Special Ops Paintball: Hopper Restrictions - Special Ops Paintball

Jump to content


  • (9 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • This topic is locked

Hopper Restrictions Rate Topic: ***-- 1 Votes

Poll: Hopper Restrictions (112 member(s) have cast votes)

Hoppers for 2008

  1. Leave the present hopper rules in place (53 votes [47.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.32%

  2. Lift the restrictions - any hopper is allowed (59 votes [52.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.68%

Vote

#31 Guest_MOATI_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:41 AM

View PostWrathOfTheGods, on Dec 29 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

And Moati, this may be a shock to you, but nobody on my team has a marker that we've spent more than maybe $250 on, The most expensive tank anyone has bought is $90, And the most expensive mask is mine at about $75. I also think it odd that you feel anyone who wants to use a faster hopper only wants to cheat and shoot more than the 15bps limit. So all of us that support removing it are now wanting to shoot too fast? Thanks.


You should read my post again. I didn't say that everyone that wanted the rule lifted was trying to cheat. I said the only legit reason for wanting to use a different loader would be to shoot faster because IMO no other reason holds water.

And regardless of what you and your team has spent on gear, I still find it very hard to believe that the "expense" of a lower end loader that fits the current requirement is a valid reason for anyone to choose not to play in the league. You and your team did it...many others have as well. It's an awfully small hurdle for any team that is serious enough about the game to be considering competition.
0

#32 User is offline   Mighty Mike 

  • The Aggorilla is watching you!
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2,538
  • Joined: 17-June 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Visalia California
  • Brigade Name:MightyMike0

Posted 30 December 2007 - 01:20 AM

i say keep the restrictions. it really isn't too hard to get a lower end hopper than you already own.
0

#33 User is offline   WardenWolf 

  • Aspie Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 6,553
  • Joined: 29-September 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Phoenix, AZ
  • Brigade Name:WardenWolf

Posted 30 December 2007 - 02:17 AM

Keep them. Frankly, it's too difficult to monitor a marker on the field. And with electronic markers become more and more prevalent, the opportunity to cheat increases dramatically. I see no reason to allow them to use any hopper that is faster than the legal limit. People spend hundreds of dollars on their equipment, and hundreds of dollars on SPPL travel and event entry, and they can't afford a $60 or $30 15 BPS hopper that will serve as a good backup for the rest of the year? Given that 15 BPS is the fastest anyone is allowed to shoot at any regulation field, there really is no reason to complain if you're "forced" to buy a cheap hopper that you can use as a backup if your regular hopper goes down.

The vast majority of people who are going to spend all that money and travel all that distance to compete are going to have entire spare GUNS. Most that don't will at least have spare PARTS, like a backup hopper, spare elbows, and anything else that would make it very difficult or impossible to play if it broke. What I'm saying is, most people are going to have these things anyway. Is it that much to ask that ONE of them be 15-bps compliant? No, not at all. One rock-solid rule of paintball: if something hasn't already broken in your gearkit, it will. And if you aren't prepared for that, you're not going to make it to the finals because somewhere along the line, in the dozen or so games, something is going to break. If it's something critical like your only hopper or gun, and you don't have a replacement, you're done. It is absolutely foolhardy to go out there with only one of a critical piece of equipment. You're risking throwing hundreds of dollars of both yours and your teammates' money down the drain to save $60.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 30 December 2007 - 02:29 AM


Kanye: "Yo, Chile, I'm gonna let you finish shakin', but I just got to say Haiti had one of the best earthquakes of all time!"
Save a tree: wipe your ass with a hippie!
0

#34 User is offline   Traakon 

  • I came I saw, I ...wait...what was the question?
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 498
  • Joined: 08-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chandler, Az
  • Brigade Name:Traakon

Posted 30 December 2007 - 08:13 AM

View PostMOATI, on Dec 30 2007, 12:41 AM, said:

You should read my post again. I didn't say that everyone that wanted the rule lifted was trying to cheat. I said the only legit reason for wanting to use a different loader would be to shoot faster because IMO no other reason holds water.


I will say it. Perhaps not intending to cheat start to finish but surely wanting to have the freedom to.

I have yet to see anyone who is in favor of lifting the rule justify their position in any fashion that disputes the unspoken fact that they actually just want to have the capability to exceed the ROF. The whining about cost when taken in the context of the SPPL, a National Event League, is laughable. The discussion of making it a paint quantity issuance matter doesn’t address the question posed and only creates more issues with policing.

In my experience as a REF and League Official with players in local events and our local league play, the ONLY REAL reason players try and justify such positions is to “have the ability” to cheat. They may not in actuality use that ability, but they want it just in case they find themselves in over their heads. I have had this “discussion” face to face with players trying to justify their reason for my finding their equipment not in compliance with the rules and I have yet to receive a viable argument.

Here is the opportunity to present such a viable argument for lifting the rule and as yet, we have not one.

Hey Warden Wolf...you need to get some sleep man :rolleyes:
Death is just a passage...so bring more paint!!!
0

#35 User is offline   toxic t0ast 

  • If I cant dance, I dont want to be apart of your revolution.
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Retired/Inactive Moderator
  • Posts: 5,460
  • Joined: 22-November 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pensacola, Florida
  • Brigade Name:french t0ast

Posted 30 December 2007 - 08:29 AM

Pros of lifting the hopper rule:
Wont have to buy a new hopper


Cons:
More Refs
new cronos
More time spent not on the field becuase your being checked.


Lets see..The 50ish dollars you spend on a new hopper is far out weighted buy all the money that the SPPL has to spend to get all the new stuff.
And that could I guess make the prices come up for the entry.

Is all that right? for both sides?

This post has been edited by french t0ast: 30 December 2007 - 08:29 AM

<div align="center"><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><!--coloro:#000000--><span style="color:#000000"><!--/coloro-->Representing the Hate five oh! (850-Ska-core)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec--></div>
<div align="center"><a href="http://www.myspace.com/thespanx" target="_blank">The Spanx (Our folk/indie band)</a></div>
<div align="center"></div>
0

#36 User is offline   Danger Dan 

  • Team Desert Edge
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 875
  • Joined: 26-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Utah
  • Brigade Name:Danger Dan

Posted 30 December 2007 - 09:44 AM

I like the rule. It makes it easy for me to feel good when I look across the field and the other team has a hopper that caps at the same bps as my hopper. I love to compete, and win or loose I want to know that I was on a "level playing field" with who I was competing with. If I have to buy a new hopper I will. If that hopper cost me$10 or $100 I will get it. If that small investment means that I have helped make it a bit easier for the reffing staff to keep their mind on more important things like wiping and game format rules then I feel that was money well spent.
0

#37 User is offline   Traakon 

  • I came I saw, I ...wait...what was the question?
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 498
  • Joined: 08-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chandler, Az
  • Brigade Name:Traakon

Posted 30 December 2007 - 09:51 AM

Well put Dan.
Death is just a passage...so bring more paint!!!
0

#38 User is offline   ThirdI 

  • Elite Weekend 2007 Sportsmanship Winner and 2008 Instructor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 887
  • Joined: 10-October 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Spokane, WA
  • Brigade Name:ThirdI

Posted 30 December 2007 - 10:44 AM

I really don't like the fact that people are making it sound like everyone who voted to lift the hopper restriction wants the ability to cheat. Some of us shoot markers that are entirely capable of limiting ROF themselves, which fixes the 15bps issue for us. Even Tadao'd BlackCell Ions with Q-Loaders can set that limit (as well as stock Ions). However, any loader that is rated at 15 bps is not actually going to feed that fast or consistently. I have an old Ricochet AK that's rated at 12bps but that just means it normally feeds at 5 or 6 with a random spike to 12.

I have no wish to cheat but I DO want to have a reliable loader that feeds as fast as regulations allow. Funny thing is, I'm not even a "paint sprayer". I went through a hopper and 7 pods all of Elite Weekend if that tells you how little I shoot.

This post has been edited by ThirdI: 30 December 2007 - 10:45 AM

0

#39 User is offline   Sandman 5150 

  • Forum Newbie
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 22
  • Joined: 03-July 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Murrieta,CA

Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:04 AM

I DON'T CHEAT!!!!!

However, I am in favor of dropping the hopper restrictions. So, according to all you FILTER DODGE that makes me a cheater. Get real. Our team GRIDLOCK DOES NOT CHEAT.

Most of us use high end markers ( Ego's, Dm, Shockers etc.) all of which can be limited or capped at 15bps. That should be the only restriction, that if you want to use any hopper you want, that you have to be able to cap your marker at 15 bps.

I know for a fact, that all you who use A-5, that you can put upgrade boards and tweak the loader system to shoot much faster than 15bps. How do i know, i have done it, I have gotten that marker up to a legit 20 bps.

The other thing is the quality and reliability of a high end hopper verses a low end hopper, which is not consistent or usually of high quality.

Our team currently uses Spyder Fasta (9v) and we have been pretty happy with them. However, when I cap my Ego SL74 at 15bps and use this hopper, which is rated at 15 bps. I still get plenty of ball jams and that sucks for a guy that hurls paint for his team.

By the way Third I, I shot approx 8 cases at the Elite Weekend :P

I guess that's why you Won the SPORTSMANSHIP AWARD and I Won The MVP :laugh:

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 30 December 2007 - 12:13 PM
Reason for edit: Filter Dodge - Warning Issued

0

#40 User is offline   Danger Dan 

  • Team Desert Edge
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 875
  • Joined: 26-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Utah
  • Brigade Name:Danger Dan

Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:22 AM

I'm sure I'm in the minority but for me I don't suspect that some one else is cheating. I just want to know that it is all even. Like stock car racing. Well ok so like the idea of stock car racing. I really don't care if it get lifted or not. I have hoppers that fit both ends and I'm fine either way. Like I stated earlier I just like looking across the field and knowing that everything is even on both sides and the refs are free to do other things that really will effect the outcome of the game.

Restricted hoppers or not we will be there and play our best.
0

#41 User is offline   Traakon 

  • I came I saw, I ...wait...what was the question?
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 498
  • Joined: 08-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chandler, Az
  • Brigade Name:Traakon

Posted 30 December 2007 - 11:55 AM

The same arguments for “our electronics can be capped so we are legal like everyone” were presented in the other leagues and OMG, people were found with cheat programs in their electronics. If the ethics of some players met their techno-wizardry this might not be an issue in any league.

My position comes from hundreds of hours Refing and officiating games of all types and the hones always being put on the officials to run a clean game when it is the players who are the ones playing “Catch me if you can”. This is nearly impossible when the cheat is buried in a series of “010101” bits in a program written to be invisible unless you have the secret key to unlock its value. Anything that makes it more difficult for the officials to properly do their job and assure parity and fair play is a bad change.

I will admit there is validity to the point of having a piece of gear, that in effect is rated above the max thus it operates more consistently at the max then one that must peak at the max rate. Unfortunately in a rule base setting of standards, this doesn’t matter. So you love to shoot your EGO or DM7 or what ever it is but that isn’t the best tool to be competitive under the rules. Why should the rules be changed to fit your “preference”? If an A-5 is the best tool to be competitive under the rules and you choose not to use the best tool that’s no need for a rule change. I don’t know if the A-5 is or isn’t, its an example of how self imposed limitations are not justifications for changing the rules.

If you want to compete in the SPPL or any other league, you either do so under the rules or do something else. Competing is a choice, if you choose not to meet the rules; you basically are choosing not to participate.
Death is just a passage...so bring more paint!!!
0

#42 User is offline   Danger Dan 

  • Team Desert Edge
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 875
  • Joined: 26-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Utah
  • Brigade Name:Danger Dan

Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:13 PM

I think those that really want the rule changed is not for a cheating reason just probably due to the fact that they have experienced something better and want to use it. I trust all the teams I played in the SPPL in 2007 and Im sure I will in 2008. I just don't think that the speed of a hopper will effect the outcome of a game. I do feel that game format and wiping will. I for one would rather spend our efforts on that.
0

#43 User is offline   WardenWolf 

  • Aspie Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 6,553
  • Joined: 29-September 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Phoenix, AZ
  • Brigade Name:WardenWolf

Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:18 PM

View PostThirdI, on Dec 30 2007, 10:44 AM, said:

I really don't like the fact that people are making it sound like everyone who voted to lift the hopper restriction wants the ability to cheat. Some of us shoot markers that are entirely capable of limiting ROF themselves, which fixes the 15bps issue for us. Even Tadao'd BlackCell Ions with Q-Loaders can set that limit (as well as stock Ions). However, any loader that is rated at 15 bps is not actually going to feed that fast or consistently. I have an old Ricochet AK that's rated at 12bps but that just means it normally feeds at 5 or 6 with a random spike to 12.

I have no wish to cheat but I DO want to have a reliable loader that feeds as fast as regulations allow. Funny thing is, I'm not even a "paint sprayer". I went through a hopper and 7 pods all of Elite Weekend if that tells you how little I shoot.


And given that the tourney locks are usually INSIDE the marker (if it has one at all), are you going to expect them to inspect every single marker to ensure it's set to 15 BPS, and then open the grip to ensure the tourney lock is in place (and recognize the tourney lock on all the literally hundreds of electronic markers in play)? And ensure nobody is using any aftermarket boards in their guns that might not have an interior lock? No. That's NOT going to happen.

Kanye: "Yo, Chile, I'm gonna let you finish shakin', but I just got to say Haiti had one of the best earthquakes of all time!"
Save a tree: wipe your ass with a hippie!
0

#44 User is offline   Traakon 

  • I came I saw, I ...wait...what was the question?
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 498
  • Joined: 08-January 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Chandler, Az
  • Brigade Name:Traakon

Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:27 PM

Danger Dan - I agree, those two issues have a greater effect than feed rate but given that, why change something that isn't currently an issue? I haven't been privileged as yet to Ref an SPPL event (though I would love to) so I don't know how big an issue wiping is there but in the end, thats back to the ethics of the players.

WardenWolf - Your spot on. When the events become so complicated that the "tech inspection and verifications" start to equal the event length the event is lost.

post script
The best and most even event I ever participated in was a "No Battery" event. You could use any marker/hopper you wanted so long as it didn't require a battery. There was 1 A-5 RT at the event and that was fairly easy to monitor.

This post has been edited by Traakon: 30 December 2007 - 12:32 PM

Death is just a passage...so bring more paint!!!
0

#45 User is offline   Danger Dan 

  • Team Desert Edge
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 875
  • Joined: 26-February 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Utah
  • Brigade Name:Danger Dan

Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:36 PM

I dont think wiping is a BIG issue and the refs have been really good at keeping an eye out for it. I just don't want to create a situation that thins them out even more.
0

Share this topic:


  • (9 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Last »
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • This topic is locked

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users