Special Ops Paintball: BT sued by HK - Special Ops Paintball

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BT sued by HK over BT-TM7 design Rate Topic: -----

#31 User is offline   blackcelldrumr15 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:24 PM

View PostThe Stuntman, on Jun 6 2009, 12:23 AM, said:

View PostPuzuma, on Jun 5 2009, 09:11 PM, said:

I read/heard somewhere that if you change an existing product by at least 10% It's not considered infringement. No I don't remember where I heard it and I'm not even sure if it's true. If it is I would think that adding an ASA, a .68 barrel and internals that function from compressed gas would be more than the 10%.

Its 30%.
Not actually an official law, but an established legal guideline.

But thats not the issue... HK has already sold the rights to make replica, airsoft & paintball HK items to someone else - so anybody OTHER than HK or the company they sold the rights to is infringing on the patent by making paintball mods.


Were these rights sold before or after the TM7 was first produced?
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#32 User is online   The Stuntman 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:30 PM

View Postblackcelldrumr15, on Jun 5 2009, 09:24 PM, said:

View PostThe Stuntman, on Jun 6 2009, 12:23 AM, said:

View PostPuzuma, on Jun 5 2009, 09:11 PM, said:

I read/heard somewhere that if you change an existing product by at least 10% It's not considered infringement. No I don't remember where I heard it and I'm not even sure if it's true. If it is I would think that adding an ASA, a .68 barrel and internals that function from compressed gas would be more than the 10%.

Its 30%.
Not actually an official law, but an established legal guideline.

But thats not the issue... HK has already sold the rights to make replica, airsoft & paintball HK items to someone else - so anybody OTHER than HK or the company they sold the rights to is infringing on the patent by making paintball mods.


Were these rights sold before or after the TM7 was first produced?

I can check, but I dont think so. Even if HK hadnt sold the rights to someone in particular, the would still be able to sue on the grounds that these pb companies are still making unauthorized reproductions. Whether they would win...hard to say. My guess is that HK has known about this stuff for years & just didnt mind...until someone else made them a cash offer for exclusive rights. Then they ask eveyone else who has been making thestuff for years to stop. $$$

To be honest, Im suprised that some gun company hasnt thought of this sooner...

This post has been edited by The Stuntman: 05 June 2009 - 09:31 PM

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#33 User is offline   blackcelldrumr15 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:31 PM

$$$$$$$$ Makes the world go round $$$$$$$$$$
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#34 User is offline   Gernads 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:33 PM

I think that's pretty much b.s. on H & K's part. They are making tons of money while paintball is still being hit pretty hard by the economy. This seems like a money grab if nothing else. If they want to sue companies for not modifying their markers enough to not be exact replicas, then they should start suing the rest of the milsim market for both paintball and airsoft.
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#35 User is offline   blackcelldrumr15 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 09:33 PM

I think they could make A LOT more by going after the airsoft industry, but that's me.
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#36 User is offline   Ethrealwolf 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 10:21 PM

View Postblackcelldrumr15, on Jun 5 2009, 09:33 PM, said:

I think they could make A LOT more by going after the airsoft industry, but that's me.


Probably so.

then again, form what I was led to believe, a lot of airsoft sales are to the Chinese clones, and IIRC it's hard to successfully sue the Chinese OEMs
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#37 User is offline   blackcelldrumr15 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 10:24 PM

They can keep them from selling them in the US though....
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#38 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 10:32 PM

View PostTora, on Jun 5 2009, 10:41 PM, said:

Maybe the Gardner brothers own stock in H&K.........

Wow, real original. ;)
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#39 User is offline   chro 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 11:21 PM

Some people here need to stop making the idiotic argument that just because HK makes good money, that they should drop their case.

THIS IS the whole point of property rights and trademarks, to PREVENT others from stealing your product, design, etc.

if they let BT copy their design (and it is, obviously so.) then they would have to let ANY company copy them, and that would be a ruin to an individuals

(company or single person) right to personal product and property.


it is stupid to argue that just because HK makes more money than BT that they should drop it, i mean BT makes way more money than Me so should i be

allowed to copy their designs and sell them as my own?


We all love paintball here, but to say that HK should not defend their rights is not only ignorant but damaging to paintball as a whole.
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#40 User is offline   blackcelldrumr15 

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Posted 05 June 2009 - 11:54 PM

View Postchro, on Jun 6 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

Some people here need to stop making the idiotic argument that just because HK makes good money, that they should drop their case.

THIS IS the whole point of property rights and trademarks, to PREVENT others from stealing your product, design, etc.

if they let BT copy their design (and it is, obviously so.) then they would have to let ANY company copy them, and that would be a ruin to an individuals

(company or single person) right to personal product and property.


it is stupid to argue that just because HK makes more money than BT that they should drop it, i mean BT makes way more money than Me so should i be

allowed to copy their designs and sell them as my own?


We all love paintball here, but to say that HK should not defend their rights is not only ignorant but damaging to paintball as a whole.


So what about the other thousands of companies that also have things that look like HK's stuff??? Our argument is this could kill the milsim industry.
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#41 User is offline   Firemage 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 12:01 AM

What does the HK copy right cover?

If it only covers the internals of the gun then they have no case.

Also copyright cases need to be proved in such a way that the copyright holder had done something unique, and the infringer copied said feature.

This is likely about money, counties are cutting back on arms orders around the world, this has to be hitting HKs bottomline.

but we also have to wonder what they really want, maybe they just want fees from the companies.


Funny thing is how much HK has gained over the years due to open licenses, example the USP uses a Browning based internal.

Oh and while HK does have rights, what thous rights really cover will be the question of the day, when this comes to trail.

Personally i'm an open source junkie, and i think copyright is overrated and outdated.
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#42 User is online   The Stuntman 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 12:01 AM

View Postblackcelldrumr15, on Jun 5 2009, 11:54 PM, said:

View Postchro, on Jun 6 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

Some people here need to stop making the idiotic argument that just because HK makes good money, that they should drop their case.

THIS IS the whole point of property rights and trademarks, to PREVENT others from stealing your product, design, etc.

if they let BT copy their design (and it is, obviously so.) then they would have to let ANY company copy them, and that would be a ruin to an individuals

(company or single person) right to personal product and property.


it is stupid to argue that just because HK makes more money than BT that they should drop it, i mean BT makes way more money than Me so should i be

allowed to copy their designs and sell them as my own?


We all love paintball here, but to say that HK should not defend their rights is not only ignorant but damaging to paintball as a whole.


So what about the other thousands of companies that also have things that look like HK's stuff??? Our argument is this could kill the milsim industry.

I dont think it will kill it. Some companies already to license deals (Tippman/US Army), some gun makers seem not to care, others will make new deals. And paintball companies can always change to look of some products slightly, so as not to resemble a specific gun. There will be some changes for sure...but I think it will be ok in the end.
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#43 User is offline   Legato 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 02:17 AM

Personally i agree with HK. I am LOL'ing over this whole thing. Hard. Those milsim companies did steal from HK's design. Therefore, they DO owe HK some part of their revenue from selling it. Most of the stuff was advertised as HK whatever knockoff marker (at least tippmann accessories and stuff were). I saw oin MCB they listed numerous companies HK is after, not just BT and Tippmann. Though they have violated it the worst. Sooo many accessories to tippies are HK rip offs/knock offs. HK deserves money for those parts.

You people who think HK needs to leave us alone aren't thinking legal matters here. Yeah, it sucks, we are being sued. But we deserve it. Paintball companies copied their guns and made markers in their image and design on the outside. That would be like making models of Ferrarris and selling em for big money, then being upset that Ferrari is suing me for stealing their image. If you don't have a legal agreement with said individual or company to use their likeness it is STEALING.

Just like how Hybrid got sued. Sure they put Bruce Lee and Tony Montana and all sorts of other COPYWRITED images on their parts, then sure as hell, they got sued for it. Who didn't think that was going to happen? Same thing here. You base your item on a well known thing, and don't get the owner' permission, then yes YOU ARE STEALING IT.


View Postblackcelldrumr15, on Jun 6 2009, 02:54 AM, said:

So what about the other thousands of companies that also have things that look like HK's stuff??? Our argument is this could kill the milsim industry.

And that would be bad again why?? ;) Would get rid of one of the biggest blights on our sport

And who is to say HK won't go after more companies. Maybe this is just the start. Maybe they want to see how these court rulings pan out, and if they are favorable, maybe they will go after more. Like i said, i saw at least 5-8 companies listed on MCB.

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#44 User is offline   Puzuma 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 06:36 AM

There seems to be a bit of confusion as to what is going on with this.

Quote

Sometimes it's difficult to remember that copyright and trademark, while they are both intellectual property, refer to different things. According to the US Copyright Office FAQ, copyright "protects original works of authorship including literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works such as poetry, novels, movies, songs, computer software and architecture. Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation, although it may protect the way these things are expressed."

While copyright covers expressions of ideas, trademark covers logos and brand names. The US Patent and Trademark Office says that "A trademark includes any word, name, symbol, or device, or any combination, used, or intended to be used, in commerce to identify and distinguish the goods of one manufacturer or seller from goods manufactured or sold by others, and to indicate the source of the goods. In short, a trademark is a brand name."


All these HK suits are for Trademark Infringement. Since BT and Tippmann aren't putting the Posted Image on any of their markers I don't think they really have a case. Patent infringement? That might make more sense but still... An air gun isn't the same as a real gun.
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#45 User is offline   BLACK MAMBA 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 06:42 AM

i heard that bt was contacting all tm7 owners to return there tm7's for destruction.... ;)
just what paintball needs another lawsuit.

This post has been edited by BLACK MAMBA: 06 June 2009 - 06:43 AM

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