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Do you penalize a player... ...whithout a BBD - IF... Rate Topic: -----

Poll: Would you peanalize this player? (63 member(s) have cast votes)

Would you peanalize this player?

  1. Yes - rules is rules (9 votes [14.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.29%

  2. No, just a warning - as long as I see he has a replacement next game. (49 votes [77.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 77.78%

  3. No - fingers are an acceptable BBD (5 votes [7.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.94%

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#31 User is offline   JesterTLS 

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 01:06 AM

EMR_Ambush_Alpha, sorry to hear about your teachers lack of tact or appearent teaching ability. I believe I would be having a chat with the principle or superintendent. Of course I am 30 years old and do things differently now. Back in those days, I would have told the teacher what I thought and got kicked out. Dont do that. Go to your principle.
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#32 Guest_Tessaract_*

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 01:11 AM

View Postjtpaintball70, on May 7 2007, 12:47 AM, said:

View PostFrontier_Bill, on May 7 2007, 12:22 AM, said:

I have actually made people stick their finger in their barrel when they lost their BBD when I was a ref.

When I ref, that's what I do. If it was a an accidental loss, that's all I'll do. If the same person keeps losing it, I'll start hittign them with sitting out games



Oh yeah, this is a good idea, put our fingers in the barrel. yep i can see lawsuit city for something like this. bravo on attempting to make the sport safer and failing at it
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#33 User is offline   Maj Tom 

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 06:35 AM

View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 04:11 AM, said:

View Postjtpaintball70, on May 7 2007, 12:47 AM, said:

View PostFrontier_Bill, on May 7 2007, 12:22 AM, said:

I have actually made people stick their finger in their barrel when they lost their BBD when I was a ref.

When I ref, that's what I do. If it was a an accidental loss, that's all I'll do. If the same person keeps losing it, I'll start hittign them with sitting out games



Oh yeah, this is a good idea, put our fingers in the barrel. yep i can see lawsuit city for something like this. bravo on attempting to make the sport safer and failing at it

A broken finger isn't a big deal when compared to lawsuit from a person who was blinded at your field because someone didn't have a BBD.
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#34 Guest_Tessaract_*

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 07:49 PM

it is a big deal when there are MUCH better alternatives, for instance telling the one without a BBD to eather leave the feild or go purchase one from the pro shop.

and its also a big deal when you look at the fact when that kid gets a broken finger your looking at bad press "kid emited to hospital after referee at paintball feild told him to jam finger into gun" does not make a flattering headline for paintball support.

then you got very ticked parents, not to mention police asking questions

and ontop of that the feild will be responsible for damages, medical bills and whatever the judge decides to award the family for such an improper unsafe act that supposly trained feild staff told a newbie to do

it is a big deal dude. not something id reccomend, if nothing eles the feild owners could send out refs with a pocket full of socks to sell on feild to anyone who didnt rember to bring them. or better yet check to make sure players have a mask and sock at the shop when they pay feild fees, then they never step on the feild without a bbd
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#35 User is offline   Maj Tom 

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 09:20 PM

View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 10:49 PM, said:

it is a big deal when there are MUCH better alternatives, for instance telling the one without a BBD to eather leave the feild or go purchase one from the pro shop.

and its also a big deal when you look at the fact when that kid gets a broken finger your looking at bad press "kid emited to hospital after referee at paintball feild told him to jam finger into gun" does not make a flattering headline for paintball support.

then you got very ticked parents, not to mention police asking questions

and ontop of that the feild will be responsible for damages, medical bills and whatever the judge decides to award the family for such an improper unsafe act that supposly trained feild staff told a newbie to do

it is a big deal dude. not something id reccomend, if nothing eles the feild owners could send out refs with a pocket full of socks to sell on feild to anyone who didnt rember to bring them. or better yet check to make sure players have a mask and sock at the shop when they pay feild fees, then they never step on the feild without a bbd

Yes there are a vast number of better alternatives. I was just voicing my opinion and experience. One field I visit uses this technique just for staging area problems with BBD's. Normally pre-game when the markers are empty of both paint and air just after orientation but they're instructed to hold their marker by the barrel with their thumb over the tip if its not equipped with a BBD so they can walk to the proshop with less danger of discharging the marker to purchase the BBD. Markers are also not allowed to leave the field without a BBD with no exceptions. I've only seen this enforced twice out of ~24 visits to the field. Most of the time it works as a scare tactic during orientation so people aren't tempted to "cheat the system" by using squeegee's or plugs.

As for it being a big deal we have differing opinions, lets just leave it at that.
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#36 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:10 PM

View PostMaj Tom, on May 12 2007, 06:35 AM, said:

View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 04:11 AM, said:

View Postjtpaintball70, on May 7 2007, 12:47 AM, said:

View PostFrontier_Bill, on May 7 2007, 12:22 AM, said:

I have actually made people stick their finger in their barrel when they lost their BBD when I was a ref.

When I ref, that's what I do. If it was a an accidental loss, that's all I'll do. If the same person keeps losing it, I'll start hittign them with sitting out games



Oh yeah, this is a good idea, put our fingers in the barrel. yep i can see lawsuit city for something like this. bravo on attempting to make the sport safer and failing at it

A broken finger isn't a big deal when compared to lawsuit from a person who was blinded at your field because someone didn't have a BBD.


My field has a liability waiver that everyone must sign before being able to play. The waiver, in plain and simple terms, basically says that paintball can be a dangerouse activity, both on and off the field. The player agrees to follow all of the rules, and holds the field harmless in case of an accident. And I have to totally agree, a broken finger is not that big of a deal, when compared to being blind for the rest of your life, or worse.


View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 07:49 PM, said:

it is a big deal when there are MUCH better alternatives, for instance telling the one without a BBD to eather leave the feild or go purchase one from the pro shop.

and its also a big deal when you look at the fact when that kid gets a broken finger your looking at bad press "kid emited to hospital after referee at paintball feild told him to jam finger into gun" does not make a flattering headline for paintball support.

then you got very ticked parents, not to mention police asking questions

and ontop of that the feild will be responsible for damages, medical bills and whatever the judge decides to award the family for such an improper unsafe act that supposly trained feild staff told a newbie to do

it is a big deal dude. not something id reccomend, if nothing eles the feild owners could send out refs with a pocket full of socks to sell on feild to anyone who didnt rember to bring them. or better yet check to make sure players have a mask and sock at the shop when they pay feild fees, then they never step on the feild without a bbd

Okay, yes, there are other alternatives. Today, I had a few people lose their BBD's, and I had them leave their guns on the field and get a new BBD and then return and put it on. I had one guy actually take the BBD off right next to the field, and leave it at his table. I was not able to notice until he was on the field, at which point, I made him put his gun down, and head off to get his BBD. People are stupid, it happens.

Now what happens if you see a person that is off of the field that has their finger in their barrel? Exactly what the OP brings forth in his opening post. Yeah, as a ref, you should say something to him. It's your choice if you talk to him privately, or make a public spectacle of it. And if he should happen to accidently discharge his marker, and actually break his finger (Not saying that it can't or won't happen, but there is a chance that he might not actually break his finger), then the field should do everything that they can to help him out, including calling the paramedics. There should be documentation made immediately, to cover the field's own butt, and to actually help the person who accidently shot himself. Pictures taken, of the wound, of the gun itself, pretty much everything. If the field has player waiver's, then this person's should be found immediately. If a lawsuit does happen, then there is plenty of information there that shows the person was aware that they could be hurt, staff took measures and precautions to attempt to minimize all dangers, the person did the injury to themselves, and that the staff did everything that they could, within reason, to take care of the person that injured themselves.


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#37 User is offline   Ninja Jones 

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:16 PM

I don't even let people on to the field or out of dead boxes without a BBD, although if they can't find one, I tell them to put their gun down and start searching... lol, but thats only if I run out of backups...

This post has been edited by Ninja Jones: 12 May 2007 - 10:16 PM

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#38 Guest_Tessaract_*

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:55 PM

View PostLament, on May 12 2007, 11:10 PM, said:

View PostMaj Tom, on May 12 2007, 06:35 AM, said:

View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 04:11 AM, said:

View Postjtpaintball70, on May 7 2007, 12:47 AM, said:

View PostFrontier_Bill, on May 7 2007, 12:22 AM, said:

I have actually made people stick their finger in their barrel when they lost their BBD when I was a ref.

When I ref, that's what I do. If it was a an accidental loss, that's all I'll do. If the same person keeps losing it, I'll start hittign them with sitting out games



Oh yeah, this is a good idea, put our fingers in the barrel. yep i can see lawsuit city for something like this. bravo on attempting to make the sport safer and failing at it

A broken finger isn't a big deal when compared to lawsuit from a person who was blinded at your field because someone didn't have a BBD.


My field has a liability waiver that everyone must sign before being able to play. The waiver, in plain and simple terms, basically says that paintball can be a dangerouse activity, both on and off the field. The player agrees to follow all of the rules, and holds the field harmless in case of an accident. And I have to totally agree, a broken finger is not that big of a deal, when compared to being blind for the rest of your life, or worse.


View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 07:49 PM, said:

it is a big deal when there are MUCH better alternatives, for instance telling the one without a BBD to eather leave the feild or go purchase one from the pro shop.

and its also a big deal when you look at the fact when that kid gets a broken finger your looking at bad press "kid emited to hospital after referee at paintball feild told him to jam finger into gun" does not make a flattering headline for paintball support.

then you got very ticked parents, not to mention police asking questions

and ontop of that the feild will be responsible for damages, medical bills and whatever the judge decides to award the family for such an improper unsafe act that supposly trained feild staff told a newbie to do

it is a big deal dude. not something id reccomend, if nothing eles the feild owners could send out refs with a pocket full of socks to sell on feild to anyone who didnt rember to bring them. or better yet check to make sure players have a mask and sock at the shop when they pay feild fees, then they never step on the feild without a bbd

Okay, yes, there are other alternatives. Today, I had a few people lose their BBD's, and I had them leave their guns on the field and get a new BBD and then return and put it on. I had one guy actually take the BBD off right next to the field, and leave it at his table. I was not able to notice until he was on the field, at which point, I made him put his gun down, and head off to get his BBD. People are stupid, it happens.

Now what happens if you see a person that is off of the field that has their finger in their barrel? Exactly what the OP brings forth in his opening post. Yeah, as a ref, you should say something to him. It's your choice if you talk to him privately, or make a public spectacle of it. And if he should happen to accidently discharge his marker, and actually break his finger (Not saying that it can't or won't happen, but there is a chance that he might not actually break his finger), then the field should do everything that they can to help him out, including calling the paramedics. There should be documentation made immediately, to cover the field's own butt, and to actually help the person who accidently shot himself. Pictures taken, of the wound, of the gun itself, pretty much everything. If the field has player waiver's, then this person's should be found immediately. If a lawsuit does happen, then there is plenty of information there that shows the person was aware that they could be hurt, staff took measures and precautions to attempt to minimize all dangers, the person did the injury to themselves, and that the staff did everything that they could, within reason, to take care of the person that injured themselves.


wavers dont hold up in court too well when someone gets injured, you cant sign a peice of paper giving someone eles permission to harm you or let you be harmed on someones property and there not responsible. just saying in legal stance things are usualy stacked in favor of the person injured.

plus i dont think a finger over the barrel is a good alternative to a bbd. consider this, they shoot themselfs in the finger, instintfully there gonna pull there hand out, probably swear a bit and shake there hand, but what you dont notice is the fact there still holding there marker with the other hand and the finger still on the trigger, now while there jumping around in pain i can see it very easy for two or three more balls to just be shot off out of reflex.

im just saying that telling someone to put there body part in the way of the barrel is a bad idea to solve the situation, having them put there marker down and bet a bbd or not even be allowed to pay feild fees unless they offer proof of bringing protection devices is a much better alternative to solve the situation. even in the instance where that was the only option i would tell them to put there marker on the ground, not shove a body part down the barrel.
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#39 User is offline   The Stuntman 

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 11:22 PM

Quote

plus i dont think a finger over the barrel is a good alternative to a bbd. consider this, they shoot themselfs in the finger, instintfully there gonna pull there hand out, probably swear a bit and shake there hand, but what you dont notice is the fact there still holding there marker with the other hand and the finger still on the trigger, now while there jumping around in pain i can see it very easy for two or three more balls to just be shot off out of reflex.


Obviously not - but Im talking about jammed in to 2nd knuckle...
And as to pulling your finger out...well...umm...well ok, here it is - I shot myself in the finger a few years back. I was trying to pick some broken shell (on the field, not in staging) & stuck my finger so far in it got stuck. While wiggleing gun & finger in an attempt to free myself...I bumped the trigger.
What happens when shot like, you dont jump...you freeze. Near total paralysis....
...followed by lots of very loud profanity. Which was a shame, because if I hadnt gotten everyones attention by screaming, none of them would have ever known that I had just pulled such an incredibly bone-headed move.

But with the electros you might have a point - you can set some of those suckers off by sneezing.
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#40 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 09:20 AM

View PostTessaract, on May 12 2007, 10:55 PM, said:

im just saying that telling someone to put there body part in the way of the barrel is a bad idea to solve the situation, having them put there marker down and bet a bbd or not even be allowed to pay feild fees unless they offer proof of bringing protection devices is a much better alternative to solve the situation. even in the instance where that was the only option i would tell them to put there marker on the ground, not shove a body part down the barrel.

You make a good point. Again, I would rather that player simply put their gun on the ground while they are still on the field, and then head off and get a BBD, then return and put that on. But I believe in the psychological approach that if they know that thier finger is in the end of the barrel, they will do what it takes to safe the marker (i.e. safety on, finger no where near the trigger, electo's turned off...) as they headed off to get their BBD. In the safety orientation that I give (Pretty much the only person that does the orientation's, everyone likes that I get the point's across, explain why the customer can't do what they aren't supposed to do, and I insert humor that every one can laugh/chuckle at), I say this at the end of our safety rule:
At 20 feet (When a player must stop and yell "surrender or die"), these things will sting. At 6 inches (Potentially possible if the person does not surrender and the other person is brave enough to move up that close), they will downright hurt.


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#41 User is offline   Maj Tom 

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 09:33 AM

View PostTessaract, on May 13 2007, 01:55 AM, said:

....
plus i dont think a finger over the barrel is a good alternative to a bbd. consider this, they shoot themselfs in the finger, instintfully there gonna pull there hand out, probably swear a bit and shake there hand, but what you dont notice is the fact there still holding there marker with the other hand and the finger still on the trigger, now while there jumping around in pain i can see it very easy for two or three more balls to just be shot off out of reflex.

im just saying that telling someone to put there body part in the way of the barrel is a bad idea to solve the situation, having them put there marker down and bet a bbd or not even be allowed to pay feild fees unless they offer proof of bringing protection devices is a much better alternative to solve the situation. even in the instance where that was the only option i would tell them to put there marker on the ground, not shove a body part down the barrel

Normally their instructed to hold just by the barrel to further cut down on accidental discharge. As for the second knuckle approach I can see a few different problems with that (fingers getting stuck in the barrel, awkward to hold guaranteeing a second hand hold near the trigger, etc).

The only time I see it enforced is in the stagging area where there's already a direct threat and just leaving it somewhere wouldn't guarantee it wouldn't be moved or jostled by other player's. In other firing areas the refs are good at monitorig the exits and maker sure no marker leaves with out a proper BBD.

This post has been edited by Maj Tom: 13 May 2007 - 09:39 AM

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#42 User is offline   emr_ambush_alpha67 

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:35 PM

ok this whole thing with wavers. as stated by a lawyer that came to my field and i quote" you canot willing sighn away your right to sew somebody. even if your name is on this pice of paper just means you have read the rules and that you promes not to sew them at that particular moment." then hands me his card and told me if i ever had a probem with my boss to call him....... -_- ok now im going to address the whole broken finger concept. i was shot yesterday point blank in the finger by a person that was in my same bunker. barrel was touching my finger. right on the knuckel.300 fps..... i can still walk my trigger and im not in a splint. unless the gun is set exstreamly high you will not break your finger by using it as a quick fix for a bbd untill u get a new one.

This post has been edited by emr_ambush_alpha67: 13 May 2007 - 01:35 PM

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#43 Guest_Tessaract_*

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 05:24 PM

View Postemr_ambush_alpha67, on May 13 2007, 02:35 PM, said:

ok this whole thing with wavers. as stated by a lawyer that came to my field and i quote" you canot willing sighn away your right to sew somebody. even if your name is on this pice of paper just means you have read the rules and that you promes not to sew them at that particular moment." then hands me his card and told me if i ever had a probem with my boss to call him....... -_- ok now im going to address the whole broken finger concept. i was shot yesterday point blank in the finger by a person that was in my same bunker. barrel was touching my finger. right on the knuckel.300 fps..... i can still walk my trigger and im not in a splint. unless the gun is set exstreamly high you will not break your finger by using it as a quick fix for a bbd untill u get a new one.



not all body compositions are made the same. if someone was to have a vit d defficiency for example would be alot more prone to breaking there fingers, infact the reason the 300fps rule is in place is due to above that it can break bones in the fingers. or someone could have there velocity jacked up like a moron, i wouldnt make a scientific judgement based on one case. though i am glad your not hurt. others might be however
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#44 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 03:03 AM

True, you can not sign away your right to sue a person. But in signing a waiver, you do acknowledge that the actions that you are about to undertake have the potential to be dangerous. Should the person get hurt, and then choose to sue the field, if you have a signed waiver, and you can show that the staff did all that they could, within thier power (Don't perform first aid unless you are qualified to perform first aid, do call for paramedics...), then their case against the field becomes less stable.

Honestly, if a finger is placed up to the first knuckle in a barrel, and somehow the marker actually does discharge, I highly doubt that the person is going to have a broken finger. Not saying that it can't happen, not saying that it won't happen, but a hand/finger is much more durable than the alternative, which is why BBD's and masks were made, that being your eye. Unless your local press absolutely dispises the owner of the paintball field, or paintball in general, all of the story will be printed/reported if something does happen. Granted, it may start off with a sensationalized headline, but there will be mention of the rest of the story at some point in time. And bad press can be spun into good press...


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#45 User is offline   emr_ambush_alpha67 

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Posted 14 May 2007 - 04:22 PM

ok how about this.. we say if u use the finger u have the person hole the gun by the barrel so that it cant acidently discharhe.

This post has been edited by emr_ambush_alpha67: 14 May 2007 - 04:23 PM

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