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Military Sniper to Paintball Sniper Military snipers conforming to paintball snipers Rate Topic: -----

#31 Guest_Woodsball Freak_*

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 12:25 PM

View PostJellyfish, on Jul 21 2008, 07:40 AM, said:

Attachment Olen__13_.JPG

For those of you who think snipers are ONLY the magical mythical one shot one kill wonders. Here is a pic of how we rolled in Iraq. notic the lack of ghillies, the M4's the M203 grenade launchers, etc. GRanted, i'm not going to BS everyone and try to say we took the 50 with us every where. Just wanted everyone to see that we are not just meant for one long shot, but a small tactical team that can cause all kinds of chaos and mayhem. Most of all, the most important weapon we have in the field, isn't even in this picture. It's our RADIO!! Sending back real time informaiton to an infantry platoon, or calling in mortars, artillery, and my personal favorite the c-130 Spectre Gunship!

Besides, you ever tried to run abd break contact with a bolt action gun that only holds 5 rounds!! Good luck!!!

Man I love M4s...Well the Call Of Duty 4 version at least. :dry:
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#32 User is offline   fireman1979 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 02:17 PM

View PostJellyfish, on Jul 20 2008, 10:41 PM, said:

View PostWoodsball Freak, on Jul 20 2008, 03:30 PM, said:

Honestly in Paintball Sniping, ghillie isn't really even needed, if I sit still with BDUs in good cover, with the fast paced nature of paintball nobody will see me, and then you can get behind them easy.


I'm starting to get that feeling. From what I'ver read, just some decent camo,


Hi,
Ok, I'm not a sniper or even been in the army. But here in the Netherlands we have a paintballteam and we play in multicam. So I can recommend you multicam as a good option for your personal camo. At least, if you're playing in an wooded area with some grass and long vegetation.
here that will work just fine, considering we are the only team in the netherlands that uses the multicam :P
And I have got only some simple thing added to my paintballmarker.
It's a standard Tippmann 98 custom, with an 16"barrell, drop forward, m98 stock, HP, Remote, bipod, and an Gamo Rifle Scope 3-9x40. And thats a little bit for the looks,but it will help me also with detecting the enemy and for the precision shots.
Posted Image
Posted Image

And it's always great to see real snipers going into the paintballscene. Wish there were some in Holland.
You guys are doing a great job, everywhere and anytime. Respect!
And if you figure out some techniques that we can learn from,would be great ofcourse.

regards
Eric
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Posted 21 July 2008 - 06:30 PM

View PostJellyfish, on Jul 21 2008, 07:10 AM, said:

Again, thanks for the feedback. I'm looking for a woodsball crew in the houston area, but I'm not finding much. And you're right, I think longer scenarios would be far more advantageous to snipers, buit the run and dive in a bush sounds like a blast to.

You out there for CAX or stationed? Ever go climbing out at Joshua Tree? When I was at Pendleton we used to drive out there on our 96's and spend the entire time climbing and well, doing what we do. Then I got stuck out at Lejeune...bleh!!

Anyway, I can't remember the name of the super long, pain in the butt range out there (think it's range 500 or 400) but give it my regards and stay cool!!


Stationed.... 1st Tank Bn.... trying to get out of here via lat-move, though.

Haven't climbed out at Joshua Tree.... I might try it eventually, but I hate the desert with a passion, so I try to get out to LA or SD when I can. Range 500... We're bringing our tanks out there in like a month, to go qual for our gunnery. Thanks for the "cool" wishes.

Also... if you want to do everybody here a huge favor, and type up a bit of stuff about becoming a real sniper, and some of the simple stuff that you are able to share with us all... I think it'd be a pretty good read. (something for you to mull over)



....and it's nice to know that most of us look pretty much the same in country... here's me at an IP station.
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#34 User is offline   snipin'since88 

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Posted 21 July 2008 - 06:57 PM

View PostJOE MAC, on Jul 21 2008, 09:13 AM, said:

That depends on the weapon system. On the M24 we use a Leupold Mk 4 lr/t M3. On the M110 (which is our brand new semi auto sniper rifle. we just got them like 3 months ago) we use the Mk 4 lr/t M3 illuminated reticle. Both scopes are top notch and I highly recommend them.

Here's a picture of one: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...S_(US_Army).jpg

You can also see the M110 featured on 'Future Weapons" by looking up 'M110' on youtube.


thinking about mounting a mk 4 or one of those burris tactical scopes on my m1a

http://www.leupold.com/tactical/products/s...-illum-reticle/

http://www.burrisopt...cal1.html#3x12x

not trying to hijack, its just that a sniper i talked to in iraq said that the unertl is too expensive for what you get. he suggested these instead. i had a mk4 cqt over there and it never lost zero...
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#35 User is offline   Jellyfish 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 06:35 AM

I wanted to address something that keeps coming up on this thred. Being a Marine Sniper. I'd like to keep this on topic as much as possible regarding converting from military to paint ball sniper. I have no problem answering any questions anyone has regarding being a Marine Sniper, Sniper scopes, Sniper gear, and how we operate in the real world. I don't know if the moderators would mind a specific thread addressing Military Snipers specifically, but think some of this stuff needs to be under Joe Mac's "Ask a Sniper" thread. Also, for those of you who have asked, sent PMs, etc I have addressed the basic stalking trainning we use to train our new snipers under the Sniper Tactics/Sniper trainning thread. If you have specific questions about becoming a Marine Sniper or anything like that, drop a line under the "Ask a Sniper" thread and send me a PM, letting me know you did, and I'll respond asap. Again, I have no problems sharing my experience and explainning how one "becomes a Marine Sniper", so don't hesitate to ask.

stalking trainning http://forum.specialopspaintball.com/index...52424&st=15

Just wanted to touch on that real fast.

Now, back on topic.

Masks...

In the real world, we obvisouly aren't running around with masks on when we shoot (well unless there is a Chem or Bio threat) so my question is this. Can someone, give me a couple of tips on choosing a mask that works well, and why? I don't want to start some big debate on the best masks or anything. Just need some one to point me in the right direction. I forgot the name of the one I'm looking at getting, but it's about $35.00, has double lenses and claims to be "fog resistant". Also, I noticed they make mask fans?! Is this just more unnecessary crap gear, or worth the money?

Also, does anyone know the "ballistic coefficient" of a typical paint ball? I know this crazy as hell, but thought I'd ask. I'd like to use some ballistics software I have and see exactly what can be done with a paint ball, etc. (This is just out of curiousity and I'm not trying to take some crazy long shot, so don't bash me for asking)

Also, what size reticle is everyone finding to work for paintball. I'm looking at a small red dot, nothing fancy, and typically I'd go with the smalles reticle I can find, which right now seems to be 3 Minutes. Some are 4 Minutes and I've seen 5 Mins. Any suggestion? (Again, I don't want to get into some great debate over sites being needed or not, etc.)

Carrying Gear...

I used a chest rig (molle system) in the field most of the time, and not an actual vest like I see everyone using for paintball. I still have my old chest rig and most of my pouches, etc and would like to use them instead of buying new stuff. Would anyone who's used a chest rig, send me some feedback on using one for paintball, or would a vest be more applicable. I'm trying to figure out the best way to carry my HPA tank if I use a chest rig, as there is no decent way to attach it on the back. Typically I carried a rediculously oversized and obsenely heavy pack in the field, for water, etc. Obviously I wont be doing that in paintball (THANK GOD!!) So any tips on carrying gear would be greatly appreciated.
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#36 User is offline   D G 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:00 AM

Wow, a non-flaky pb sniper thread. Jellyfish, it'd be nice if you were in my area. I have no military experience and have not read any military sniper books. All my info is from many years of playing.

Bullet proof bushes?! I know in the real world, a bush is not going to stop a round. In paintball it will. Is it bad form to hid behind a bush? Or is it normal practice?
Bushes are your best friends. Use them for all to full advantage. No such thing as bad form here.

Does anyone operate in two man sniper teams? Cross lanes of fire? Early warning devices? Etc?
Two man teams are very good, but it’s hard to find an experienced partner. Crossing lanes is the way to go on the move and when static. Best best is to dynamically work off a regular team. Early warning devices are limited to your senses.

How are mil-snipers deploying themselves in the field in regards to short and long games/scenarios?
Static or dynamic? If you’re static, look for travel lanes you can overlook from good cover. That’s obvious. If you’re dynamic, travel where most players are too lazy to go, then get angles. In general, pb tends to be too dynamic for effective static sniping. I tend to move a whole lot. This is where your stalking craft will shine.

How good are the PB snipers vs Miil snipers at stalking and detecting snipers?
Poor, very poor. Your life does not depend on finding some guy who’s aiming at you, so concentrated detection is not done often. If you’re concealed right, the average player will walk upon you without a clue. Even the majority of guys who play the role of pb sniper are lacking.

Masks...
The only fans I’ve found to work well are JT, made for their Spectra line. I also happen to find those thermal goggles best for me. Factors are fit on face and ventilation. I don’t like outside noise and find the fan distracting. Only use it when absolutely needed. A sweat absorbing headband will do wonders for comfort and limiting fogging.

"ballistic coefficient" of a typical paint ball.
Check out MCarterBrown forums for that. There are some old school balers on there who may actually know and will have debates about it. In practice, after you shoot enough, you’ll get a feel for what can, what can not be done, and what can limits can be pushed under certain circumstances. You’ll find that different brands of paint under different weather conditions in different sized barrels work in different ways, no matter their actual clibur. If you go to byop fields, buy the best you can afford. At field paint only fields, you’re stuck with what they have. I simply don’t go to scenarios at fields that have crappy paint.

red dot
When I use one, I like a 40mm 2x power 5moa red dot. At pb distances, even the biggest size red dot won’t obscure your target. The 2x power gives it a useful image boost.

Carrying Gear...
For chest carry 100-rd pods are much more comfortable to move with than 140rd. If you have BlackHawk mag pouches, you’re set. Their expandable flaps are accommodating to pods. Many other real world mag pouches don’t fit pods just right. For a remote tank, consider a padded molle belt and mounting the tank horizontally. Think about your set-up. You may find it more practical to mount the HPA tank on the gun and use it as a stock, allowing for proper aiming with a mask, unlike the mil-sim stocks some players use. Hydration pack is a must for big games. No need to burden yourself with 3L, so go with something smaller. Also consider radio, id card, map pouches. If you use all those, you may actually be better with a mesh molle vest and a bunch of pouches. Not cheap, but may be best in the end. There’s also a good option for a molle belt with molle H-harness combined with a small hydration pack configuration. Many, many options. Take the time to sit down and actually lay out all the gear you carry with you on the field. Consider possible evolution of your gear and the ability of your existing rig to adopt to that.

I'm curious, what gun set-up do you have now and what gear do you take on the field with you? Are you into rec games or are you into scenarios/big games? That info will help with further advice.
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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:08 AM

hey jellyfish the proto switches are good and sold by this sight they dont fog because of the design and the fans are usefull if u play alot of woods where u cant take off yer mask but if u play more outlaw ex. backyard woods u dont need it because u can just ake off yer mask after the game (safely) im going to buy some jt proflexes because they breath great
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#38 User is offline   Marine Scout Sniper 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:56 AM

hmm attaching to the back??

You COULD try a MOLLE tank pouch and maybe using a Malice clip. It won't come off as Malice clips are the devil to get loose without a flat tipped device.

I have a pair of woodland digital suspenders and with the X pattern in the back I've thought of doing that with a certain type of MOLLE vest with no back.

I could maybe see that could work and you could still use the chest rig.

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#39 User is offline   Explosive 

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 02:56 PM

View PostD G, on Jul 22 2008, 11:00 AM, said:

Wow, a non-flaky pb sniper thread. All my info is from many years of playing.
TRUE and I've been playing since 1988 so wanted to add a bit. :angry:

Bullet proof bushes?! I know in the real world, a bush is not going to stop a round. In paintball it will. Is it bad form to hid behind a bush? Or is it normal practice?
Bushes are your best friends. Use them for all to full advantage. No such thing as bad form here.
Very true! (no such thing as bad form. There is bad form out there, but I know what you mean.

Does anyone operate in two man sniper teams? Cross lanes of fire? Early warning devices? Etc?
Two man teams are very good, but it’s hard to find an experienced partner. Crossing lanes is the way to go on the move and when static. Best best is to dynamically work off a regular team. Early warning devices are limited to your senses.
Two man teams are great! It's been years since I've played with another paintball player that has enough enthusiasm to dawn a ghillie and be sneaky along side of me, so usually it's alone I go into the woods. Working off a team gives you a stronger purpose on the field, especially if you can relay intell. Seems some of the teams I know, don't favor the sniper position. That's just been my experience and observations. Ah Early warning devices. Years and years ago I set up a couple. All fun and great. You seldom get them back and I've always found that while you're setting them up, an opponent stumbles along your offguard and a firefight begins. There's been times when the hair on my neck is standing up, because I know some opponents are behind me and if I had a tripwire set, I'd know for certain their location once tripped, but honestly to most paintballers, it's a hassle to set those things up & a one time use thing in most cases. PLUS most of the stipulations and field BS about trip wires has just made doing that unpopular from what I've seen.

How are mil-snipers deploying themselves in the field in regards to short and long games/scenarios?
Static or dynamic? If you’re static, look for travel lanes you can overlook from good cover. That’s obvious. If you’re dynamic, travel where most players are too lazy to go, then get angles. In general, pb tends to be too dynamic for effective static sniping. I tend to move a whole lot. This is where your stalking craft will shine. I chuckled at the line "travel where most players are too lazy to go"! You'll get no argument from me there. I'm just laughing at some of the spots I've gotten into and places I've nearly been stuck in. lol
**As for deploying onto the field. I've tried going out in normal camo, and dawning a ghillie on the field. A bit hectic, especially on smaller boundary fields. It's easier to put things on at your POV or campsite and just walk out to the field. Oh the looks, the stares, the comments...followed by their short term memory and you shooting them on the field.


How good are the PB snipers vs Miil snipers at stalking and detecting snipers?
Poor, very poor. Your life does not depend on finding some guy who’s aiming at you, so concentrated detection is not done often. If you’re concealed right, the average player will walk upon you without a clue. Even the majority of guys who play the role of pb sniper are lacking.
OH MAN, so TRUE!! It's amazing what you'll endure when your life is on the line. In paintball, there's a ton of slouching,
players on patrol with their barrels in the dirt. Some of the more serious players out there are usually always on their toes. I've notice when I get sloppy, or set my marker down for a break is usually when the oddest action takes place and normally I get eliminated for it. As for detecting, it's all based on personal experiences, or training. I saw a kid once, who hunted deer with his dad. He could see right through bushes and was incredible at spotting things.
I'd say most PB Snipers out there want to wear the ghillies, hide and take some shots. Some are serious enough to hone the skills of the trade.


Masks...
The only fans I’ve found to work well are JT, made for their Spectra line. I also happen to find those thermal goggles best for me. Factors are fit on face and ventilation. I don’t like outside noise and find the fan distracting. Only use it when absolutely needed. A sweat absorbing headband will do wonders for comfort and limiting fogging. I'm a huge fan of JT Spectras! I've owned Protos and Vents and when it was all said and done I always ended back with JT's. I've worn JT's in light rain, at night and under most day time conditions and rarely have any issues with them. They are comfortable and give you a good field of vision. They also don't hinder your hearing as much, like some other googles out on the market. This is my opinion and it's based on years of experience above and beyond your typical Sat/Sun rec ball games.

"ballistic coefficient" of a typical paint ball.
Check out MCarterBrown forums for that. There are some old school balers on there who may actually know and will have debates about it. In practice, after you shoot enough, you’ll get a feel for what can, what can not be done, and what can limits can be pushed under certain circumstances. You’ll find that different brands of paint under different weather conditions in different sized barrels work in different ways, no matter their actual clibur. If you go to byop fields, buy the best you can afford. At field paint only fields, you’re stuck with what they have. I simply don’t go to scenarios at fields that have crappy paint. It's true you can get a feel of a paintball's trajectory "lob shots". I've never looked into studies of actual ballistics of a paintballs etc etc. You just get that feeling for your shots (kentucky windage type deal) and then you can make an occasional surprising long shot. I hit a kid in the visor on his mask in the back corner of the field once (150ft probably, not exactly sure, but it was a long shot) I saw two kids go to the back corner of the field. I was up against a tree engaged with a opposing player 30 feet in front of me. When I saw the two kids trying to flank back there I snapped a couple shots at them to let them know I knew they were there. A few minutes later, one of the boys walked past me and complimented me on the shot I made while I was still trying to shot the player in front of me.

red dot
When I use one, I like a 40mm 2x power 5moa red dot. At pb distances, even the biggest size red dot won’t obscure your target. The 2x power gives it a useful image boost. I like 40mm's too. I think I have a 30mm now though. 2x power is useful for detecting, scanning. I don't tend to use magnification in my sights.

Carrying Gear...
For chest carry 100-rd pods are much more comfortable to move with than 140rd. If you have BlackHawk mag pouches, you’re set. Their expandable flaps are accommodating to pods. Many other real world mag pouches don’t fit pods just right. For a remote tank, consider a padded molle belt and mounting the tank horizontally. Think about your set-up. You may find it more practical to mount the HPA tank on the gun and use it as a stock, allowing for proper aiming with a mask, unlike the mil-sim stocks some players use. Hydration pack is a must for big games. No need to burden yourself with 3L, so go with something smaller. Also consider radio, id card, map pouches. If you use all those, you may actually be better with a mesh molle vest and a bunch of pouches. Not cheap, but may be best in the end. There’s also a good option for a molle belt with molle H-harness combined with a small hydration pack configuration. Many, many options. Take the time to sit down and actually lay out all the gear you carry with you on the field. Consider possible evolution of your gear and the ability of your existing rig to adopt to that. I once put an HPA tank in a camo Hydro pak w/o the bladder in it. It worked, but I didn't like the set up, so eventually I dropped the $$$ for gear specifically designed for Paintball. I've never had much luck converting military gear into paintball gear. Could just be me, but that's my two cents worth.

I'm curious, what gun set-up do you have now and what gear do you take on the field with you? Are you into rec games or are you into scenarios/big games? That info will help with further advice.



My comments are added above in this font color and style. Too much to edit - i type too much!!

This post has been edited by Explosive: 22 July 2008 - 03:27 PM

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 08:38 PM

Sorry about kind of going off topic with my previous post(s)..... but this might help you out with understanding more about paintball ballistics and things:


(it's a youtube video)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=NwN03gMASew




Paintballs go from 0-204MPH (300Feet/second) in the span of about 5 inches.... and since they're made of gelatin, they'll warp a bit. They're spherical, not conical like a bullet... so accuracy pretty much sucks.

...heavier paintballs will have more force behind them, since they'll go the same speed as lighter paintballs.... thus giving you a tiny bit more range than the average guy.





As far as masks go, I would recommend the JT ProFlex mask. You can find them for 50-60 bucks online, and are great if you want a really lightweight, fog-free mask. The bottom half of it will bend a bit, also, so that you can possibly put your cheek on a stock if you need to. They're very popular, and for good reason.
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#41 User is offline   Jellyfish 

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 06:59 AM

WOW! You guys ROCK! I'm learnig more and more each day and I appreciate everyones quick responses and direct aswers. I was afraid this was going to be on of those. Lets debate every little thing for two months and come up with no answers thread! Again, I truly appreciate all the info, and believe me, I'm taking notes.

I don't have time to comment on everyone's replys and posts right now, but I'll try to when I can.

As for gear I'm currently using...

Ion (stock, nothing fancy)
Pure Energy HPA on remote
JT Alpha camo mask
Noob cheap plastic hopper and a couple small 15 round home made hoppers.

That's it, and so far so good.

Again, I haven't really been able to play much as of yet, but I'm trying to hook up with a local team to get some real exp un my belt. Once I do, I'll send as much feedback as I can.
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#42 User is offline   Jellyfish 

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:11 AM

Ok, I know how this question is going to turn out already, but I'm asking it anyway...

Typical/Average engagement range?

I'm not asking how far can I shoot, i'm not asking about the furthest shot that has been made/seen.

I'm not asking about which barrel/gone to use.

I'm asking, what would most of you consider to be about the typical/average engagement distance?

I'm aware that this is not an "everytime" question. People walk right up on you, etc. I'm just looking for a decent range window.

I'm just asking, at about what distance are your typical engagements.

20-30 yards? 30-40 yards? etc...

Sorry, if I sound like a prick with my "I'm not ask..." lines above. I just know how fast things get off topic and become giant debates, etc. I don't mean any offense by it, so please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to keep my questions as specific as possible, to cut down on the redundant info in other threads.
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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:44 AM

for a sniper your best range to shoot (if not ambushing just longballing) about 50 to 60 yards but for a guaranteed hit closer to 100 feet there is a great dude named tyger who has a line of videos on youtube the ones for snipers are ambush tactics and stealth tactics
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#44 User is offline   Explosive 

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:55 AM

View PostJellyfish, on Jul 23 2008, 09:59 AM, said:

Again, I truly appreciate all the info, and believe me, I'm taking notes.

As for gear I'm currently using...

Ion (stock, nothing fancy)
Pure Energy HPA on remote
JT Alpha camo mask
Noob cheap plastic hopper and a couple small 15 round home made hoppers.

That's it, and so far so good.


I just want to say it's a relief to see your current gear list! You've kept it practical instead of going out and buying all this "sniper" paintball stuff.
Sure there's a great debate on what's worth using and what's nonsense. Of course it's all individual base.

Just read up, spend time with your gear, upgrade it as you see fit & check out everyone else's gear and set ups.

I want to add my two cents on gear.
ION: I completely rebuilt mine and should of bought in pieces instead of buying an ION and modding it. lol
After the mods I put into it, I actually enjoy shooting it more. I can give more details, if you'd like...
I have an ION "Blackcell'd" and will say it's a real nice, comfortable set up. it has a good tactical feel to it
and the Blackcell set up gives you the option to turn it into a "sniper" platform.
IF you decide to stay with the ION, research into some of the MUST have upgrades for it.

My absolute favorite and I'm not alone here with this opinion is my Tac One and of course I have a Spec Ops Qbow set up for it.
I've shot a lot, owned a lot of markers, sold them after awhile and this is one marker, I don't see myself parting ways with.
I have "sniped" with a standard Tac One set up without any issues and done quiet well with this marker. I have used this marker
in rec ball, airball, long scenario games, and many SPPL games without any issues. *ULE trigger kit is a must IMO!
The Longbow/Qbow set up for a Tac One is just icing on the cake and makes for one very nice "sniper" set up.

I've used burlap ghillie in paintball. Yes of course they are effective. Do I see myself ever using one again? I seriously doubt it.
Camo netting/Action Ghillie is sufficient in providing a level of effective camouflage when it comes to paintball. I base this on
ease of use & care, plus over all effectiveness. Now that would be a topic! A military sniper, accustomed to a burlap ghillie
trying out an Action Ghillie styled set up in the field (paintball game). Though somewhere out there it's probably been done. ??

:ghillie:
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#45 User is offline   Phobeus 

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:57 AM

I would never ever take a shot at 50 yards unless I'm screwing around and drawing attention. I think Jellyfish had a good idea about effective range. I like to stay about 30-35 yards and closer. That way you can be sure you can hit the player at the very least on the second shot if you're quick about it. Also it's just more fun to see how close you can get to an opponent.
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