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4th Amendment shirts Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:28 AM

Not that I'm a Sovereign, nor do I think the government is evil, or the people working in it are out to eat my children and take my money, but I still found these shirts funny...

http://www.stumbleup...om/4thamendment

If people could do stuff like this in protest, instead of calling everyone that disagreed with them a socialist/communist/whatever on shirts then we may have better discussions. =p
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#2 User is offline   Puzuma 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:31 AM

Kind of neat... But... Now you'll have to strip to get through the metal detector.
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#3 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:45 AM

View PostPuzuma, on 06 December 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

Kind of neat... But... Now you'll have to strip to get through the metal detector.

Yup. I get "randomly searched" when I go through airports cuz I normally fly from/to a small airport near me with only old people to bigger ones when Robin lived in Michigan. I stuck out like a sore thumb. I thought it was silly but I was never really upset. Some people seem to get real crappy. I think these are funny, but I know some people are wearing them just to cause a scene so I'm sure causing a scene at the metal detector doesnt really matter to them.

I dont think I've even seen a body scanner, but its been awhile since I've flown. =]
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#4 User is offline   cdrinkh20 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:20 AM

Hahaha excellent find. :laugh:
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#5 User is offline   Invictusone 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 11:46 AM

You may find yourself intimately aquainted with the tsa guy if you wear this shirt to fly.

Amazing idea for civil disobedience instead of violent protest. (I am not endorsing that idea, but as far as resistance, this is a humorous way to do it.)

This post has been edited by Invictusone: 06 December 2010 - 11:46 AM

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#6 User is offline   Lt.Col.Vortex 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:10 PM

OK, lets get one thing strait. The people who get scanned in this way, they volunteer to do so. You have the option to deny the search. So I don't want to hear how this is cruel or agents your rights as an American, because you asked for it.

I more than most people think that this is wrong in so many ways, but you have the option to deny if you want. They can't enforce it on you(yet).
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#7 User is offline   Benaiah 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:37 PM

Im all for the scanning machines, but i would still wear this just for the funny factor, and the look on the agent's faces
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#8 User is offline   The Hobbit 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:40 PM

View PostJack the Ripper, on 06 December 2010 - 03:10 PM, said:

OK, lets get one thing strait. The people who get scanned in this way, they volunteer to do so. You have the option to deny the search. So I don't want to hear how this is cruel or agents your rights as an American, because you asked for it.

I more than most people think that this is wrong in so many ways, but you have the option to deny if you want. They can't enforce it on you(yet).

Please dont post bitchy comments without proof reading your post for misspellings and using the wrong words. Agents =/= Against. Strait =/= Straight Besides that I agree with your second paragraph.
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#9 User is offline   Krazy8 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 12:50 PM

I love the shirt! That is a brilliant idea...I want one the simply says "Hi TSA!"

And there really is no reason for this new scan to piss people off...people just dislike and/or are affraid of change.
The people who refuse to use the scanner in my opinion should be searched...they are effectivly admitting that they might have something that they are trying to hide.

I know there are some folk who simply want to disagree with everything possible and stand and stand on the grounds of their denial of using the scanners as a ethical protest...but when these same people bitch about getting singled out and searched even I laugh.

The folks getting pulled out of the scanner and searched at great detail should also think about what they are wearing on a flight.

In all my years of flying I have never had a problem. It is the idiots who can't figure out TSA security that slow things down.
I wear clothing that is simple, carry nothing in my pockets that will create a debate with the TSA people and wear slip on shoes. Of course I did these things prior to the regulation changes after 9/11 so there was no change in my routine.
This new scanner will not create any problem for me at all.

But until TSA gets used to using the new scanner and flyers become accustomed to what will and won't attrack further searches then there will contiue to be problem and both attitude and time delays.
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#10 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:31 PM

View PostJack the Ripper, on 06 December 2010 - 01:10 PM, said:

OK, lets get one thing strait. The people who get scanned in this way, they volunteer to do so. You have the option to deny the search. So I don't want to hear how this is cruel or agents your rights as an American, because you asked for it.


No, they don't volunteer. And the alternative for denying isn't that much better, and under a 4th Amendment rights argument is equally violating of that right.

View PostKrazy8, on 06 December 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:

And there really is no reason for this new scan to piss people off...people just dislike and/or are affraid of change.
The people who refuse to use the scanner in my opinion should be searched...they are effectivly admitting that they might have something that they are trying to hide.


Actually, I can think of some very real reasons besides "something they want to hide."

If we rip up the 4th Amendment and we ignore anyone who may be concerned with privacy (whole new subjects altogether, so I'll avoid them for this post), there are some potential medical concerns with the new scanners.

Reference #1, Reference #2, Reference #3

Personally, I'd rather know for a fact something is safe (or at least know the risks) before I decide to give it a try. People make decisions every day about what is and is not an acceptable risk. But they need some amount of information to make that choice. Being forced and told it's "safe" when clearly there are enough scientists to make headlines who are unsure isn't very helpful in that decision making process (if anything, it makes one more suspect of the true health implications).


@ The TSA / scanners / etc.

The sad fact is that the TSA is tossing people with little training into these positions and wanting technology to sort out the good from the bad. This is what makes things like these scanners even up for a debate instead of not being used.

The Ben Gurion International Airport in Tel Aviv still has just the old fashioned carry-on bag xray and the metal detector. They have had a grand total of one incident beyond the security checkpoint (a licensed CCW had managed by accident to get his firearm through security). They don't need or use these other technologies because they bother to train, and train well, their people. They take the time to profile (darn, there's that evil word again) actions, body language, and speech. If someone is acting suspicious, they're questioned further. If someone acts like a routine passenger (be they a tourist, businessman, whatever), there's no problem. They also have the shortest security lines.

The answer isn't technology, but people who are trained well enough to be able to make subjective decisions based on what they observe.

@ The Shirts,

Very funny. I like it.
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#11 User is offline   Benaiah 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:58 PM

Those articles are just scientists playing devils advocate. Ive learned not to lean to heavily on researchers who say things like "could," "may," and "has the potential to." Its just like driving. You "could" get into an accident, and the more you drive, the more likely you "may" severely crash. Every intersection you go through "has the potential" to be fatal. Its statistics. Murphy's law. The more you drive the more likely you are to crash. So should we stop driving? its an option. You could move to NYC and walk or bike anywhere. but then you could fall off your bike or get mugged walking. there will always be a risk, and i would rather submit myself to an hour in the sun's worth of radiation that put myself, the other passengers on the plane, and the people on the ground (9/11, anyone?) at a higher risk of getting killed by someone getting something on a plane that they shouldn't.

I do, however, agree that the TSA Agents should receive a higher level of training in body language and facial reading than they do currently.
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#12 User is offline   Krazy8 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:04 PM

You are truely right.

And I understand the 4th and how it can be tossed aside like so much paper. But quite truethfully I have nothing to hide so I do not care about the regulations they have at airports.
Yes I find more than a few of the things they require a bit over the top, but I can truely understand why the rules are there. Finger nail files...still have yet to see anyone ever pull out the 1.5" file from their clippers and go after another person. If this ever happens to me I will seriously have to restrain myself from laughter.

Man does the TSA need better training! That would go a hell of a long way to solving so much of the problems.
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#13 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 02:10 PM

View PostBenaiah, on 06 December 2010 - 02:58 PM, said:

Those articles are just scientists playing devils advocate. Ive learned not to lean to heavily on researchers who say things like "could," "may," and "has the potential to." Its just like driving. You "could" get into an accident, and the more you drive, the more likely you "may" severely crash. Every intersection you go through "has the potential" to be fatal. Its statistics. Murphy's law


Honestly, it would be ignorance to say, with conviction, whether or not the scanners are safe. They are simply too new. I cannot tell you they are not safe, and the TSA cannot tell me they are. We both can say "maybe" or "possibly" or "could be."

Go back to what I said about risk versus benefit:

Quote

People make decisions every day about what is and is not an acceptable risk. But they need some amount of information to make that choice.


For example, since you used driving, there are different levels of risk that come with driving the speed limit versus driving thirty miles an hour over the speed limit. Driving faster will usually get you where you're going in less time. On the other hand, your chances of getting pulled over on the same piece of road increase and your odds of a severe crash also go way up.

Or in this case, is the potential for skin cancer worth the trip? Does the machine offer a benefit to passengers that makes the risk (of unknown value at present) worthwhile?

In my opinion, there are ways with less health risk to get the same results. I even cited an example where a better idea is in practice, and how it's done for them. And that opinion is all I'm stating.
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#14 User is offline   Down Range Pain 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:04 PM

View PostKrazy8, on 06 December 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:

I love the shirt! That is a brilliant idea...I want one the simply says "Hi TSA!"


my mom is designing metallic ink shirts bras and underwear. ill let her know

anyone else got appropriate suggestions?
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#15 User is offline   Puzuma 

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:13 PM

View PostDown Range Pain, on 06 December 2010 - 06:04 PM, said:

View PostKrazy8, on 06 December 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:

I love the shirt! That is a brilliant idea...I want one the simply says "Hi TSA!"


my mom is designing metallic ink shirts bras and underwear. ill let her know

anyone else got appropriate suggestions?


Keep it simple.... censored rectangles. Smiley faces on the butt cheeks.
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