Special Ops Paintball: New position. Grenadier - Special Ops Paintball

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New position. Grenadier What do you think? Rate Topic: -----

#61 User is offline   Ace-014 

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 12:37 PM

View PostPhilipp122, on Jul 5 2007, 11:37 AM, said:

Oh, if we're talking about Special Ops positions, grenadier should never be on that list. Grenadier would make a great special tasking for a Hammer or Broadsword as long as they used the grenades sparingly (buildings, tanks, etc.).

But if your sole job in EVERY game was to throw grenades, it just wouldn't work, unless it was a scenario game and (I say again) you used grenades sparingly. Imagine buying twenty grenades every weekend (some people even play 4-5 times a week!) You would need to be rich. A case of paint and 10-20 F-Bombs would cost a lot. Then once you start playing, it would go like this.


Your squad is making its way up the field. Your pointman calls that a large squad is heading your way. Your offensive players engage in combat, and your squad leader sends out flankers. You would have to throw at least 2-3 well-placed grenades to take out a squad of 10 men. That's not that bad, but very impractical if it is your sole duty on the field. Now, if a broadsword was laying support fire while the flankers were doing their thing, I could easily imagine him pull out a grenade and throwing it at the oppositon, then going right back to laying paint. Also, 2-3 grendades is about $21. $21 for 10 men is $2.10 a kill :ghillie:

EDIT:spelling

I see where you are coming from. But isn't it pretty much a hammers sole job to lay suppressive fire? Don't Hammers need to spend ALOT on paint and air? See a Grenadier wouldn't just chuck grenades randomly. A Grenadier would make the opposition or defense disperse and get distracted. Imagine if you will, you are playing defense or offense and you and your buddy are near each other somewhat. All of a sudden a grenade lands between you and him. First you notice the grenade and then you react by instinct and take cover, while you were distracted with the grenade, a hole was opened and we moved up. And even if you didn't notice the grenade or you were to dumb to move away from it, you are eliminated and the hole is formed yet again. besides on cost, someone mentioned earlier about making your own grenades to cut down on cost. And 2-3 grenades for 21$? Have you ever even purchased a grenade before? 3 grenades at 6 $ a piece is 18$ which would be alot cheaper in the long run.

Wow did I just set up part of the base for grenadier in that speech?
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#62 User is offline   Wulfe 

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Posted 05 July 2007 - 11:24 PM

I personally don't think it would be a good idea to be a sole position due to the fact that if one guy carrying all the grenades gets out, there goes all the fun toys. Wouldn't it make more sense for everyone to carry some grenades?

You -could- do a sapper position at scenarios and what not, where they're the guys who lay mines and pop smoke grenades. That I can see being a tad more practical, since they'll get an idea of where players tread, when to spring ambushes, how to set up traps, wires, and other fun things that divert players or eliminate them. They can also be the guy with the LAAW rocket launcher. Just having grenades is a tad too generic. Every other kind of 'explosive' in paintball would be interesting and probably feasible if done right. But once again, it may only be a big game/scenario position, because of fairly obvious reasons.
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#63 User is offline   Ace-014 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 12:12 AM

View PostWulfe, on Jul 6 2007, 12:24 AM, said:

I personally don't think it would be a good idea to be a sole position due to the fact that if one guy carrying all the grenades gets out, there goes all the fun toys. Wouldn't it make more sense for everyone to carry some grenades?

You -could- do a sapper position at scenarios and what not, where they're the guys who lay mines and pop smoke grenades. That I can see being a tad more practical, since they'll get an idea of where players tread, when to spring ambushes, how to set up traps, wires, and other fun things that divert players or eliminate them. They can also be the guy with the LAAW rocket launcher. Just having grenades is a tad too generic. Every other kind of 'explosive' in paintball would be interesting and probably feasible if done right. But once again, it may only be a big game/scenario position, because of fairly obvious reasons.

other guys can carry grenades but are you gunna want some random guy with 2 grenades help break the opposition then have to get more people or have someone who is thouroly prepared to break apart an army? It's like asking whether you'd want a broadsword or hammer suppress a sqaud of 20. Sure the Broadsword can help but the Hammer will get it done.

Also with the "big game/scenario" thing, it'd be the same if you were a Hammer. If your a Hammer, are you gunna want to lay paint at a small game and waste your money or are you gunna want to save it for the bigger games.

This post has been edited by Ace-014: 06 July 2007 - 12:13 AM

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#64 User is offline   Swamp Thing 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 06:15 AM

I think for a senario team haveing someone who specializes in Throwing/launching would be a handy position

Throwing grenades is nto easy and I have yet to master it. I think that the grenaider should be something like this

Grenaider

1. Has mastered the ablility to lob grenades by hand and is able to take out the opposition with a well placed grenade 3/4 tiems
2. Has mastered the skill of building his own grenades and comes to the field each weekend with a dozen or more home made grenades ready for use.
3. Has a Marker with a grenade launcher on it and carries enought paint to be usefull in a fire fight.
4. If allowed by field also carries smoke grenades to use as needed by his team
5. Is also able to effectivly deploy landmines when the situation is called for.
6. Has skill and knows how to use Law style lanucher or mortors as well

He dosn't have to carry all the above gear at all times but he has it and can load himself out according to the situation and plan of battle.

Perhaps what I have descirbed falls more into an exotic weapons specialist reater then just a grenader or a demo man but his is the type of skill set I feel can contribute in a unique way to your team

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#65 User is offline   Philipp122 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 08:37 AM

I gotta admit, Ace-014 is laying down a pretty good arguement here. I still don't think there should be a sole position, but you definitely steered my course a bit. Maybe a Sabre could specialize as grenadier in a gunfight; he does not lay as much suppression fire as a hammer or broadsword, so he could carry plenty of grenades.


I think the best idea would be to have the guys that lay cover fire carry extra grenades. It would be simpler and more effective if more than one person is throwing grenades.
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#66 User is offline   prophet_subgenius 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 09:22 AM

Ace has something going here. Tree fitty suggested having a solid backbone for the position. So Ace since it is your baby I suggest taking every positive suggestion and work up a current position description and we can edit it. Along those lines I would like to comment on the marker. First noone ever suggested that the grenadiers sole weapon was grenades. A Grenadier would use a light marker (I'm fond of an ION here) Bottle on, no remote (less chance of tangling a throwing arm in the coil, and allowing him to set down his marker to throw, set mines, claymores, ect) with a light low profile hopper such as the small tripod. Remember all positions are offence and deffence.

If we can take a position description v2 and build upon it and solidify it then maybe just maybe Special ops can get a tightly honned peice of work to consider.
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#67 User is offline   Wulfe 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 09:32 AM

View PostAce-014, on Jul 6 2007, 03:12 AM, said:

View PostWulfe, on Jul 6 2007, 12:24 AM, said:

I personally don't think it would be a good idea to be a sole position due to the fact that if one guy carrying all the grenades gets out, there goes all the fun toys. Wouldn't it make more sense for everyone to carry some grenades?

You -could- do a sapper position at scenarios and what not, where they're the guys who lay mines and pop smoke grenades. That I can see being a tad more practical, since they'll get an idea of where players tread, when to spring ambushes, how to set up traps, wires, and other fun things that divert players or eliminate them. They can also be the guy with the LAAW rocket launcher. Just having grenades is a tad too generic. Every other kind of 'explosive' in paintball would be interesting and probably feasible if done right. But once again, it may only be a big game/scenario position, because of fairly obvious reasons.


other guys can carry grenades but are you gunna want some random guy with 2 grenades help break the opposition then have to get more people or have someone who is thouroly prepared to break apart an army? It's like asking whether you'd want a broadsword or hammer suppress a sqaud of 20. Sure the Broadsword can help but the Hammer will get it done.

Also with the "big game/scenario" thing, it'd be the same if you were a Hammer. If your a Hammer, are you gunna want to lay paint at a small game and waste your money or are you gunna want to save it for the bigger games.


Once again, if the guy with all the grenades gets eliminated, than there goes all your grenades and you won't be breaking through. Infact, I've never been eliminated by a grenade or even bought one. More people equals more angles, more approaches, and more chances of success. If you're the one guy with that much weight on you, you won't be moving that fast. You have to get from point A to point B, throw the grenade and make it work. If you already have someone at point B, wouldn't it make sense for him to have a grenade? Just because you deligate yourself to a grenade position doesn't mean you'll necessarily have better throwing capabilites than say someone who's played baseball for a long time or served in the military. There are many people capabile of throwing grenades. Let me ask you, would you want one guy who may not even make it there who can only hit one angle of a target over three guys with decent throws to hit the target from multiple angles with three times the firepower? Think of it that way.

Also, the other team will catch onto who has the grenades and target them right away. Their chances of survival just gone down that much more. Why do you think a hammer stays back? They have the most firepower and are a specialty support role that isn't easy to find. If they're eliminated, they're gone. Kapoof. There goes your heavy fire support. This is why it's not smart to depend on one player to specialize too much into something and put them into a risky position.

In anycase, I'd rather have two broadswords than one hammer. Two minds, two angles, several different targets and far more mobility is more effective than one guy with very little mobility with a narrow cone of fire. This is why I don't think it would be smart to have one guy with all the grenades. Besides, anyone can throw a grenade and know how to use it easy enough. I'd rather have a guy who knows other player's responses and habits well enough to set up mines, trip grenades, and other traps as well as being handy with a LAAW for a specialist. Makes him more useful, they aren't exposed to immediate fire like the grenader would be because they're a support position, and they have a wider, more useful role.

This post has been edited by Wulfe: 06 July 2007 - 09:36 AM

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#68 User is offline   Swamp Thing 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 09:40 AM

Where did anyone say that if you have a grenadier on your team then no one else can carry Grenades?

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#69 User is offline   Wulfe 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 10:15 AM

View PostSwamp Thing, on Jul 6 2007, 12:40 PM, said:

Where did anyone say that if you have a grenadier on your team then no one else can carry Grenades?

Swamp


No where, but sentences such as "other guys can carry grenades but are you gunna want some random guy with 2 grenades help break the opposition then have to get more people or have someone who is thouroly prepared to break apart an army?" implys that's the idea. the grenader's not a bad position idea, it just needs to be fleshed out more and encompass more than grenades. This is why I suggested my sapper idea, which is along the lines, only with things that not everyone would be good at using and would, I think, be a lot more rewarding to that particular player. LAAW rockets are quite common in scenarios, and not everyone expects mines or paint grenades tied to a string in a door way or smoke grenades being set off. Sure, they can carry more grenades, just have more purposes for it than regular uses. Notice how the equipment for the other Special Ops positions are pretty specialized with equipment (minus the Sabre/commander, although commanders have more communications or intelligence related equipment)? There isn't one for LAAW rockets, which are used at a heck of a lot more than grenades in a lot of scenarios I've noticed, so why not combine the two and throw in a couple things that you'd get a lot better at with practice and experience?

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate so we can work out the wrinkles and have something that would possibly be recognized by Spec Ops and maybe, by extension, having a lot more of these fun toys show up at big games, thus helping various buisnesses and companies by having lots of people going out and selling their products. I'm not sure how many people play hammer, but if Spec Ops didn't publish the position, would any of the hammers on the forum have thought of it or done it?

Personally, I'd love to see some grenade toting maniacs running around the field, but let's consider the ins and outs of it and expand the role a bit more! Going back to the broadsword/hammer comparison, I'm sure the Broadsword position was the first and more common, but after specializing the equipment and changing it enough, the Hammer was born. Anyone can throw a paint grenade, but does everyone know how to set one off as a trap? Know where to set up and hide a mine that will eliminate a squad? How to aim a LAAW and hit a target a football field away? Use a smoke grenade in every imaginable way and purpose with all sorts of various colours meaning different things? If they can do all of that, plus know how to toss and use grenades in regular, yet highly precise and creative ways, and I truely think we have a winner. There's a demand for a grenader position, because this is at least the third topic on it I've seen since I've gotten here. Let's just flesh it out a bit more and give the player some variety in their job. The Sabre's the jack of all trades who can do all the other positions to some extent. The grenader (or sapper) is the same thing... only with all the cool toys that you rarely see which is a darn shame.
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#70 User is offline   TREE FITTY 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:35 AM

So we've gotten... almost somewhere here in this forum. Here is the basic progression of this idea...

-Introduced... 700 million times, since God knows when.
-Still no Spec Ops position title.
-Decent, but not excellent, Grenadier Progression description
-Realization that a backbone is needed. No, no, thank youu.

The thing we need to get by here is the fact that a Grenadier is armed with more scenario-style weaponry. That's it. That's what seperates him from the rest of the woodsball positions. Throwing a grenade, I am sorry, but it is not an art. Suppressing a bunch of enemies, one shot one kill, commanding a squad that's an art that ALWAYS variates between situations. Throwing a grenade, I'm sorry. It's lob it, and your done. Pitching a grenade 50 yards isn't exactly precision, yet a long hard to maintain accuracy. It's a short range weapon that rarely eliminates people, which is why the sole job of throwing grenades will not work in woodsball.

You cna also argue that they can use mines and underbarrels in woodsball. That is a nice point, but again, mines are still very exotic, and you don't come across them a lot. Underbarrels, again, whether it be speadshot, balloon munition, etc, very exotic, but not impossible. What we need is something woodsball specific for the Grenadier, and I am starting to think we're looking in the wrong place...

it's not about the weaponry he has, it is about the skill he posesses that seperates him from the rest of the team.

One shot one kill, tank hunting, commanding, flanking, suppressing, something like that. What do real Grenadiers do that can applied to woodsball, and woodsballl only? Not blowing up hard targets, or pitching grenades.

I am starting to believe there is no job that the Grenadier does that is purely devoted to woodsball, it is a scenario position, and will remain a scenario position.

-Please note, though I state tank hunting, realize that they do not have a position on the woodsball page. It's because tanks turn woodsball into more of a scenario set up.

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#71 Guest_TippySnipa_*

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:42 AM

if anything it should be like a tank hunter or heavy artillery and not just have nades but also rockets and such
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#72 User is offline   Maverick_07 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 11:49 AM

View PostWulfe, on Jul 6 2007, 01:15 PM, said:

View PostSwamp Thing, on Jul 6 2007, 12:40 PM, said:

Where did anyone say that if you have a grenadier on your team then no one else can carry Grenades?

Swamp


No where, but sentences such as "other guys can carry grenades but are you gunna want some random guy with 2 grenades help break the opposition then have to get more people or have someone who is thouroly prepared to break apart an army?" implys that's the idea.


Piont noted. However, most other play styles don't allow you the leeway to carry so much, usually the radio, a couple nades, and a few extra pods. The fact that styles like Scouts, Riflemen, and Marksmen carry less equipment is universal. The whole basis for the Hammer is putting quantity into quality, meaning it's like having three Gunners, but one person. The other people on the team may carry 1 or 2 pods, but they rely on the Hammer to carry the bulk of there suppression and attacking fire. That being said, a grenadier carrys the bulk of the teams explosives and tank fighting equipment on hand for offense, and lays down artillary fire and mines, and traps on defense. Heavy Gunners (Hammers) and Grenadiers may get taken out, but they are only gonna be a severe loss to your team if you let them be, this is why all the players on a team come prepared, be it with pods or nades strapped to their back.

TREE FITTY

I don't think having a tank deviates from woodsball. When my team plays we just put the tank in the middle of the field and it's anybodys. We put a kill switch on it and everything, wooptie freakin doo, it doesn't turn it into a scenario, it just makes CTF and elimination more fun.

:(

This post has been edited by haon_07: 06 July 2007 - 11:53 AM

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#73 User is offline   Ace-014 

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Posted 06 July 2007 - 03:08 PM

View PostTREE FITTY, on Jul 6 2007, 12:35 PM, said:

So we've gotten... almost somewhere here in this forum. Here is the basic progression of this idea...

-Introduced... 700 million times, since God knows when.
-Still no Spec Ops position title.
-Decent, but not excellent, Grenadier Progression description
-Realization that a backbone is needed. No, no, thank youu.

The thing we need to get by here is the fact that a Grenadier is armed with more scenario-style weaponry. That's it. That's what seperates him from the rest of the woodsball positions. Throwing a grenade, I am sorry, but it is not an art. Suppressing a bunch of enemies, one shot one kill, commanding a squad that's an art that ALWAYS variates between situations. Throwing a grenade, I'm sorry. It's lob it, and your done. Pitching a grenade 50 yards isn't exactly precision, yet a long hard to maintain accuracy. It's a short range weapon that rarely eliminates people, which is why the sole job of throwing grenades will not work in woodsball.

You cna also argue that they can use mines and underbarrels in woodsball. That is a nice point, but again, mines are still very exotic, and you don't come across them a lot. Underbarrels, again, whether it be speadshot, balloon munition, etc, very exotic, but not impossible. What we need is something woodsball specific for the Grenadier, and I am starting to think we're looking in the wrong place...

it's not about the weaponry he has, it is about the skill he posesses that seperates him from the rest of the team.

One shot one kill, tank hunting, commanding, flanking, suppressing, something like that. What do real Grenadiers do that can applied to woodsball, and woodsballl only? Not blowing up hard targets, or pitching grenades.

I am starting to believe there is no job that the Grenadier does that is purely devoted to woodsball, it is a scenario position, and will remain a scenario position.

-Please note, though I state tank hunting, realize that they do not have a position on the woodsball page. It's because tanks turn woodsball into more of a scenario set up.

Ok I get what your saying.
Sniper - one shot one kill. Saber - man of all trades. Broadsword and Hammer - mostly heavy suppressive fire. Commander - tactics
Then theres Grenadier - breaks apart enemy opposition.
The Commander's squad can be organized and ready for anything, then a couple grenades land in the middle and everyone has to take cover and all of a sudden becomes disorganized.
The hammer can be laying suppressive fire when a grenade lands at his feet, he's gotta move is 50 lbs of gear outta there and stops laying suppressive fire long enough for his enemy to move up.
The sniper is in his perfect ambush position and a grenade lands by him, he has to move and potentialy give up his position to not be eliminated.

The main job of the grenadier is distraction, causing the enemy to divert there attention to not getting blown up and exposing themselves or giveing their enemy time to to move up.
I'm sure we'll find more tasks for the grenadier as we go. But theres proof that he'd be good both for woodsball and scenarios.
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#74 Guest_b_soukup_*

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 09:44 AM

if someone is goin to make a grenadier position then whats so difficult about using my marine position idea? :usa:
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#75 User is offline   Maverick_07 

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 11:20 AM

View Postb_soukup, on Jul 7 2007, 12:44 PM, said:

if someone is goin to make a grenadier position then whats so difficult about using my marine position idea? :usa:


Uh, yeah, that was pretty stupid.... :dodgy:
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