The SPPL from a veteran competitor. Warning...very long post.
Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:23 PM
Anyway, thank you for clarifying the point. Consider most of my points withdrawn
Suggestion: put a contract clause that refs be a certain age? The drawback would be a smaller pool from which to draw refs from for field owners.
Posted 22 July 2008 - 07:34 PM
"All at is subject to political manipulation except that which speaks the language of the same manipulation."-N.S.K./Laibach
"I think wearing camo is dishonorable " - /-wear me!?
Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:34 PM
Pale Rider....you are right. Disapointment is the overwhelming emotion I feel when I think of all this stuff. Writing that lengthy post took alot out of me.
As for supporting the league. I feel I have. Four seasons of play. Five Regionals, three finals and reffed another regional.
I also feel that I am supporting the SPPL with pointing out the problems.
I spent to last four seasons doing nothing but supporting this game. I love the format.
But the same thing happens every year. I spent countless hours on the phone with producers...trying to address the issues. I went out of my way to not air the problems but try to work on solutions.
I made suggestions. I followed the SPPL threads and backed up the leagues rules and explained in detail how they worked for the better of all the players.
And I was told that it was being worked on...over and over again.
After every event it is the same thing all over the country....everybody jumps on the politically correct bandwagon and blathers on about how well and wonderfull it was. And in the past I did just that....spouted on and on about the good things only.
Now I feel that if nobody speaks up it will just get worse. How can you fix what is wrong if nobody shows you what is broken?
The refs are what they are. Underpaid staff and friends of field owners who really...most of the time do not want to be there in the first place. So why keep using a broken tool?!
Age has nothing to do with it. When the Irregulators reffed in Utah '07..we had a two refs ages 12 and 13. You know what made it work....both of them had played in the SPPL...both of them had a good bit of previous paintball experience prior to the SPPL and the both wanted to help! They made calls...paintchecks...and got shot. They also knew the rules and cared how well they did their job.
Head ref...sure I can do it. If fact I had a very promising phone call earlier this year where I said "yes" to just that. Never happened. Nothing else was ever said about it.
I have sat and talked with many of the Irregulators on what can be done.
Every SPPL event needs 4 to 10 veteran SPPL players who will be anchor refs. These anchor refs take the time needed to teach the field refs about the format while the SPPL staff take care of what logistics need addressed to operate the event.
More than likey if you asked current SPPL players, a few would be more than happy to help. Shoot, set up a discount program to entice teams and players into reffing other regional games besides the one they wish to play in. This has been discussed before. It is a simple solution to an ongoing problem.
And you are right....I have not seen all the problems the SPPL staff have to deal with at each event. Never brought up before. Maybe if it was brought up more often people might start offering to help before being asked.
CamoDeafie...you should see that 40somethin guy at a scenario game. He really ties one on then.
This post has been edited by Krazy8: 22 July 2008 - 08:35 PM
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Posted 22 July 2008 - 09:34 PM
This post has been edited by MURPH: 22 July 2008 - 10:13 PM
Posted 23 July 2008 - 12:47 AM
Now to those who say that the issue is the fields..........well some is and some isn't and I'm glad to hear PaleRider admitting that it is there responsibility as well. Realize that on average each of our team members spent over $500 per player to play. One of our players dropped $520 just on paint alone. If I average it at $600 per player on expenses with just our 15 players that's $9000.00 That doesn't include our support staff and their travel and everything else. I don't know about you but it seems to me like if we are spending 9K on a "professional" level tournament we should have some fairly high expectations! Now to put this into perspective, PSP events are $2850 for entry air and everything else, not to mention the teams in that category have major paint company backing. However they are getting
XBall Division 1
1st - $10,000
2nd - $5,000
3rd - $2,500
4th - $1,500
Obviously we aren't playing this game for the money and prizes!
To those who say well the league is still young and growing and changing. There is this old saying:
Fool me once shame on you!
Fool me twice shame on me!
Fool me three times.......?????
Fool me four times.........now I'm feeling like an idiot!
Four years is enough to decide if a President has done a good job and should spend another 4 years in office right?
How about this perspective.........I went to a steakhouse in Las Vegas earlier in the year that cost roughly $100 per person (Smith & Wellinski's or something like that) I had a horrible steak and paid alot for a little bowl of mashed potatoes. My steak was horrible! I've had better at Sizzler! Will I go back? Probably not and I've only been there once!
If it was a brand new steakhouse.........would you give it another shot? If you had two or three or even 4 horrible experiences with your steak would you go back?
Your brand new marker you just dropped a grand on is horribly inefficient and kicks like a mule. It also has a few blemishes. You send it to the manufacturer and ask for it to be fixed. You get it back and find out it's a little smoother but is still inefficient and still has blemishes. How many time do you send it back with little or no results before you tell the company where to stick that marker?
To Black Sheep:
I heard from a couple of our players you were yelled and screamed at again this year by a head ref. I'm not sure you knew that
Once again if you want to help yourselves and the SPPL sit down and thoroughly read the 20+ pages of rules and figure out what they mean. If the refs and all of the players had done this things might have been different?
Also to all of those willing to read through all of this..........the best thing you can do for any Scenario Producer or event promoter is to full address your concerns with them! If that doesn't work try posting up a thread and get others to agree. If that doesn't work kick them where it hurts! Their pocket book! (No, not their nuts that'll get you put in jail!)
Posted 23 July 2008 - 06:23 AM
It's part of doing business, If I aired all the crap Jayson/the SPPL goes through to put on an event I could type till noon. But it's just part of the deal.
This problem is not new nor is it going to end the world of the SPPL
There are things a ref can control on the field and things he can not. I am not talking the SPPL I am talking any sporting event. Professional, well trained, highly paid referees make mistakes. Right now around the world there are a number of organizations discussing this same thing. I am not giving you an excuse I am trying to put some perspective on this subject. I am glad we don't have the NBA's problem ....holy crap
Players in all sports cheat, I have heard that a ref could call holding on every play in the NFL, How fun would that be to watch? If a player wants to cheat to win he will. There is a full time world wide anti-doping association for the olympics. Millions are spent fighting an epidemic of players who cheat at professional, semi-pro, collegiate, high-school, Jr high, and the SPPL. my point this is a concern in all sports.
IF a player wants to cheat in the SPPL he will. If he wants to modify his marker and hoper to exceed the 15 bps he will, if he wants to wipe and play on he will. I can not control what you do on the field, you are the only one who can. We catch some and we miss some. We aspire to be better. I am greatfull that there seem to be player in this league who aspire to play better too.
A ref watching a player as he gets hit, the player pops 2-3 more shots off and then reacts to the hit and calls out. He played on, but the ref didn't call it. Why? Everyone on the sidelines saw it, it was a clearly a bad call. Human error? was he on drugs? I don't know why? Better training and more experience would help I am sure. Again if that perfect ref is reading this call me.
At the finals in 2007, I had a player who I used to respect come up to me and for about ten minutes I got to stand there and have him rip me a new one. His parting shot was you suck, your refs suck, your rules suck and this league sucks!!! Shortly after that the other team walks up and every one of them shake my hand and tell me what an outstanding job we did as refs. So what kind of job did we do? (it's a rhetorical question)
The league can/will/needs to have better refs, I know that, I/we accept the responsibility that goes with that and I look forward to that challenge. We hope to have a pool of better trained refs teams, looking at taking the resposibily of the refs away from the fields and finding 5-6 guys/gals who want to be head refs and have the time and ability to do it.
Got it and working on it
Again thanks for the input.
Tiger I am going to beat you with a stick if you bring up that hopper rule again!
Posted 23 July 2008 - 08:33 AM
Would it be reasonable to have the teams attending the SPPL ref? I know we on Strength and Honor would have been more then happy to ref a couple games this past SPPL in OR. Just have a seasoned core of 4-7 ref's who ref both days and have teams ref the rest. Maybe after the final registration deadling the week before the event have Jayson and his people lay down the schedule for the teams to ref and on which field. It is pretty primitive and will require some planning but I think you would get better results. This league is dependent on the players, we all want the league to succeed. Being ref's would force teams to learn the rules better. And I guarentee I will call a playing on if I see it. I think 99% of the players there would do the same. I think thats slightly higher then the current Ref's. I've heard it said, if you want something done right, do it yourself. I say this is the route the SPPL goes.
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Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:42 AM
If you want to make it interesting..........Krazy came up with an ingenious way to fix reffing and decisions on the field people were unhappy with..........however I think for that kind of money the SPPL can find willing people to ref and with a proper let's sit down and discuss the rules thoroughly meeting for 6 hours, because that's really how long it takes to sit down and absorb them!
You could always confuse the hell out of everyone and do what NASCAR did..........Actions Detrimental to the SPPL will result in penalties determined by the head ref and approved by the event coordinator. That will make you wonder whether to push the rules!
Posted 23 July 2008 - 10:45 AM
Posted 23 July 2008 - 11:30 AM
I would not mind one bit reffing at an event that my team was playing on, maybe the elite teams could ref the rookie division, or something like that. I constantly tell my teammates to be a "duck". Its our code word to just let it go. (ie the water just rolls off the ducks back, and does not stick to them and make them wet).
All Leagues have issues with reffing, just take a look at my homies Joy Division (I shoot only angels also). They wont even play in the NPPL anymore due to a game against dynasty where the reffing was non-existant. So they are playing in the millenium series.
One thing I see in the industry is the decline in the game itself, wether the economy is the major factor or just a contributing one. Speed ball is declining, however woodsball does not seem to be declining nearly as much.
On a side note, my Son (just turned 10 on Friday), played his first day of paintball on Saturday at Forestfire. He got two kills (one I helped him with by holding the end of his barrel). And he got shot in his forehead just above the mask, left a nasty welt. He cried in the middle of the field when it happened, I ran and gave him a big bear hug so he wouldnt get shot anymore, however he just told me today that he wants to wear more Camo next time. That made papa bear proud. Now I need to get some spec ops gear in his size for him.
Home Field: ForestFire Paintball
Web Address: www.forestfirepb.com
Posted 23 July 2008 - 12:05 PM
Weeks have past and it still weighs heavy on my mind. So it is time to vent.
So I attend the ‘06 Finals in Oklahoma with California Gridlock…again at the DDay field.
We play hard and get beat out of the finals.
Decide to stick around and watch.
We see some of the best plays ever from our sideline perch. Bunker runs, slides...a guy dancing with grenades!
But it is all ruined by the Smart Corps team. Their first year in the league and they want to show just how good they are…at cheating.
Here is the situation…A player is holed up in a building that has great shooting lanes on key movement routes to the swing base. This guys is holding down three SC players with his Tippmann! Patient, calm he just keeps them dug in. Finally there is a power move and he ducks from the incoming fire. Billy Gardner makes a break for it. Sprinting a full speed it looks like a great move! The Tippmann guy snap shoots for what ever reason and drills Billy square in the mask. WOW!
Gardner takes three more steps…sticks his gun through the wind and shoots the Tippmann player twice. Raises his hand calls hit and walks off.
WHAT!? Yes, the others around me saw it too.
Yes I know…long winded. And honestly this is not all of it…there is more. Personal stuff that goes directly after the character of people involved and quite honestly there is no need for that.
If you read all this, well you are devoted.
After the years of empty promises, poor reffing, and lots of fluff I will no longer be participating in the SPPL.
For those considering playing in the SPPL let me line some facts out for you.
Is the format fun? Yes. Otherwise I would not have continued playing this long.
Minimum play time…200 minutes. Maximum play time 300 minutes.
What the SPPL needs is a full time paid reffing staff. Dedicated former SPPL players that want to see this thing succeed.
I know there is not enough draw right now to merit this kind of cost…but without refs who care this will continue to spiral down. How do you find refs who care?
I read all of this and feel your pain! I've been to 3-4 SPPL events. XF's first event, one ref there made it a complete and absolute nightmare for us.
Only thing I can say is, we played this guys team the next year and bet 'em.
What the SPPL needs is a full time paid reffing staff. Dedicated former SPPL players that want to see this thing succeed.
AMEN TO THAT!
At least some refs that know the SPPL system inside and out. No fumbling their thumbs waiting on answers to the rules, or blank looks on their face when you know the rules better than they do. One thing I found to be a HUGE issue is hometown refs favoring
the home town teams. I know for a fact that went on at least one SPPL event.
the '06 Finals, I was there...I recall watching Smart Corps vs. Double Threat game. Good action!
I heard tons of comments about questionable actions taken by Smart Corps and over heard many people mention they witness
them cheating. I didn't see any of this with my own eyes, but it was the talk around the camps.
As for your long post, I could easily write a novel about the SPPL. Some good, some bad, some awful...
It's a good format, but in need of improvements.
I will say this, I've been playing for 20 plus years and the SPPL has been a great deal of fun. It really reminds me of the tournaments
of the late 80's early 90's and an element to it that paintball as been missing for a long time.
It needs to be better organized and more quality put into the product for it to be a better success.
My fingers are crossed that SPPL will improve.
I'm still undecided about attending the TN Qualifier, but if it's a possibility for me, I most likely will attend.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 01:13 PM
But, in the end, we do need refs because too many players cheat, and so we need good knowledgable refs. I thought our refs at IL SPPL tried very hard and didn't miss much. Could they have been better? Yeah, but they did fine, and what they missed the players, usually, caught. I know Failure To Flatline called some hits on themselves that cost them flag pulls when the ref didn't even see. At the same time, I shot a player in ghillie three times in the stomach as he ran and he didn't take the hit, and I had to get a ref involved. In the end, he said he didn't know he was hit, and I believe him, but we still had to have the ref make the call because I shot him, pulled the flag, then he shot me and pulled the flag. The ref made a decision and it stuck.
My team, the Heretics, have talked about reffing an SPPL regional, as a team. The difficulty is that there are only two games near us, and we need the points from both games. We aren't going to Tennessee, but the cost for us to drive to TN to ref the TN SPPL is just too much, though we would do the job for free. The cost of gas and food is prohibitive. Likewise, we can't show up to a game and have some of our guys ref while others play without having other teams calling foul. Until experienced players and teams can and will forego the points, we are stuck with what we have.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:38 PM
The sad thing is, and I hate to say it, but that isn't uncommon there.
My personal opinion is that SPPL should do something like what PSP does, ref certification classes, that in my mind would help out a lot. Also, it's not SPPL's fault that the refs are poor, it's the field, when you hire on friends of the owner and just about any body who wants to earn a case of paint (the pay for each ref per day reffing SPPL at Splat Action), then you are going to have problems.
Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:53 PM
Don't belive it could happen? It did, at the Illinois qualifier. Not the ref's fault either, that incident was waay down in the thick of it away from the main action.
Another one; player A sneaks up on an opposing player and 2 shots his pack, waiting to see if a hit is called. Player B calls himself out despie checking and knowing the shots bounced. Seeing as they're on the flank of player B's base, player B not only congratulates player A on a fine move, but walks an alternate route out so as not to give away player A's movement. No ref was needed. Again, this happend (and I beleive Spartan was player at the Illinois qualifier.
I could go on with the examples from CSPPL and other SPPL games as well. The point I'm making is the same one that Spartan made; Good, honorable teams don't need lots and lots of referees to watch them; they'll police themselves when needed.
Instead of bashing all the refereeing, why dont' we work as teams to improve our level of play to the league's motto of 'honor above all'. We won't need as many referees at that point in time and they won't be overtaxed like they are. Is this a realistic goal? I have no idea, but if we start the ball rolling that way, maybe it WILL continue that way. Will there always be cheaters out there? You got it, but if we as a league work to elevate our play above that, the cheaters will be that much easier to catch.
We have a good league here guys, let's do our part to help make it better, and work with the league to make it better.