Special Ops Paintball: Hopper Restrictions - Special Ops Paintball

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Hopper Restrictions Rate Topic: ***-- 1 Votes

Poll: Hopper Restrictions (112 member(s) have cast votes)

Hoppers for 2008

  1. Leave the present hopper rules in place (53 votes [47.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.32%

  2. Lift the restrictions - any hopper is allowed (59 votes [52.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.68%

Vote

#16 User is offline   T - Bone 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 10:16 AM

View PostStang, on Dec 29 2007, 06:16 AM, said:

I say get the sonar/radar/x-ray goggles/ultra violet heat intensifying telescopic hearing aids necessary to help make sure 15 BPS is a sustained cap, and let us use our Hoppers.

Now THAT was funny.

I used to think restricting what hopper was used was bull, but my thoughts have changed in the past year. Managing velocity is hard enough, but to add rate of fire to it would really distrct from the superior reffing we already enjoy IMO.

There were times when some refs would chrono each player every single time they entered the elimination zone at some games I played. I hated that, not that I was changing the velocity, but because it was a HUGE pain. To enforce <15 bps by metering shots in the game would be even more annoying as a chrono after each kill. Restricting the hopper allows the reffs to focus on the more important game elements. I think restricting hopper use has been a simple solution to keep things as equal as possible for all players.

Really I'm just looking at this from a reffing perspective.

This post has been edited by T - Bone: 29 December 2007 - 10:29 AM

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 11:41 AM

Keep the hopper rule. Sppl has a hard enough time fielding refs as it is than to have a ref on each field shooting radar all day. Spend that money on better prize packages. In fact the sppl is trying to free up the flag station refs too, so they can keep better focus on the game.
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#18 User is offline   8-Ball 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 11:48 AM

T-Bone has it right.

It amazes me how many of the "lift the rule" votes are coming from people who haven't even participated yet in an SPPL event. And for anyone who lets something as silly as a cheap ol hopper keep them out of this format of play is just that ... silly.

So here's the skinny on the whole hopper rule, from one of the most experienced SPPL players in this league. (4 qualifiers and 3 National Finals) plus I knew of, and was priviledged enugh to discuss some of the formation of this format before it was even announced publicly.

The hopper rule was implemented because it completely enforces itself. It was the only way players were going to "calm the nerves" of the "Strictly leave the SPPL Mech." crowd that electros could compete and not have ANYONE (refs, players or the staff) worry about the use of cheater boards in the SPPL. AND IT WORKS! In the two years electros have been allowed in the SPPL not ONE player has been ejected or incurred an "Illegal device" penalty for using a cheater board or exceeding the 15 BPS cap.

The SPPL & its hopper rule has worked so well, showing that Mech's & Electros can compete at a high level while maintaining an even higher level of Sportsmanship that not only have players adjusted easily to the limited play. The Industry itself has taken notice and now is producing quality products targeted to this play style. Tippmann with their SL200 hopper (Does every bit of 13 BPS), Spyder and their 9v Fasta is another quality SPPL legal hopper that works flawlessly, and now Smart Parts has just come out with their SP-1 (electro marker) which itself is capped to be SPPL legal. Heck Smart Corps WON the National SPPL Championship using this new marker, so why the need to change something that works and is changing the face of our sport.

Sure the league could spend huge bundles of money to get PAC Chronos (3-4 on each feld)...who do you think will be picking up those costs eventually? Hmmm? I thought one goal for growth in this league is to keep it affordable? So why spend all that money, which will eventually have to be paid by players, when we already have something that works...well.

Obviously it works too well. As I've said, the league has not had one incident with a cheater board.
What WILL happen if the league does drop the hopper rule, even with one PAC chrono per player on the field? Even if the league limits it to semi only as an attempt to help limit the use of cheater boards exceeding the 15 BPS cap?Someone WILL try to cheat the system. Haven't we learned anything from the NPPL and PSP? "So they'll get caught by the PAC chrono..." Yea, and then something that hasn't happened in EVER in this league will take place. A ref will stop play (an interferrence in the flow of the game we love) will check a player (or pull him) even though he de-activated his cheat mode already and FUN will be lost, right or wrong. Isn't the game fun with the current hopper rule in place? Isn't the hopper rule oneof the BIGGEST reasons this league has been tripling in growth over each of its last two years?

If you want to enjoy some of the funnest, most intense, and most HONORABLE paintball around you are going to HAVE to purchase a player card, practice, pay for entry & paint...and you if you shoot an electro, have an SPPL legal hopper.

What? you don't want to buy a hopper you ONLY use once or twice a year? horsepucky! What, you're not going to PRACTICE? Shouldn't you be using the gear you're going to play with in practice as well. Heck, I play exclusively with my 9v Fasta. I have an 18v...I keep it as a spare to lend out to other players at scenario games...I just have no need to shoot over 15 BPS. Who does?
And if your SPPL hopper does end up being your "extra hopper" so what? now you have a back up, or spare to lend to another...that relates to another part of this league...Sportsmanship. :(

Lifting the rule has several negatives:

1) adds expense to the league, something that typically hinders growth. Since ultimately those costs will get handed down to us, the consumer.

2) creates a "loophole" whereby the bad element of our sport have a chance to creep in, which up to now is almost non-existent in this league. I am convinced that lifting this rule will not only draw huge groves of this type of player, it WILL NOT draw as many "new honest" players as we see claimed by those claiming "yea, a new cheaper hopper is what keeps me from playing." For many, this claim is a cop out, and for those who do show up, they will be quickly turned off by the droves who come to "take advantage" of the "Any hopper rule"...and they will come, I assure you...right now the hopper rule is probably the only thing KEEPING them in the PSP & NPPL.

3) Going to the PAC chronos & Radars to police the 15 BPS cap will create interuptions to the flow of the game when refs have to check and/or pull players using cheater boards, which also up to now DOESN'T occure in this league.


Want to know something else. I find games I play in where most everybody is shooting at or under 15 BPS are the most fun games I attend. Why? because there are few, if any, overshooting problems and therefor EVERYBODY has a good time. THAT is the No.1 reason I see in keeping the hopper rule.

My Grandaddy alwas told me; "Son, if it aint broke, don't fix it." :)

Thank you for your time

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#19 User is offline   toxic t0ast 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 12:32 PM

View Post8-Ball, on Dec 29 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

T-Bone has it right.

It amazes me how many of the "lift the rule" votes are coming from people who haven't even participated yet in an SPPL event. And for anyone who lets something as silly as a cheap ol hopper keep them out of this format of play is just that ... silly.

I guess you got me there :\

I say get ride of hoppers. make everyone play with a SC feed, that will make it easy :]
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#20 User is offline   8-Ball 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 01:25 PM

View Postfrench t0ast, on Dec 29 2007, 01:32 PM, said:

View Post8-Ball, on Dec 29 2007, 12:48 PM, said:

T-Bone has it right.

It amazes me how many of the "lift the rule" votes are coming from people who haven't even participated yet in an SPPL event. And for anyone who lets something as silly as a cheap ol hopper keep them out of this format of play is just that ... silly.

I guess you got me there :\

I say get ride of hoppers. make everyone play with a SC feed, that will make it easy :]


You know though t0ast you have a good point there...

The hopper rule does for electros in the SPPL, what SC does for pump. It helps keep the game "clean" without all that unneccessary policing.

Anyone who plays pump knows, SC games are usually just a lil bit more fun than "unlimited" pump games.

The hopper rule still lets EVERYONE shoot a fair amount of paint (for those who like that style of play) yet keeps it fair enough that even pump teams (like the Irregulators did in Oregon) compete without worries of someone taking advantage of current technology.

I know how you play t0ast, and I know you may be silly, but you're no cop out or scaredy cat. I'll run with you anyday Bro. B)

This post has been edited by 8-Ball: 29 December 2007 - 05:12 PM


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#21 User is offline   toxic t0ast 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 01:32 PM

Thanks man :]
That makes me fell all warm and fuzzy lol.
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#22 User is offline   WrathOfTheGods 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 05:19 PM

Buying a hopper for SPPL isn't going to break my bank. And funny that you should say that if you can't afford a new hopper you shouldn't play SPPL or even paintball, thats the way to get people wanting to play don't ya think? My thing is, I play with this hopper on this marker with this tank, Its not a major deal, but it is a pain to have to get use to the feel of a new hopper. I am in favor of the hopper lift due to the fact that you don't have to go buy a new hopper if you don't already have one. But you get to continue using the gear you use when you play any other time. And I have played in the Utah event, so Sorry I don't fit in the category of people posting who haven't participated. But I don't think most people are aware that you can get 12v revvy's with the w.a.s board in them that feed about 20bps. They are hard to spot due to them having a normal outwards appearance. I think you people forget that some teams, yes, even in the SPPL are out there to win at all cost and cast the illusion of sportsmanship while doing it. So why not let the SPPL spend a little bit more money, maybe even ask for a LITTLE bit more on the team regs, and purchase the required equipment to monitor this? Let people use the gear they are comfortable with, and all have a good time. Honestly my biggest concern isn't the ROF it is wiping. I understand it is a little harder on refs due to the number available, but things need to be done to get more as it is. I don't mean to rant, but some of the things said in this thread do steam me a little bit. I understand that the current hopper rules regulate this but there are ways around it, and I believe its already been done, and if so where does it go from there?
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#23 User is offline   BAGELS 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 05:32 PM

So you can't even use q-loaders with the existing rule?

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#24 User is offline   8-Ball 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 06:44 PM

View PostWrathOfTheGods, on Dec 29 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

Buying a hopper for SPPL isn't going to break my bank. And funny that you should say that if you can't afford a new hopper you shouldn't play SPPL or even paintball, thats the way to get people wanting to play don't ya think?


I request you reread my post carefully, you are misquoting or misunderstanding what i said terribly. What I said was, don't let the hopper rule KEEP you from playing this format. Big difference from what you think I was saying. Anyone who can afford to play in the SPPL can afford a hopper, please, it's not like the league is saying you need to spend $200 on a hopper to be "legal".



View PostWrathOfTheGods, on Dec 29 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

My thing is, I play with this hopper on this marker with this tank, Its not a major deal, but it is a pain to have to get use to the feel of a new hopper.

...And I have played in the Utah event,...


A "pain"??? If you say so, but I've never noticed a huge difference, or had any "pains" adjusting to what sat atop my gun. Heck I find it fun playing with new or different gear on occassion. I use different guns, hoppers & tanks all the time, from pumps, to my Shocker to my heavy "milsim" WS66...and don't see the big deal in using a different hopper...as far as my ability or performance on the field goes. I change gear to fit the situation at hand. IE. the field, or type of game, etc.

The only hopper that I can tell takes real adjusting to is the Egg, because it has a totally different balance point than any other hopper.

Each their own I guess, some people might be less adaptable I guess.


View PostWrathOfTheGods, on Dec 29 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

I am in favor of the hopper lift due to the fact that you don't have to go buy a new hopper if you don't already have one. But you get to continue using the gear you use when you play any other time. And I have played in the Utah event, so Sorry I don't fit in the category of people posting who haven't participated.


If you buy a hopper that is SPPL legal for your electro, and use it for the rest of your play won't you be just as "use to it" eventually?

So if you competed in Utah you used a hopper that was legal, right? How did you do in the Qualifier? Did you enjoy your experience enough to want to play again and be competitive?

Is it worth the cost of returning even thogh you have to buy a player card now?
Was your experience enjoyable enough to warrant the cost of a new SPPL legal hopper, if you don't have one from competing in Utah? (usually cheaper than those hoppers that feed OVER 15 BPS.)

And as far as "fitting a catergory", again, I said:

Quote

It amazes me how many of the "lift the rule" votes are coming from people who haven't even participated yet in an SPPL event.

"Many" meaning MOST not ALL. A quick count of the posts above my original post in this thread will prove me correct on my accusation too.


View PostWrathOfTheGods, on Dec 29 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

But I don't think most people are aware that you can get 12v revvy's with the w.a.s board in them that feed about 20bps. They are hard to spot due to them having a normal outwards appearance. I think you people forget that some teams, yes, even in the SPPL are out there to win at all cost and cast the illusion of sportsmanship while doing it. So why not let the SPPL spend a little bit more money, maybe even ask for a LITTLE bit more on the team regs, and purchase the required equipment to monitor this? Let people use the gear they are comfortable with, and all have a good time. Honestly my biggest concern isn't the ROF it is wiping. I understand it is a little harder on refs due to the number available, but things need to be done to get more as it is. I don't mean to rant, but some of the things said in this thread do steam me a little bit. I understand that the current hopper rules regulate this but there are ways around it, and I believe its already been done, and if so where does it go from there?


I don't know if "most people" are aware of it, but I know I am aware of the revvy mod. as well of the fact that the Fasta 9v & 18v are EXACTLY the same body. You can only tell which hopper a player has by opening the battery case and looking inside. So yes, there are minor loopholes in the hopper rule, there are in any rule. But the difference between cheating with a hopper and cheating with a cheater board is the same as someone having a mech that can fire in excess of 15 BPS and someone using a cheater board. and here's why...

1) The reason Rory (the first Commisioner of the SPPL) allowed mech's to use any hopper they wanted was because if someone had a mech that exceeded the cap there was no way the player could "turn off" the high rate of fire if/when a ref asked to check it. They could get caught. e-gripped Tippmann's were allowed to still use any hopper becuse a) there weren't many upgraded Tippies that could fire that fast consistently and cleanly, and :D it left just a few guns that refs had to be on the watch for.

2) The hopper rule put electros now on that same "playing field" because there was no way for someone to "get away" with using a cheater board and avoiding their just penalty. Why? because for them to do so would mean they would have to use a modded or illegal hopper and even if they turned off their cheat mode, the hopper would be easy to detect upon inspection.

And as I said earlier, the problem with lifting the rule and policing the BPS with radars and chronos is just that...The Policing, the interruption of the game because even if there are minor flaws in the current rule (And I don't believe there really is any) There are very apparent huge flaws in lifting the hopper rule and allowing any hopper on any gun. And again I point to other league's headaches as solid proof of this.

We don't have ANY of the headaches the other leagues do, why? in big part because the league promotes Sportsmanship heavily, and also in part because the hopper rule has practically eliminated the type of element that creates those headaches.

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#25 User is offline   Buckfrenzy 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 06:58 PM

I voted lift the rule for one reason. None of our guys have hoppers that fit the restrictions, so finding them/buying them was a pain in the butt.

I also think teams would quickly learn to slow down their guns if the hopper restriction rule was lifted. There were many games in our qualifier and the finals where I was on the field for 30-45 minutes at a time. If a player cannot manage their paint consumption, they will end up eliminating themselves by running out of paint. I know for a fact there were plenty of Tippmann markers shooting well over 15bps at both events I played at last year, and you would usually be able to outlast those guys because they would shoot themselves low on paint, and be forced to change their style of play.

I was able to shoot a pretty consistent 15bps with my empire revy during the finals, which killed me in the first few games. My hopper I used at the qualifier was much slower, and was honestly the better choice of a hopper to use in an SPPL game.


In summation, let the guys who want to waste paint shooting my bunker do just that. If they can't consciously control their paint consumption it is their fault.

I didn't get into the overshooting/other problems, because I honestly don't see the guys I played against in the SPPL doing that crap no matter what gun/hopper combo they are using.
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#26 User is offline   paintball valley 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 07:03 PM

View PostBAGELS, on Dec 29 2007, 07:32 PM, said:

So you can't even use q-loaders with the existing rule?


not on an electro marker... currently force feed hoppers are only allowed on mechanical markers.
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#27 User is offline   Killa Daddy of Two 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 09:18 PM

Thats why I say.... limit the paint consumption, by limiting the amount of paint issued per team. If 1 or 2 gunners want to shoot up most of the Team's paint, while the rest use PUMPs.. Why not? If everyone "collectively" has to be aware of available paint, then they will intentionally lay off of the heavy triggers, otherwise run out, and be eliminated.

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#28 User is offline   Lomarandil 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 09:35 PM

View Postpaintball valley, on Dec 29 2007, 07:03 PM, said:

View PostBAGELS, on Dec 29 2007, 07:32 PM, said:

So you can't even use q-loaders with the existing rule?


not on an electro marker... currently force feed hoppers are only allowed on mechanical markers.


Not true, Qloaders were allowed on electro markers, but that is another ball of wax. For now, just know Qloaders are an exception to the rule (for reasons explained elsewhere)

8-Ball. I have agreed with every word you have said so far. Band of Brothers votes to keep the hopper rules as they are.

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 10:33 PM

I feel it's absurd to even consider lifting the hopper rule. IMHO, the only "true" reason for not wanting the hopper rule in effect is to be able to shoot more than 15bps. Since that rule certainly isn't being lifted, that leaves no legit reason to lift the hopper rule. I'm sorry, but the whole "I don't wanna have to buy a loader just for the SPPL" argument just doesn't hold water with me. If I'm gonna pay $500-1000 for a gun, $90 on a mask, $200 on a tank, $300 on additional clothing and packs/vests, $50 for my share of reg, conservatively $100 for travel, lodging, and food, $30 for a player card, $150 or more on paint (that totals $1420 on the low end) how in the world can I expect anyone to take me seriously if I say "What do you mean I have to spend $30-40 on a loader...no way, I'm not playing that league". And this $30-40 loader simply guarantees that I will be in compliance with the 15bps rule.

The only thing that lifting the rule guarantees is more work for a stretched reffing crew as it is. The other thing that it opens the door for is for some tems that have abstained from the SPPL to come along thinking they can find a way around our rules.

Keep the rule as it is.
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#30 User is offline   WrathOfTheGods 

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 11:37 PM

8-ball i'm sorry you feel that I targeted you, which isn't true. I never said that you had said ALL of the people waiting to lift the rule never played, I had only stated that I don't fit in with that category. Yes its fun to use new gear when playing for fun, but is nice to play with what you are familiar with when competing.

If you buy a hopper that is SPPL legal for your electro, and use it for the rest of your play won't you be just as "use to it" eventually?

Why would I? I have a nice one now.

And Yes I did have a legal hopper last year, I had thought that I posted in there that this doesn't really apply directly to me, as I do have the required gear, however yes, its sucks switching over to the other gear for a week of game play. I'm not trying to cause a big stink, my team complies to the rules and yes we do have lots of fun, and will be back there next year...almost this year (yesss) I am just making a point.

And Moati, this may be a shock to you, but nobody on my team has a marker that we've spent more than maybe $250 on, The most expensive tank anyone has bought is $90, And the most expensive mask is mine at about $75. I also think it odd that you feel anyone who wants to use a faster hopper only wants to cheat and shoot more than the 15bps limit. So all of us that support removing it are now wanting to shoot too fast? Thanks.

But once again, with the rule lifted or without it being lifted we will be there, and we'll have fun just like last year, If you feel I have singled you out, I'm not, with the exception of Moati in which I did.

I am for the rule staying in place and for it being lifted, I don't really care, like I said I dont think there is a big problem with the ROF, which is good, lets leave the rule, and find more refs to watch for wiping when there is a lack of presence. LETS HAVE SOME FUN
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