Special Ops Paintball: BT sued by HK - Special Ops Paintball

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BT sued by HK over BT-TM7 design Rate Topic: -----

#61 User is offline   Perinhawk 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 05:30 PM

Crap, and I just started looking at a TM-7, now there's a good chance they may be sent out of production. Meh, this matter will have sorted itself out by the time I'll have enough money to buy a new marker anyway.
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#62 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 05:37 PM

View Postblackcelldrumr15, on Jun 6 2009, 01:54 AM, said:

View Postchro, on Jun 6 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

Some people here need to stop making the idiotic argument that just because HK makes good money, that they should drop their case.

THIS IS the whole point of property rights and trademarks, to PREVENT others from stealing your product, design, etc.

if they let BT copy their design (and it is, obviously so.) then they would have to let ANY company copy them, and that would be a ruin to an individuals

(company or single person) right to personal product and property.


it is stupid to argue that just because HK makes more money than BT that they should drop it, i mean BT makes way more money than Me so should i be

allowed to copy their designs and sell them as my own?


We all love paintball here, but to say that HK should not defend their rights is not only ignorant but damaging to paintball as a whole.


So what about the other thousands of companies that also have things that look like HK's stuff??? Our argument is this could kill the milsim industry.

Let it die, paintball will live without the mil-sim industry. People that dont like paintball use mil-sim against us also. And I'm sure the thousands of other companies will either stop selling their H&K look alikes or face the consequences.

View PostTora, on Jun 6 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

View PostZ3R0, on Jun 6 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

View PostTora, on Jun 6 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

View PostPuzuma, on Jun 5 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

...... SP8....... Isn't that based on the HK XM8? Does this mean Smart Parts is going to get sued too?

Yeah but, everyone is too scared to sue smart parts.
They might just sue you back for taking their idea to sue people.


I really don't think that Heckler & Koch is afraid of Smart Parts.

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Just making a joke ;)

Nobody wants to listen to you complain about SP, if you aren't going to add something worth while to the thread then don't add anything. Kthnxbai.
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#63 User is offline   Firemage 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 06:24 PM

i don't think this is the end of mil-sim, between the counter claims being lodged, the fact that US courts don't like ruling in favor of non US companies, and the fact most of these cases are settled outside of the courts, we'll see tones of mil-sim markers, and H&K look a likes for ages to come. the fact that kee decided to counter sue means that they know something well enough to risk a case on their own part. and given that their case was filed almost 2 months after H&K started their own filings means that they must have some sort of plan.

I think the fact that H&K waited so many years to even try this might not play in their favor. Example if they filed the trademark in the US this year, they might end up like the guy who created the smiley face, who can't claim a dime since his trademarks where filed after people started to use it.

Again i stress, the fact that a company is counter suing means that there is more to this than we can see on the surface.

edit note on my background, i'm a recently graduated pre-law who decided not to go to law school but rather policy school, i like the idea of crafting laws and policy more than trying to wrangle them.

This post has been edited by Firemage: 06 June 2009 - 06:25 PM

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#64 User is offline   Gilla 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 07:02 PM

First, i apologize for not reading the entire thread before posting on the possibility that this has already been said. Having said that, It sounds like H&K may be facing a lawsuit over someone being shoot for brandishing a paintball gun that resembles an H&K product. Therefore they have their legal team starting up a counteraction to help line up their defense. I hope my meaning is clear...
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#65 User is offline   callsignmars 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:30 PM

PCS would get some crap too; they basically got an A-5 (tho now i'm hearing this, i wonder if that already got nerfed by tippmann?)
and i REALLY hope the industry as a whole doesn't suffer from it. i'd be concerned that mil-sim gets killed to the point where it'll be hard to find anything not Speedball...

all that said, it would be interesting if as a result of all this mess if we either had H&K paintball guns or at least paintball guns made to H&K standards.

oh and as a side-note; i'm looking at the Umarex site now, they look like RAP4 rips. i'm seeing some H&K replicas in their airsoft selection, but dude, i'm seeing stats on par with the JUNK CYMA i bought for $20 at a gun show.

it looks to me like H&K's latest spoiled rotten brat kid is calling daddy to get rid of the big kids on the block.
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#66 User is offline   chro 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:41 PM

This wont kill milsim, many companies can get the rights to make a paintball marker that looks like a real gun and many more can invent designs.

also: MODDING!

its not that hard...turn on your dremels!
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#67 User is offline   FrozenLiquidity 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:48 PM

I'm surprised to see people making comments that mil-sim should die and that paintball would be better off without it.

I don't care what you're shooting. A space gun or a mil-sim. As long as you're enjoying it and bringing good sportsmanship, I say welcome to the sport. It's not one group or another that will give paintballing a bad rap. It's individuals.

I'd rather see this sport expand and grow as opposed to having a section of it essentially neutered - As some of you seem to support.
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#68 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 10:52 PM

View Postcallsignmars, on Jun 7 2009, 12:30 AM, said:

PCS would get some crap too; they basically got an A-5 (tho now i'm hearing this, i wonder if that already got nerfed by tippmann?)
and i REALLY hope the industry as a whole doesn't suffer from it. i'd be concerned that mil-sim gets killed to the point where it'll be hard to find anything not Speedball...
Just because it's not Mil-Sim doesn't mean it's speedball. I have a Tippmann 98c that doesn't have a bunch of extra crap bolted on, does that mean it is a speedball gun?

all that said, it would be interesting if as a result of all this mess if we either had H&K paintball guns or at least paintball guns made to H&K standards.
I don't get why that would happen. There are already paintball guns made to high standards, they're called high ends (Planet Eclipse, Bob Long, Dye, etc....)

oh and as a side-note; i'm looking at the Umarex site now, they look like RAP4 rips. i'm seeing some H&K replicas in their airsoft selection, but dude, i'm seeing stats on par with the JUNK CYMA i bought for $20 at a gun show.
So? They still own the rights to make H&K replicas and BT and all the others don't.

it looks to me like H&K's latest spoiled rotten brat kid is calling daddy to get rid of the big kids on the block.

It looks to me like the paintball industry got caught doing something illegal and is facing the consequences. Hooray for the law, cause it's there for a reason. :dodgy:
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#69 User is offline   Firemage 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:28 PM

View Postghost93, on Jun 7 2009, 01:52 AM, said:

It looks to me like the paintball industry got caught doing something illegal and is facing the consequences. Hooray for the law, cause it's there for a reason. :dodgy:


I should yet again point out nothing has be decided yet, only the first CLAIMS have been made, meaning, without a judge's word otherwise, the "industry" broke no laws. In this country we operate under the idea that until such has been proven in the court of law no one is at fault or guilty of any crime. That is the problem with current IP law since it lacks the presumption of innocence.


In my earlier post, it is all a matter of TIMES, also all tippmann has to really do is prove the MP5 (or the looks of it and other H&K guns) has become well enough a common thing that their part of the public domain. I again point to the smiley face case.

Now while the "sky is falling" "mil-sim is going to die" is annoying, i should also point out that H&K isn't the only gun company out there, and there are companies that are likely far more willing to give a pass on the looks of their guns. Example with a little quick work the TM-7 could look like a UZI or MAC-10 type gun.

Once again this will likely end out of court, and the status quo will likely be kept up.

to add more comments via edit another thing Tippmann/BT could do it is try to prove said features are common enough on all modern firearms, and again are beyond trademarking.

worse case for paintball (in my view), licensing fees = higher prices, worse case for H&K they lose the trademark

This post has been edited by Firemage: 06 June 2009 - 11:41 PM

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#70 User is offline   Legato 

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Posted 06 June 2009 - 11:48 PM

View PostFrozenLiquidity, on Jun 7 2009, 01:48 AM, said:

I'm surprised to see people making comments that mil-sim should die and that paintball would be better off without it.

I don't care what you're shooting. A space gun or a mil-sim. As long as you're enjoying it and bringing good sportsmanship, I say welcome to the sport. It's not one group or another that will give paintballing a bad rap. It's individuals.

I'd rather see this sport expand and grow as opposed to having a section of it essentially neutered - As some of you seem to support.

You don't live in my state then i can see. Guns in MA is a big scary thing. You mention gun and everyone freaks out. Dead serious. Some of the strictest gun lawss in the country. People think anyone with a gun is a redneck yahoo. What does this have to do with PB and milsim???

Everyone i talk to about PB in this state who knows nothing about it all say the same types of things...

"OH so you go out in the woods and play army and war and pretend to be GI Joe?"
"God if you want to play soldier you should have just joined the army"
"Aren't you a little old to play GI joe?"
"So you enjoy shooting people with guns? Must be some kind of psycho..."

EVERYONE associates PB with guns, war, and army. Problem is...very little of PB is related to that at all. So just by having so many people shoot markers that look real, and having people pretend to be GI Joe, we have now been lumped in with the Gun Crowd. And in this state...that is a BAD thing. They are constatntly tightening laws on guns in this state. I know soon enough, PB will be thrown in with it....

Hence why i never call a PB marker a gun...i don't want them associated in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. PC liberals are taking over this country more and more everyday, and as much as i hate to say it, but here we have to cater to their ways and try to avoid their hellfire and aims at curtailing our markers. Soon enough they will be called weapons.

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#71 User is offline   Firemage 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 12:26 AM

Just to provide a follow up point from your friendly local liberal (political compass -6.75, -6.15)

I don't mind guns, some people who own them scare me to no end, but i'm fine with people owning firearms. (i own none, but my father, owns at least 3, grandpa has a .32acp colt knock off older than he is.)

The man who has represented my family since forever John Dingell has a A+ score from the NRA, and everyone on my mom's side and half the people on my dad's are good loyal Dems.

Thing to keep in mind that within the Democratic party there are a few types of Dems, i'm a older style social justice, labor Dem, Catholic in background. I often find myself at odds with coastal Dems, mainly over my beloved auto companies. Just because the Dems are in charge doesn't mean we're all PC nutters who are in charge of the party. There are enough Dems who like guns to keep the restrictions on them rather limited in the long run.

Also if i could make such a deal with conservatives, to trade never touching guns, with us getting our bloody single payer health system.


Now ends the comments of your local friendly liberal dem, who happens to play paintball and is just fine with gun ownership.


Oh and for the record i love living in Metro Detroit.


Also back on topic, H&K is still being a bit of a jerk about this :dodgy:
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#72 User is offline   chro 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 02:30 AM

View PostLegato, on Jun 6 2009, 11:48 PM, said:

View PostFrozenLiquidity, on Jun 7 2009, 01:48 AM, said:

I'm surprised to see people making comments that mil-sim should die and that paintball would be better off without it.

I don't care what you're shooting. A space gun or a mil-sim. As long as you're enjoying it and bringing good sportsmanship, I say welcome to the sport. It's not one group or another that will give paintballing a bad rap. It's individuals.

I'd rather see this sport expand and grow as opposed to having a section of it essentially neutered - As some of you seem to support.

You don't live in my state then i can see. Guns in MA is a big scary thing. You mention gun and everyone freaks out. Dead serious. Some of the strictest gun lawss in the country. People think anyone with a gun is a redneck yahoo. What does this have to do with PB and milsim???

Everyone i talk to about PB in this state who knows nothing about it all say the same types of things...

"OH so you go out in the woods and play army and war and pretend to be GI Joe?"
"God if you want to play soldier you should have just joined the army"
"Aren't you a little old to play GI joe?"
"So you enjoy shooting people with guns? Must be some kind of psycho..."

EVERYONE associates PB with guns, war, and army. Problem is...very little of PB is related to that at all. So just by having so many people shoot markers that look real, and having people pretend to be GI Joe, we have now been lumped in with the Gun Crowd. And in this state...that is a BAD thing. They are constatntly tightening laws on guns in this state. I know soon enough, PB will be thrown in with it....

Hence why i never call a PB marker a gun...i don't want them associated in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. PC liberals are taking over this country more and more everyday, and as much as i hate to say it, but here we have to cater to their ways and try to avoid their hellfire and aims at curtailing our markers. Soon enough they will be called weapons.





well to be fair Boston MA was put on lockdown by this: Posted Image

all joking aside, the lumping of groups into violent gun crowd is not fair and needs education, those people who think that kind of stuff will usually never change their minds, even if the markers we use are shaped like a teddy bear.

Even in a state such as MA it will change eventually with more public relations and integration. It will be a slow process but it WILL happen.
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#73 User is offline   Tora 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:08 AM

View Postghost93, on Jun 6 2009, 08:37 PM, said:

View Postblackcelldrumr15, on Jun 6 2009, 01:54 AM, said:

View Postchro, on Jun 6 2009, 02:21 AM, said:

Some people here need to stop making the idiotic argument that just because HK makes good money, that they should drop their case.

THIS IS the whole point of property rights and trademarks, to PREVENT others from stealing your product, design, etc.

if they let BT copy their design (and it is, obviously so.) then they would have to let ANY company copy them, and that would be a ruin to an individuals

(company or single person) right to personal product and property.


it is stupid to argue that just because HK makes more money than BT that they should drop it, i mean BT makes way more money than Me so should i be

allowed to copy their designs and sell them as my own?


We all love paintball here, but to say that HK should not defend their rights is not only ignorant but damaging to paintball as a whole.


So what about the other thousands of companies that also have things that look like HK's stuff??? Our argument is this could kill the milsim industry.

Let it die, paintball will live without the mil-sim industry. People that dont like paintball use mil-sim against us also. And I'm sure the thousands of other companies will either stop selling their H&K look alikes or face the consequences.

View PostTora, on Jun 6 2009, 03:05 PM, said:

View PostZ3R0, on Jun 6 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

View PostTora, on Jun 6 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

View PostPuzuma, on Jun 5 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

...... SP8....... Isn't that based on the HK XM8? Does this mean Smart Parts is going to get sued too?

Yeah but, everyone is too scared to sue smart parts.
They might just sue you back for taking their idea to sue people.


I really don't think that Heckler & Koch is afraid of Smart Parts.

-Z3R0

Just making a joke :D

Nobody wants to listen to you complain about SP, if you aren't going to add something worth while to the thread then don't add anything. Kthnxbai.

Geez dude, chill.
It was just a joke I really don't hate SP.
Just take a chill pill.
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#74 User is offline   FrozenLiquidity 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 10:56 AM

View Postchro, on Jun 7 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

View PostLegato, on Jun 6 2009, 11:48 PM, said:

View PostFrozenLiquidity, on Jun 7 2009, 01:48 AM, said:

I'm surprised to see people making comments that mil-sim should die and that paintball would be better off without it.

I don't care what you're shooting. A space gun or a mil-sim. As long as you're enjoying it and bringing good sportsmanship, I say welcome to the sport. It's not one group or another that will give paintballing a bad rap. It's individuals.

I'd rather see this sport expand and grow as opposed to having a section of it essentially neutered - As some of you seem to support.

You don't live in my state then i can see. Guns in MA is a big scary thing. You mention gun and everyone freaks out. Dead serious. Some of the strictest gun lawss in the country. People think anyone with a gun is a redneck yahoo. What does this have to do with PB and milsim???

Everyone i talk to about PB in this state who knows nothing about it all say the same types of things...

"OH so you go out in the woods and play army and war and pretend to be GI Joe?"
"God if you want to play soldier you should have just joined the army"
"Aren't you a little old to play GI joe?"
"So you enjoy shooting people with guns? Must be some kind of psycho..."

EVERYONE associates PB with guns, war, and army. Problem is...very little of PB is related to that at all. So just by having so many people shoot markers that look real, and having people pretend to be GI Joe, we have now been lumped in with the Gun Crowd. And in this state...that is a BAD thing. They are constatntly tightening laws on guns in this state. I know soon enough, PB will be thrown in with it....

Hence why i never call a PB marker a gun...i don't want them associated in ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM. PC liberals are taking over this country more and more everyday, and as much as i hate to say it, but here we have to cater to their ways and try to avoid their hellfire and aims at curtailing our markers. Soon enough they will be called weapons.





well to be fair Boston MA was put on lockdown by this: Posted Image

all joking aside, the lumping of groups into violent gun crowd is not fair and needs education, those people who think that kind of stuff will usually never change their minds, even if the markers we use are shaped like a teddy bear.

Even in a state such as MA it will change eventually with more public relations and integration. It will be a slow process but it WILL happen.


lol I remember that. I tried to find the ones that were placed in seattle, but it looks like someone else got to them first. Any person whos' watched adult swim for any length of time would have recognized that and probably had themselves a bit of a laugh. I suppose somewho who watches lifetime instead, calls in the bomb squad.

Legoto, that sounds like a problem with the general populace in general. Not being properly informed or educated about the difference between markers and firearms (guns). While a mil-sim look can defintely do more to provoke a response from someone who doesn't know the difference, but if it were to disappear the problem would still exist. Airsoft guns portray a much more accurate representation of a real firearm (no braided steel or macroline, no hoppers, no drop down, drop forward, or ASA of any kind) which will still put the people of MA in a flurry if they're worried about lite-brite cartoon characters. I'd want to say that the solution would be to educate the masses, but that's more of a pipe dream than anything.

Obviously we have a very different demographic to base our views off of, our state is assuredly more redneck friendly. One of the problems is that markers are already heavily associated with guns in forms other than milsim. No matter how you dress it up or color it, the idea behind both is similar. To accelerate a projectile to a dangerous velocity (dangerous depends on how you look at it, paintballers need to wear protection, so even though it's a very safe sport, without that protection the velocity of paintballs is dangerous to exposed areas). Not to mention, perhaps the most offending part to some people is still there, and is at the heart of the sport. You're using these markers (in their mind guns) and firing them at other people. People may still be wearing BDUs or the specops camo jerseys and pants, perhaps ghillie suits. In an outsiders mind, I imagine it looks largely the same, milsim markers or not.

I guess if you want to eliminate any association with actual firearms, the elimination of milsim is a step in the right direction. It's just the tip of the iceberg though. Don't think for a moment that if they did that, that they would stop there. I doubt that would stop people from making comments about joining the army or dressing up like GI Joe. I think education is the answer, but that's a difficult path to tread. There's no easy solution, but I find it hard to believe that conceding points and giving up rights that affect the sport are going to be helpful in the long run. But hey, to each his own.

I'll be watching to see what the outcome of this is. If so, I've got to wonder if other firearms manufacturers will follow suit in the crusade against airsoft and paintball markers.
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#75 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 07 June 2009 - 05:33 PM

Learning more about what the actual issue is, I retract my earlier statements (well, except for not liking H&K, but that's unrelated).


On the subject of milsim, I'm not involved in it, but I don't see a problem with it. If people want to do it, then let them.

As far as "PC liberals taking over the country," it makes no sense to me to just roll over and let them do that. Stand up to them, educate them. Don't just placate them.
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