying to find this pipe insulation has been harder then I thought. that is an older style of insulation. and the only type around here is a rubber crappy floppy tube. :huh:
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oh noes!! :(

were did you say you found yours??
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#86 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 11:27 AM

View PostEskimo, on Oct 8 2008, 03:24 PM, said:

this is the end of this. The point is. putting it on a paintball marker is legal. But if illusion puts this over top a Real Fire arm. AFT will be bashing down his door in notime.



The point is suppressive quality of the device. If a suppressive device reduces the retort of a firearm to a certain decibel level, and it therefore meets ATF criteria to be considered a suppressor, it doesn't matter what the suppressive device is attached to, it falls under their regulation. With the exception of a few states and Canada, suppressors are NOT illegal, but restricted and regulated, regardless of what the suppressor is attached to.

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#87 User is offline   Stuffy 

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 12:00 PM

View Postjunckie25, on Oct 8 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

Now if your field owner allows you to use it it will be cool but if he/she doesn't.... haha you just waisted your time.


As mentioned before by russc from the 5 or 6 fields that Ive played at the field owners really dont care what you have attached to you barrel...raincover, loudener, whatever.

In response to what evil fingers said about field insurance, Ive talked to the head manager at one of my local fields and Im almost 100% positive that insurance policies say nothing about raincovers, and other barrel attachements. :laugh:

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#88 User is offline   Warpaint 

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 12:06 PM

View PostStuffy, on Oct 11 2008, 03:00 PM, said:

View Postjunckie25, on Oct 8 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

Now if your field owner allows you to use it it will be cool but if he/she doesn't.... haha you just waisted your time.


As mentioned before by russc from the 5 or 6 fields that Ive played at the field owners really dont care what you have attached to you barrel...raincover, loudener, whatever.



I've played with two of my markers that have mock suppressors (purchased and DIY) on several fields, and none have ever inspected my markers.
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#89 User is offline   oerllikon 

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Posted 11 October 2008 - 08:04 PM

very good idea, and creative. i dont see what all of the arguing is about... this whole thing seems straight forward.
i think it would be cool to see a comparison of with and without on youtube.
do you think thats a probability?
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#90 User is offline   The Shepherd 

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Posted 12 October 2008 - 06:03 PM

Is their any end to crazy stories these days?
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