Special Ops Paintball: The SPPL from a veteran competitor. - Special Ops Paintball

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The SPPL from a veteran competitor. Warning...very long post. Rate Topic: *---- 1 Votes

#46 User is offline   Serenity 

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:24 PM

View PostLomarandil, on Jul 23 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

A few great reffing calls off the top of my head

OKDDAY 06, Kartoon Express. Playing in our third game, against SOCOM (repeat match.. I love these guys). Using the rocket launcher, but more of a distraction than anything else.. I can't hit a thing. I finally make a good move, flag a ref using hand signals, and take a shot. Ok, I take three shots. The third hits the tree right behind the player. A second ref, without giving away my intention at all, positions himself on top of that player, and he's out within seconds. Head (from SOCOM) then proceeds to flank and tear me up. haha.

Kartoon Express were awesome, and exemplify what refs should be!

UTAH 07. Irregulators. I'm playing for US SOCOM (ha, tides have turned), up in the logfield on the topside of field one. My opponent dives into a bunker, but one of our players puts a few shots on his back in the process.. He calls for a paintcheck. Krazy8's son (name?) runs licketly split through the logs, but trips on one of the last ones, and takes a hard, hard fall. He gets right back up, dives into the bunker, checks the player (calls him out), and goes right back to reffing. Either the kid is as flexible as Gumby, or that's pure dedication.

Krazy's son's name is Krunchy.

UTAH 07, 5150. Field two is nearly impossible for me to play pump, all the brush keep snagging my shots. So, on a whim, I take a detour, walk the lower edge of the field, and end up right by their deadbox. I hunker down for a little bit to wait for the respawn, once they go, I walk up to the main flag and pull that, talk to their defender and make him take the hit. I walk up the trail to swing, find two of their players, surrender one and shoot the other in the foot. Finish walking to swing, pull that flag, and fall back for a bit to figure out where their guys are. During this escapade, I walk by nearly half a dozen refs. Not a single one gives any indication of my presence. They keep their radios low calling in the flag changes. They hardly even acknowledge my presence. One sideways glance, and I would have been done. Excellent job there.

Those are just a few, I'm sure I'll think of a few more to add in the next few days.
Lo

OOOhhh, shiny things.......
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#47 User is offline   ThirdI 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:16 AM

Jayson, thank you for responding here and addressing the concerns. To begin with, might I recommend Hoskins Field in Lebanon, OR, about an hour south from Splat Action? It's a similar field layout, great owner and the guy cares enough about the sport to do what is necessary on his end.

As far as the hopper rule is concerned, yeah, it sucks, but buying an SPPL legal hopper costs less than a case of paint and gives you a great backup anyway. Being able to run any hopper/marker combination would be awesome but, until the speedball leagues can figure out a foolproof way to monitor BPS on a small enclosed field, hopper restrictions may be what we're stuck with. But hey, that topic's been hashed out way too much already and is kinda off-topic here.

Regarding problems at Utah 07 with reffing, I would greatly appreciate if you would take the time to PM me (probably copy it to Krazy8 as well) and let us know what those issues were so we can learn from them. No better way to learn than from your own mistakes. In the defense of us, Kartoon Express, 5150 and Bad Karma, while we'll never be able to attain perfect reffing, where we earned props from the players was in the fact that we read and knew the rulebook and cared enough to try for that perfect reffing mark.

As I said earlier, the rule changes made this year have, in my personal opinion, given us a 95% polished rulebook. There are still some minor issues to get clarified but I'm pretty sure what we have right now beats what they had in the early tourney days. "Mama Bear" (Serenity) is gonna kick my butt this weekend for saying this but, I have to disagree with her on that point and say that the changes made to the rulebook were necessary and have been successful (with some growing pains along the way).

Since I'm addressing your post point-by-point, I'll briefly repeat myself again. I'm sure that the Oregon field was financially penalized and may not even want the SPPL back next year because of it, but a solution MUST be put in place to prevent these issues from happening or at least to soften the blow. Again, fielding "semi-Pro" SPPL refs for 30% of the ref staff would go a long ways to making SPPL reffing acceptable.

I have not decided yet on whether or not I will play next year. I will, however, promise to be part of the solution and offer my services as a ref for at least 1 event next year while asking for nothing but expenses. If you need my services as a head ref, I'm willing to do that as well. I truly hope that this can be fixed and I would love to show up in 2010 with 2 Irregulators teams again.

In the end, nobody doubts whether or not you care about the SPPL. Nobody doubts that you've done a lot of work to make it better. The issue at hand is, with all the changes that have been made, none seem to have been made in the most important part of any paintball event and that is the reffing. (Correction, 2nd most important, right behind safety and props to the SPPL on that.) These forums are the primary means of communication between players and staff of the SPPL and we have heard promises here over and over and even seen requests for volunteers to a Ref Association this year. The end result is, promises have been made regarding the reffing issue and next-to-nothing has been done about it. I want the SPPL to succeed as much as anybody and more than most since this is my only opportunity to play competitively without entering a speedball field, but if the necessary measures are not taken to fix the reffing problem, we're going to see more and more teams disappear from the league, starting with 3 that I know of from Oregon alone.
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#48 User is offline   Lomarandil 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:20 AM

View PostSerenity, on Jul 23 2008, 11:24 PM, said:

Krazy's son's name is Krunchy.


Ah, yes.

Although I'm thinking I might just keep calling him Gumby. Just for the heck of it.

Lo

edit: I'm with ThirdI, I love how the ruleset has changed and become IMO polished. Complex, maybe. But it really doesn't take all that long to understand it...

This post has been edited by Lomarandil: 24 July 2008 - 08:23 AM


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#49 User is offline   Schloob 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:13 AM

ThirdI I agree with you. The reffing is the biggest issue that hasn't been fixed. Although most of the rule changes won't be obvious to players when we made the changes a lot of those changes we made to make reffing the event easier. We tried to write the rules in such a way that refs coudl actually focuses on reffing and not rembering the rule about the red bubble, ten second count, how to properly handle the intel objective or the airstrike radius and the number of players to remove like 1/2 of 25/32 unless the commander is in the area otherwise you have to multiple the whole thing by the quadratic equation and square it. I make a joke hear because even though the rules are difficlut for you as a player think how hard they are for a ref to remember even if he read them 100 times.

I would say every rule change this was made to hopefully make reffing easiser except the half time/switch sides which was 100% a player driven change. I want players to play the game and not be pinned in a dead box for the last 40 minutes of a game with no real chance of coming back and winning the game. The half time give us that.

ThirdI give me a call on my cell and I will go over them with you if you would like. It's not a big deal in my opinion because I appreciate what you did and did an amazing job. I also dismiss some player complaints for example because I know players don't like calls that go against them.

Here is another example. If you guys read these forums you will read what a great job Bad Krama did at the Utah qualifier. Every team raved about what a great job they did and thought they were some of the best refs ever. Well not every team, there was one that has been on some other forums bashing the league and telling people that Bad Krama sucked and were the worst refs ever. I couldn't disagree more. but that is one teams opinion. But I think this example makes my point that sometimes reffing (not always and I am not saying this is the case in this discussion) can be very subjective. If you don't have any calls go against your team or hinder your teams game it's very easy to say " yeah sure, the reffing was good" but when a blown call goes against your team it's a totally different story.

One last thing, I played in the Utah qualifier several years ago and I think my team got screwed by several bad calls. I was somewhat involved wtih the SPPL at the time so I knew for a fact we got screwed and I was PERTURBED at Rory and the head ref at the time. So I have taken that experience and tied to use it to improve things in the SPPL now. It's obvious I still have work to do but I want you to know as a player I really do understand where you are all coming from. Trust me, I would much rather be playing than running this thing.
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#50 User is offline   BlackLight Z 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:44 AM

View PostPaleRider, on Jul 23 2008, 04:13 PM, said:

3- Ref training manual and certification
4-Some sort of incentive for SPPL teams to participate as refs

EDIT: after posting, I read through the rest of the responses, and plenty of people have already made this suggestion. So I committed the standard forum sin, thou shall not post before reading. Apologies...but since I can't delete, I'll leave everything and 2nd, 3rd, or 15th the motion.

Just an idea in regards to 3 and 4.

Have individuals from teams competing ref for other divisions. it would be a great way to increase numbers as well as eliminate payment. just a little "give something back" type thing. Have elite ref for rookie, rookie for master, and master for elite, or use a combination of the other 2 divisions to eliminate a conflict of interests. I don't think you really need incentive, I'm sure lots of people would volunteer, especially if they will already be there competing.

could also make it mandatory that each team supply a ref or 2

as the to the training just do it before, can maybe set up some online training, with some online testing, a refresher in the morning.

Just some thoughts

EDIT: after reading the rest of the posts, thought I should throw some more in. The SPPL is in my eyes is the the hottest format in paintball right now. I will typically judge how a day went not by how many guys I shot, or how many times I was shot, but how badly I am cramping on the way home. I tell ya, the SPPL makes my hammies cramp as bad as any football game I've ever played in. My abs even cramped once...that was a first. This is the most intense way to play paintball I've found. Sure its not as constant as speedball, but you aren't trying to move through the air bunkers as quietly as possible, without shooting, looking for a capture objective, meanwhile your eyes are dartng around looking for the opposition, and your heart feels like it is going to jump out of your throat. Its amazing. Sure its not perfect, but as long as humans are involved in the reffing process, human error will be right there too. The highest paid officials in the most popular professional sports make mistakes, I don't think we can expect anything else from our fellow paintballers. That being said, I do believe in constructive criticism, just be constructive.

This post has been edited by BlackLight Z: 24 July 2008 - 10:05 AM

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#51 User is offline   REBELS_PEACHZ 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:27 AM

From a Rook/newb-never-played-SPPL (YET!!!) I was reading the thread and it got me thinking. I know I've got NOWHERE near the stories and experience that you guys do. But I was wondering, and it may be a stretch, if it would be possible to add a few hours of Ref training to Elite Weekend? I know that Elite Weekend is a huge and costly production to put on and I can't wait to go next summer. And I'm sure adding a few EXTRA HOURS AND PERSONNEL will be another headache (is it MOATI that's running the E.W.?). But I was thinking that it could be maybe an extra half day or so, add a little bit to the entry fee, but take a couple hours to train the interested players. My thought here was that even though the E.W. has a draw from all over the nation and nationS, that at least then if some teams came heavy, and the refs were in short supply, you might have a few guys who could volunteer (hopefully the trained ones) and help out the ref staff.

You know it may be a stretch for a player to want to pay extra money to learn how to ref by SPPL rules, but I'm sure there would be guys who would do it. Especially the guys from Qualifier areas (none in MT) that may not have a team, but then they can still be in the action and be a part of the games. It could also transfer to everyone's home games and then you'd have guys learning to play by the SPPL rules, make it less of a "shock" when they arrive for a Qualifier...

Like I said, this is a newb to SPPL and paintball in general, but it's a thought. So, take of it what you will, but I know I for one would definitely take part in the extra ref training. Especially since it would probably be the only way at the moment to participate in an SPPL game. All problems aside (because stuff happens!!!) I am really looking forward to the Elite Weekend and I WILL FIND A WAY to make it to a qualifier next season.
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#52 User is offline   ThirdI 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 10:38 AM

Rebels Peachz, do not put yourself down because you've never played the SPPL or Elite Weekend. In my opinion, you've stumbled upon one of the most inventive ideas related to this issue. While it's only part of a solution, I think that ref training at Elite Weekend, at least as an option, would be great and could definitely help with enlarging the pool of qualified SPPL refs. Thank you!
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#53 User is offline   Krazy8 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 01:15 PM

So mutliple PM's and a phone call later the situation is still there and things still need to be worked on.

But it is the middle of a season and all we can do is try to effect change in our own ways.

This was my choice to effect such changes. In the past I did sit back and work behind the public eye.
Now I am stepping up and being vocal about it. Players need to see what is happening both from a negative standpoint and a constructive one.

What can be done. Well for one we as players who are tired of the craptacular refs the fields supply for these games can step up and become the reffing staff the SPPL needs to continue.

I said in the past I would. And as of this morning I have accepted the offer of reffing in upcoming SPPL events.

Are there others out there willing to put forth the effort?

I figure if we start now we are one step closer to a real SPPL reffing staff for next season.
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#54 User is offline   MURPH 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 05:16 PM

This also maybe my last year playing sppl....but not because i don't enjoy it. I just can't keep up to the young ones that are up and coming (we need a seniors league...lol, but thats another thread) but i will definitly be coming back to help reff these events. There are 4 within reasoable distance from home for me. There are 4 events this year that i could have gone to and helped the reffing staff (we usually only play michigan, but played illinois as well this year) but that leaves 2 others. Use teams to help out, give them seed points like the affiliate events. Elite teams reff masters, masters ref rookie...this way there is no confusion about reffs trying to bump there own teams ranking by reffing one sided. Players have made this a great league to play in and again they can help the league out in what seems to be it's biggest problem.
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#55 User is offline   Lomarandil 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 05:59 PM

Playing devils advocate, what happens when a team, TEAM SCHLOOB, has a Masters team, an Elite team, and a Rookie team? Does their obvious success in recruiting give them a waiver to reffing? :)

(Bring three teams, play reffing free!)

Lo

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#56 User is offline   MURPH 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 07:18 PM

Good point.....but its a small world man, we all know one each other. but i still believe the players would make excellent reffs. Jayson i'm sure will do everything in his power to make the rest of the season as painless to the players as possible. Here's what i think.....been quite a few players saying they would reff. At the end of the season, have all players who would be willing to reff post up with name, location, reffing and player expereince and lets build a database for reffs. We have a test for reffs in the csppl thay must pass before reffing a game. sounds goofy, but you know, it workied....the reffing has been pretty good up here. Once they pass the test, a simple phone interview (to make sure they know what they are talking about) and once thats done add'em to the list. I know its sounds like alot of work but it's cheaper then a full time reff staff. When joes paintball shack is holding an event in Smalltown Kentucky, check the data base and sees whos local (or within driving distance) If joes paintball has 10 reffs bring in 6 from the pool to beef it up. The league can decide to apply dicsounts to players and there teams, apply seed points, help out with travel expeneces or what ever. We start now by next season there may be 50 reffs/players and we can build from there. Lets face it , unless your team is willing to pay $1000 plus entry per tounry i don't think a pro reff staff is in our near future.

just some quick calculations on a pro reff staff per event (i'm sure they are low for pro reff but you get the point)
reff pay ($100 per day/ 2 days for 10 reffs) = $2000
Travel expences ($300 per reff/flying/driving) = $3000
lodging (2 reffs per room/ 5 rooms/ 2 nights at $80 per night) = $800
food/water ect (per reff $80) = $800
FOR A GRAND TOTAL OF $6600 (i'm sure its way more...)

Crazy.....i believe you care deeply for this league and it must have killed you to start this post but as you can see others share your concern. Thank you for pointing this out.

I believe we all now know what needs to be fixed, it's just a matter of finding out how to fix it. Lets try and come up with solutions to this problem....

Edit----maybe an aprenticeship program.....wanna be head reffs have to spend time with Palerider at en event, help out and shadow, same with field reffs. Lets not forget deadbox reffs either, they are an importnat part of the game and it seems thats were we put all the new reffs, they have the most interaction with the team and players

This post has been edited by MURPH: 24 July 2008 - 07:39 PM

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#57 User is offline   HighWay Man 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:11 PM

My eyes are bleeding from all this reading, but i think i got the gist of everything. You kind of get lost in all the bad reffing stories, so when you finally get to the post with good reffing stories its a nice breath of fresh air. Need more of those or it starts to feel like reading news coming out of Iraq-"Good News For People Who Love Bad News"-Modest Mouse.

Anyways, I grew up an army brat so being part of that community is all I know. I got a job at a local paintball place where we get a lot of army traffic for both training and recreation. I have gotten to known a lot of great people and personally see how the military works and trains. I said all that to set me up to give my opinion. In the military a unit sends out one person to learn specific skills like hand to hand combat or something similar where it doesn't have to be a huge training event for the whole company. Than that person with the new skill comes back and teaches his newly learned skill to his unit. I've heard about speed ball workshops and such so why not have a SPPL referee workshop. Invite teams to send one person to be trained and those people could go out and train their teams. You could do it between seasons or if possible hold it a national major event, I think I read somone post about doing refree training at Elite Weekend. Best idea I've read yet. I don't mean mine, you know what I mean.
Yeah I know there will be some cost issues so maybe you could make a deal with one of the places you held a SPPL event to let you hold a referee workshop at the field the day before the field's big senario game and maybe have those referees that were trained help the field with reffing the senario game as a test. Or you could hold it like a weekend convention kind of deal. I don't know, now I'm just throwing stuff out there that I haven't fully thought about.

There must be something about this thread that makes everyone write to much, this turned out longer than I thought. Well there's my 2 cents. You can throw in the streets or add it to the jar.

This post has been edited by HighWay Man: 24 July 2008 - 08:12 PM

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#58 User is offline   Timbertiger 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:22 PM

View PostSchloob, on Jul 23 2008, 09:01 PM, said:

WOW! That was paintfully; oops hold on I almost sliped off the ledge I was looking over and thinking of jumping off of. All joking aside, that was painful to read. I agree with most of it and disagree with most it if that is possible. The one thing that seems to be forgotten here is the hard work that has been done to make the league better. Althoug alot of the comments made are dead on some of them are completely out of conext and completely one sided. Everyone has had a bad call made. I am still PERTURBED that Michael Jordan pushed off Brian Russell in the NBA finals a few years back that cost the Utah Jazz a title. But that's another story. Anyways, I can site here and type all day about this topic and I proably won't change anyones opinions but I'll try by saying this.


This makes me laugh.............apples.............oranges

There will always be complaints about calls! There will always be complaints! Any time a law, rule anything is being enforced there are complaints. That's not what is be talked about in this thread. A ref is required to make judgement calls all day long. Did he feel the hit? Did he play on? Is that a hit or splatter? Those are subjective rules. What is being complained about here is the non-subjective calls. If I use your Basketball analogy.............a push off will always be subjective..........there is always contact and a foul is subjective! Now if in that instance the ref ran up to Brian Russell and said Strike 3 your out of the game that would be a closer analogy. We had a player called out on a rule that did not exist, and a head ref back it up. Is it just me or is there no real excuse for that? I am yet to hear the needing to use the restroom problem addressed...........does that sound at all like something that should have happened? Again the head ref clarified the "rule" and said she was not allowed to leave under any circumstances. I think someone owes those two players an apology for what happened in Oregon!
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#59 Guest_PaleRider_*

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:33 PM

Bottom line the refs staffs provided by some of the fields
have unacceptable. What is done is done. I can not change
that. We can learn from this and move on or we can keep the feeding frenzy going.

At this point it's just over shooting to cotinue, You have hit your mark, I am hit, I am hit!!!! :)

Jay and I had a great chat on the phone today. Your concerns and comments fall right in line with
the stuff we are already working on, Like a ref manual and on line training and some sort of certification.
Don't have it all nailed down yet. A lot of stuff goes on in the back ground hat never gets posted.

Also remember this league is run by players, It does not yet support a full time paid staff. All of those that help out have real jobs, just like you do and we love paintball just like you do and we get frustrated that things don't get done faster just like you do. I feel your pain.






View PostWELT Magazine, on Jul 23 2008, 08:41 PM, said:

Hey there, Pale Rider!
Good grief, PaleRider, I feel your pain, and sincerely hope you do not take this post in any kind of negative light - I apologize if anything seems that way. As far as advice, the best I can say right now is to have a representative show up before the event (not just to scout the field), but to check out the field's staff a day or two prior. I know it's awful, but even when everyone else forgets their job and leaves you holding the bag, it's ultimately going to fall on your shoulders... but hey, that's why you get paid the big bucks, right? ;)
Best regards,
Jason Manning
U.S. Editor/WELT Magazine


Jason,
Don't know you but your comments are welcome and appreciated. You are one of the few here that sees the big picture. Enjoyed your post very much.
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#60 User is offline   MURPH 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:14 PM

i think we've beat this horse.. dead........pointed out the issues at hand. Time to fix it

This post has been edited by MURPH: 24 July 2008 - 09:27 PM

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