Special Ops Paintball: The SPPL from a veteran competitor. - Special Ops Paintball

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The SPPL from a veteran competitor. Warning...very long post. Rate Topic: *---- 1 Votes

#61 User is offline   HighWay Man 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:28 PM

There just dosen't seem to be an easy quick fix especially since there isn't a real budget to work with to solve the problem like in a buisness company or something.
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#62 User is offline   MURPH 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:34 PM

if it was quick and easy, it would have been done by now. We now need to, as players, focus our energy into coming up with a solution. Lots of players had issues with some of the rules last year, expressed their concerns and with some hard work and some dedicated players and officials many if not most of the problems were solved. Lets do it again to solve this one. We can keep posting up bad reff stories, and how anrgy or frustrating it is OR we can help be part of the solution. Crazy has given us that motivation to climb aboard and help.
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#63 User is offline   HighWay Man 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:37 PM

I've already added my 2 cents earlier on pg4 I don't know if you saw it or not.
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#64 User is offline   ThirdI 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:57 PM

The final solution is obviously going to have to come from Schloob and PaleRider, of course. There have been many constructive suggestions on this topic before and, one of the greatest things to come from this thread is the few new ideas that have come out as a result.

On the subject of compiling a list of potential players, that was started this year but, for whatever reason, nothing came of it. Hopefully that happens for 2009. I was going to post a link regarding this but I can't seem to find the Ref Association thread now.
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#65 User is offline   HighWay Man 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:04 PM

Is this list like a contact list for the league so they contact you if they need you to ref?
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#66 User is offline   MURPH 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:06 PM

View PostHighWay Man, on Jul 24 2008, 09:37 PM, said:

I've already added my 2 cents earlier on pg4 I don't know if you saw it or not.


i did read it, i wasn't directing my comments to you personally, just to get it out there I think you had some good ideas. We had a players clinic held by Darryl trent last year in Oklahoma, many of us attened. It would make sense that you could do the same for a reff's cliinc. ThirdI, we could always start another one, put me down.
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#67 User is offline   HighWay Man 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:18 PM

Well the ultimate fix would be a full time reffing staff but until they get to that point there has to be a band aid, a temporary fix, with the players as the major part of the temp fix. Maybe each big team with plenty of people could commit one or more persons to be a ref for a season or change the rules on becoming a elite team to having to ref for 2 quailifiers on top of pre-existing conditions.

This post has been edited by HighWay Man: 24 July 2008 - 10:22 PM

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#68 User is offline   Schloob 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 06:50 AM

The idea of a ref assocation was started earlier this year and that is something I really want to do. There have been a couple of things that have gotten in the way and I apologize for that but I will explain. First of all, sometimes having an idea is the easy part but actually doing it is the hard part as is the case here. I had this really rough idea but didn't know where to start in putting it together. I have talked with someone from the NPPL to get information on how they do I have also talked with Josh who runs the CFOA and gotten good ideas but creating an entire reff training / certification program has become more time intensive and required more work than I realized so the process has been slow. We'll definitely have it in place by 2009 and I think you will like what I have done. Basically it will be a web based tutorial system. You login and go through our ref program online and take a test at the end. I have a friend building this for me right now and it is really cool. We'll have video clips with voice over instruction that shows refs exactly what we want done. They can see actual calls being made, good and bad. This is a great system and I am really excited about it.

I will have a similar version for fields that have refs that want to ref. They will have to go online and the course a week before the event. We'll then be able to review their results and talk with them about the things they didn't understand. The guys with the CSPPL have done a great job with this this year. They have a similar thing going at the field where the refs take a manual test. This is great because they are able to tell excatly what the ref doesn't understand and they can correct it before the ref takes the field.

The other thing I am having done is a refing video constructed that can be shown at each event by the head ref to the field refs. The video will always be the same, and show actually examples on how to make a call or deal with a bad call or negative situation. The Regime is helping do this in conjunction with some guys from SPLAT that are doing the actual filming.

Anyways, these are some things we are doing behind the scences that because you don't see it often appears we aren't doing anything but we are. These things are huge and I think they will really improve our reffing and make it more consistant across the board.

Once again I apprecaite all your remarks. I have talked with Krazy and he has agreed to come refs some events so I am excited about that. He and I will also be doing a round table discussion with a few others on Blast Radius pod cast on Monday. Once that is done I will give you all the details so you can all get online an hear it. If any of you have specific questions post them hear and will discuss them on the pod cast.
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#69 User is offline   Majic19 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:15 AM

This may be a little off topic, but may go a long way to help alleviate some of the other problems we saw in Oregon that I've also read about in other qualifiers. It seems many teams/players (especially the newer teams), not just the refs, don't know the rules and/or the format and are not familiar with how they apply. Would it be possible to have the team captains also have to demonstrate at least a basic knowledge of the rules at the time of registration? Then it would be up to the team captain to inform, educate and train their team members on the rules and format of the SPPL. This puts the responsibility back on the teams/players to educate themselves and be informed before stepping on the field. Plus it would give the SPPL a "get out of jail free card" when teams or players say they were not informed about a rule or the certain parts of the SPPL format. Player complaint, "we didn't know...." Answer, "Talk to your captain."



As far as a solution to the ref situation; Having a full time, paid, professional ref staff would be ideal, but realistically that isn't going to happen without drastically increasing the cost of the events. So, Here' my 2 cents worth.

To give an incentive for players to ref, award 1st place seeding points to a TEAM that ref's an event. Obviously the team can not be playing in the event if their whole team is reffing (This gives you at least 10 refs or more per team) Plus The team does not get penalized by losing out on the chance to earn points and you avoid any appearance of impropriety by not allowing team members to officiate in the event in which they have team members playing.

To avoid teams trying to effect overall points standings make it so the teams can not ref within their own division. (If there is really a concern of that happeing. I know I would have no problem having Nemesis or irregulators -for example- ref within the Masters division, even though I play in the masters division). If that is an issue, have the head ref be from a different team as the field refs to proved some checks and balances. Or have completely neutral head refs all together. After each game both team captains can confer with the head ref (Which they should do anyway) to verify point totals and give any feedback, negative or positive about the game. This builds in an instant way for the head ref to immediately correct a problem or at least be made aware of a potential problem. If there is a problem with a ref then that REF's team's team captain is contacted and told to immediately deal with the situation by either personally working with that ref and/or removing and replacing the ref. (Obviously one complaint about a ref making a bad judgment call isn't grounds to have him removed but the head ref would have the discretion to instantly remedy the situation if it is a problem or continues to be a problem.)

This would allow ref Teams, field owners and organizing staff, months of advance notice as to who their refs are going to be at any given event. This also gives the team that is going to be doing the reffing as well as the organizing staff months of time (We know the schedule how many months in advance?) to ensure the team is adequately trained and qualified to ref the event through the processes that have been mentioned above.

Allow one Team per division (one elite, one masters, one rookie team) per event to ref. This way you don't have three Masters teams (for example) earning first place points for reffing at one event. You would also be able to split up the rookie teams (possibly less experienced) wanting to ref by mixing them in with the Masters or elite teams. Heck, if you have 3 teams reffing two fields thats at least 30 refs, 15 per field. You could have the ten least experienced refs on the field shadowing the more experienced refs so they can learn how to properly do the job (On the job training).

Here is an example; I play on Forest Demons Masters. We did not go to to the Cali or Utah Qualifiers. However, 100 1st place points for reffing that event would have been a great incentive for ten us to make the trip. Especially if our travell expenses were covered. Our cost to get their would be minimized because we would all car pool and pile several of us in a room together. No pay for doing the games saves the SPPL $100 per Ref. We would have known months in advance which event we were reffing so planning and training would have been taken care of.

The reality is that not all teams can afford the additional time off to ref an event. But For those of us who plan on attending multiple events anyway, this allows us the chance to save a little cash, (no entry fee or paint costs) but still earn points towards our standings. And the SPPL has much grater control over the quality and training of who is going to be officiating the games.
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#70 User is offline   BlackLight Z 

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 08:45 AM

I still think the easiest solution is make each team competing supply a ref or 2 for the divisions they aren't competing in. Have formal training the day/night before, or even th morning of. Also send a training manual of some sort out prior for study, or the online which takes care of alot, just very time intensive as Schloob pointed out. Would probably still need a head ref to make sure there is continuity in the rules. I would make the head ref a SpecOps Rep, but thats just me.

Pros:
1) There won't be a shortage of refs
2) Will hopefully build on itself each event/year. players will hopefully carry over to following events/years.
3) Everyone wants to represent their team in a positive manner, may eliminate the lazyness and lack of knowledge by so many refs. I am sick of seeing refs sitting on their butts off to the side talking at every event I go too while the battles blaze on.
4) Increase overall knowledge of rules and game among teams and players
5) Promote honor and fair play
6) fields/promoters don't have to pay refs
7) There is incentive to do the best job, as they guys you are reffing, may ref your game later on.

Cons:
1) Would need to have individuals identified before hand, and have some type of training manual
2) Would lead to less rest for individuals reffing and playing.
3) Logistically would have to get there earlier
4) Will take time for individuals to gain experience
5) That same incentive to to a good job, could lead to the opposite

This post has been edited by BlackLight Z: 28 July 2008 - 08:50 AM

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#71 User is offline   Eskimo 

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Posted 28 July 2008 - 05:59 PM

Well, I dont think I really have enough knowelgde to base an opinion for myself, But I will say that It certainly seems like improvement is on its way.
I really hope this works out well for everyone.
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#72 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 02 August 2008 - 11:00 PM

I'm only glad that I am not the first person from ForestFire to speak up in this thread, but I really do share alot of the sentiment shared by Krazy8. Over the years, I have seen, and heard about, some horrid things with the reffing at the SPPL. I have been witness, and many a time, victim to the calls. I accept that there are no perfect refs. I am even the head ref at the field where I work, and I certainly am not perfect. I have made my mistakes, as both a player and a ref, and I know that others are going to as well. That being said, there are two things that I want to comment on that I have read in this thread.

First, I proposed last year, or at the begging of this year, about adding incentive to getting SPPL teams to ref the Qualifiers by giving them points for a 1st place finish. I want to say that I suggested this earlier this year, since I found out about the Divisions. Plain and simple, you are going to get less complaints about teams refs, although there is always the calls of bias, from having teams ref, simply because often times, we know the rules with about an 85% certainty to begin with. Understand, no one is 100%, as both the Irregulators and ForestFire were victims to rules that did not exist in Oregon. If a team plays at least one Qualifier, and they ref one, then they should be allowed to get the 100 points that would come with a 1st place or Sportsmanship win. But they have to play at least one other Qualifier to get them. No reffing two Quals and going to Finals with 200 points. I think that it will work. I really do, as I have seen nothing but honor and integrity out of all of the teams that have reffed before.

Now, this is kind of minor, but it goes back to something that Curtis said back on page 1 or 2. He mentioned that Spec Ops in general, and the SPPL specifically, do not own the fields where the SPPL is played. True in most cases. I say most because, and maybe I don't know the full logistics of this, but the last two years in Utah for the SPPL tournaments have not been held at a normal field. Now I have no idea what, and where, exactly the Retribution field is, but I was of the impression that Spec Ops owned or leased the field in 07, to the East of Ogden, and the SPPL was getting all of the money, not the split that normally happens with a field owner and the SPPL, for that event. As well, this year, not knowing exactly the specifics, but I was under the impression, and maybe mistakenly so, that the Utah SPPL, which was held in the Eastern part of North SLC, was the owner of Spec Ops land, which meant that the SPPL was getting all, or much more, of the money. Please, feel free to correct me if I wrong.

Now I have to say this. It is difficult to find a paintball field that is big enough to set up two four to seven acre sized SPPL fields on. Certainly not impossible, but difficult. If it means that the SPPL does need to find a new field for setting up the Northwest Qualifier, I am sure that it can be done, and I know of a field or two here in Washington :P that could accommodate it. I know that it can be done, and I don't want to get into the why's and whatnot, but it has been done already in adding in a few new dates and locations for the SPPL in 2008, as well as changing locations for at least one of the Qualifiers this year.


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#73 Guest_PaleRider_*

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 07:17 AM

View PostLament, on Aug 3 2008, 12:00 AM, said:

Now, this is kind of minor, but it goes back to something that Curtis said back on page 1 or 2. He mentioned that Spec Ops in general, and the SPPL specifically, do not own the fields where the SPPL is played. True in most cases. I say most because, and maybe I don't know the full logistics of this, but the last two years in Utah for the SPPL tournaments have not been held at a normal field. Now I have no idea what, and where, exactly the Retribution field is, but I was of the impression that Spec Ops owned or leased the field in 07, to the East of Ogden, and the SPPL was getting all of the money, not the split that normally happens with a field owner and the SPPL, for that event. As well, this year, not knowing exactly the specifics, but I was under the impression, and maybe mistakenly so, that the Utah SPPL, which was held in the Eastern part of North SLC, was the owner of Spec Ops land, which meant that the SPPL was getting all, or much more, of the money. Please, feel free to correct me if I wrong.


It is minor, but lets talk about it, At present and to the best of my knowledge there are no commercial fields in Utah, players in UT have to find outlaw fields which most have been shut down by local authorities. Several of the Local teams have small practice fields but none are large enough for SPPL play on a 12 plus team format.
There is one professional scenario game producer, Paradox Games run By Allen Turner who puts on 2-4 games a year and several of the local teams run fund raiser games which are also fun to attend.

Two private fields that the SPPL has used are the retribution field in Bountiful and the high mountain field at Monte Cristo. I have not seen a deed or any kind of owner ship record but I am confident the SPPL does not own them. Utah is unique because the SPPL puts on the whole event, which includes, ALL the cost and ALL the expenses that the other SPPL fields already have set up. Insurance, food, refs, extra staff, restroom facilities, the infrastructure that is already in place on a commercial field ALL has to be set up and then taken down. SO yes ALL the money from the SPPL UT event comes back to the SPPL and then it also pays for ALL the extra expense for the event too. Also please note that the SPPL has run events where just 3-5 teams show up and ALL the losses go to the SPPL too.
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#74 User is offline   killaofthewest 

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 02:48 PM

View PostMURPH, on Jul 24 2008, 07:18 PM, said:

just some quick calculations on a pro reff staff per event (i'm sure they are low for pro reff but you get the point)
reff pay ($100 per day/ 2 days for 10 reffs) = $2000
Travel expences ($300 per reff/flying/driving) = $3000
lodging (2 reffs per room/ 5 rooms/ 2 nights at $80 per night) = $800
food/water ect (per reff $80) = $800
FOR A GRAND TOTAL OF $6600 (i'm sure its way more...)

$100 per reff per day is actually pretty good, I got $50 per day at Oregon this year.
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#75 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 03 August 2008 - 08:42 PM

View PostPaleRider, on Aug 3 2008, 07:17 AM, said:

It is minor, but lets talk about it, At present and to the best of my knowledge there are no commercial fields in Utah, players in UT have to find outlaw fields which most have been shut down by local authorities. Several of the Local teams have small practice fields but none are large enough for SPPL play on a 12 plus team format.
There is one professional scenario game producer, Paradox Games run By Allen Turner who puts on 2-4 games a year and several of the local teams run fund raiser games which are also fun to attend.

Two private fields that the SPPL has used are the retribution field in Bountiful and the high mountain field at Monte Cristo. I have not seen a deed or any kind of owner ship record but I am confident the SPPL does not own them. Utah is unique because the SPPL puts on the whole event, which includes, ALL the cost and ALL the expenses that the other SPPL fields already have set up. Insurance, food, refs, extra staff, restroom facilities, the infrastructure that is already in place on a commercial field ALL has to be set up and then taken down. SO yes ALL the money from the SPPL UT event comes back to the SPPL and then it also pays for ALL the extra expense for the event too. Also please note that the SPPL has run events where just 3-5 teams show up and ALL the losses go to the SPPL too.

Now whats odd, and since I don't live in Utah, I don't know for certain about this, but I have found what appear to be several commercial fields. Now I don't know if any of them are big enough to host the SPPL, but this is what I have found:

Action Center Paintball in Morgan (Field and Store)
Paintball Addicts in West Valley (Field and Store)
Red Cliffs Paintball Park in St. George (Field, specifically states that it is open to the public)
Battlegrounds Paintball in Grantsville (Field)
Then there are four others that are either Fields with Stores, or just a Field

And I know that Velocity was where the 2006 SPPL Utah event was held, but it seems to have gone the way of the do do.

Now, you talk about certain things here, there was no food onsite for 2008, but there was for 2007. There was no wavier for 2006, but there was one for 2007. The netting seems to have been already there at both locations, and I believe that they have been used for paintball before, so I am guessing that they at least see a few events per year. Restrooms are the simple HoneyBuckets. Staff, well, that is a bit of a wrinkle. I can say that I have been informed that Jayson was supposed to pay one team to ref X amount of money, and instead paid them Y. Where Y is less than X. I can't actually verify that with facts though, so let's not get into that.

Everything being said, I do hope that the SPPL is able to make more money off of the Utah events, because I believe, and maybe it is simply my desire to see the good in people, that the money helps to fund other events, like when you have a tournament with only five teams. I know that Jayson still has to travel around the US, and gas isn't cheap. I know that he puts in the hours, I know that he works hard to make things work. It isn't easy, but then again, anything worth it in the long run isn't going to be.


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