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#1 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:06 PM



Let the flaming commence.

You guys asked for it, so here we go. Part one of who knows how many. Mike posted a long video about the death of paintball, and cited many reasons he thinks it's dying. One of them was "Kids playing it". Here's my take on that portion of his vid.

Mikes original vid :

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#2 User is offline   1-I 

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:28 PM

Agreed Moms are a big problem and you can say what you want about "If hes on the field Ill play him like anyother and he should accept that" but that never flies with the moms in quesion.

And about the court think well you mentioned it, and if can happen in hockey then nothing in life is safe from lawsuits anymore.

Now it is pointless for me to mention the things that I do at work with the kids and parents interested in the beginings of paintball because I know that on the grand scale every one of us doing the responsible thing in the retail store has about 100 that dont give a damm or know anything.

Raise the age limit well for the sake of keeping junior out my line of fire because hes "So god giving amazing" Im for it, but thats my only logic for raising the age limit to something like 18

10 is the age I forced my bro before I let him get into this and I made him get shot in a burst befoe he could get anything (granted Autocockers gave the best burst at the time) and since kids bring dads to play and keep the games going Im not going to argue against the kids comeing to play.
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#3 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:57 PM

It almost seems like a right of pain passage for some kids. "Can I take a paintball hit?" It's like the other ones of "how many sour candies can I eat before my mouth implodes" and such. Problem is that when they lean into my line of fire, now it becomes my problem, and one I'd like answers to.

My understanding of law is that you can not give permission to allow someone else to intentionally harm you. I can't sign a piece of paper saying "Its ok to let you break my arm", as the law will step in regardless. (x-ref Kevorkian....) Now add a minor to the mix, and it gets bad fast. People think waivers will save them, but they don't. If you sign a waiver at a paintball field and someone runs up to you and kicks you in the jaw, they're not magically held unaccountable for that. And if they are, I'll never play paintball again because heck, why stop at just kicking someone in the jaw?

I would love to hear from an actual lawyer on these issues, and what their take is. I understand that most lawyers work in a state basis, at highest, but I'd really like to know. I also understand that most people think that "what happens on the court stays there", but not anymore. And I'll address that elephant in the room, and offer it tea, if it makes the sport better or at least more prepared for it's future.

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#4 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 04:57 AM

Thankfully, the risk of this is minimal on my home field. Very few of the fields on it are readily visible to spectators or anyone out in the staging area, which means unless Junior complains to mom, it'll likely get ignored.

However, I see potential for a nasty case out of the situation you describe.

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But I do have a fair understanding of "use of force" type laws in Minnesota because I've worked in the security industry and they bothered to actually teach us state law (and case law of relevance).

My thoughts: It could very well end up in court, it could be very expensive, but I don't expect those assault charges to stick. The prosecution cannot establish a reasonable argument of intent given the context of the incident (a paintball game with other active participants). While in many "use of force" cases the key is reasonable perception* of those involved, it would be a tough sell to insist a mother's biased perception against the word of yourself (and quite likely, others present pulled in as witnesses) was a reasonable perception.

*Reasonable Perception - Could a normal, reasonable person arrive at a similar conclusion based on events as viewed from your argument. Also, you are not held accountable for that which is not known (hindsight being 20/20 and all). For example, if a guy breaks in and says he has a gun, and I shoot him, and it turns out he was lying and doesn't have a gun, that does not count against my argument because I didn't know he was lying at the time I shot him.

In the context of paintball, most reasonable people will know the intent is to shoot active players to remove them from the game. The perception of assault would not be reasonable unless: nobody else is in that direction, it's very close range and blatantly deliberate to everyone there, if you had made threatening statements ahead of the game, etc.



That all said; I certainly see it as being a trip to the courthouse and an expensive lawyer payout. I don't see any jailtime or criminal record out of the deal.
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#5 User is offline   Eskimo 

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 07:40 AM

I see this all the time with little kids.
Nobody has cried to mom, although a few times they came geared up, got shot and left. (in the miserable pile of humanity as described)

I'd like to see maybe a limit of 13.
if possible.

My field owner would hate this as much of the business comes from, pay up. get shot. leave in 30 minutes.
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#6 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 02:35 PM

View PostThalion, on 06 May 2011 - 06:57 AM, said:

My thoughts: It could very well end up in court, it could be very expensive, but I don't expect those assault charges to stick. The prosecution cannot establish a reasonable argument of intent given the context of the incident (a paintball game with other active participants). While in many "use of force" cases the key is reasonable perception* of those involved, it would be a tough sell to insist a mother's biased perception against the word of yourself (and quite likely, others present pulled in as witnesses) was a reasonable perception.


Here's where we hit a snag. motive. See, it could be anything that "sets you off". the kid shot you earlier in the day, his friends taunted you or got in your face earlier, anything that can be grasped at can be used as motive. Even saying "I love playing against kids, they're so easy to shoot" before the game would provide that intent you talked about. It may sound like grasping at straws here, but to be honest when minors are thrown into the mix, all bets are off.

To be fair, I've met some cool kids playing paintball. But I spent the better part of 2 years being shot up badly because when I came around a bunker my first thought included "if I shoot this guy more than once, will his mom call the cops on me?" We all accept a level of violence and risk on the field, but a mom is legal guardian of a kid, and makes the decision of acceptable risk. That's when things get scary for me.

Tuesday's video will address this a bit more, I made a cardinal sin on this one. "If you're gonna complain, have a solution ready." And I didn't think to include it this time. My mistake, will rectify.

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#7 User is offline   I.K.E. 

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 03:57 PM

All it is going to take is one lawsuit to change the entire industry. So if it is going to happen, it will happen whether we do anything about it or not. Too many people still want to play paintball for it to simply disappear. One solution that might make sense would be to have "leagues". Like little league baseball. It won't make "soccer mom" go away, but it would take the heat off older players, and yet not eliminate business from younger players.

Think it will mess with dads playing? I don't think so. Some dad brings his kid and watches him play, if he was inclined to play the old way, he certainly will the new way. In fact, I believe he'd be more inclined to play knowing he'd be doing it with older players, and not kids. It would be a rare 8 year old who actually plays well enough to make the game worthwhile. Its the same as playing chess with an 8 year old. Most of the time winning is too easy.
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#8 User is offline   Mack 

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 03:10 PM

View PostTyger, on 06 May 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Even saying "I love playing against kids, they're so easy to shoot" before the game would provide that intent you talked about.


I hate playing against little kids. They're all quicker than me and much smaller targets . . . it just isn't fair.


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#9 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 08:16 PM

Kids come in two flavors, the easy prey and the good ones.

The easy prey isn't fun to play with, because let's be honest -- what's the point if you're running around blasting everyone without even breaking a sweat? It's not fun. Don't get me wrong, I like to win and all, but I want to win against someone with skill level (or other advantages) closer to my own.

The good ones drive me nuts, because they're smaller and can do all this crazy stuff I can't even hope to do. Enjoy it while you can kids, because you won't be able to do that nearly as well when you get older!



Tyger, you bring up a fair point that trying to demonstrate intent is an ugly mess, particularly when minors get involved. I think that unless you said some things showing incredibly poor sense, it'd be in your favor with the judge and jury. Of course, the soccer mom could happen to be very rich and have an amazing lawyer....

I'm kind of curious to hear what your proposed solution to a potentially dangerous situation is.
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#10 User is offline   Mack 

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 12:18 AM

View PostThalion, on 07 May 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

I think that unless you said some things showing incredibly poor sense, it'd be in your favor with the judge and jury. Of course, the soccer mom could happen to be very rich and have an amazing lawyer....


Or hot . . . if she was hot, I'd vote against Tyger as a jury member just on basic principals. (Sorry, that's just how it is:)
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#11 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 09:43 AM

View PostThalion, on 07 May 2011 - 10:16 PM, said:

Tyger, you bring up a fair point that trying to demonstrate intent is an ugly mess, particularly when minors get involved. I think that unless you said some things showing incredibly poor sense, it'd be in your favor with the judge and jury. Of course, the soccer mom could happen to be very rich and have an amazing lawyer....


That's the thing. There's no precedent, so judges tend to hedge when it comes to things like this. They'll probably side with the parent/kid, seeing that they can use it later to say they're in favor of family values. And as I said before, even if the kid is 100% ok with what's going on, it's mom who makes teh legal decisions on this. That's when it gets ugly.

That and, well, anything can be used against you. Even if you made a post on a forum 4 years ago saying "Shooting kids is so much fun", that's public information and fair to use against you. Never underestimate the power of a very angry mom and a lawyer hungry for good press.

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#12 User is offline   Krazy8 

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:00 PM

I disagree from a different standpoint.

My son started at 10, My daughter at 7. Major qualifier here though...both myself and their mother played paintball with them.

No play day babysitting for my kids! When my kids took painful hits that brough tears...we were there to soth both the child and the shooter.
I can not tell you how many players told us at the start of the day that they felt bad shooting at my kids! Both the wife and I would laugh and tell them not to worry....we like to shoot at them and quite honestly the kids learned to play with us...so they were going to shoot back and not go easy on the old guys. In fact, my daughter would be a bubbling pile of smiles int he staging area after shooting anyone in her early couple years of play.


So I think children can play...if the perents are out there with them.
Exposing the parents to the game with the kids builds the family unit as well as informs the parent just what happens during a game and how easy it is to get hit a bajillion times.


I do not agree with the drop off parents...they actually kinda anger me. Just like you said Tyger, one would think they would want to see what Jr. is doing all day with the money they droped him off with.

This post has been edited by Krazy8: 08 May 2011 - 06:03 PM

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#13 User is offline   Invictusone 

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:12 PM

I agree, parents should stay and play or watch kids under a certain age. I would say in my opinion it is around under 15 that parents should be required to be at the field.
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#14 User is offline   Tyger 

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 06:58 PM

View PostKrazy8, on 08 May 2011 - 08:00 PM, said:

So I think children can play...if the perents are out there with them.


To compare that, I was reffing a group of dads/kids in a private group many, many years ago. The KIDS insisted kids vs parents, and as much as I tried to talk them out of it they were all gung ho for it. Mid-day, I'm walking up a trail to where I heard shooting (2 refs in thick woods, lotta ground to cover.) I'm about to yell at a parent for having his mask off when I notice there are kids around him, nobody's wearing masks, and one kid on the ground also maskless. Game over, I sprint over expecting the absolute worst case scenario.

Turns out the parent shot one ball at the kid, kid went to ground crying and wouldn't get up, parent, not knowing what to do, ran over, took the kid's goggles off to make sure he was ok. thankfully, the kid had buddies with him who didn't start shooting when the parent ran over. That was a situation that could have gotten worse. Dumbest thing to me is that it happened later on, SAME kid, same results. At that point we determined he was doing it for attention, and benched him for a game. Cruel, probably, but it made the point.

Point is that the kid, and the parent, really had no idea what to do. Funny thing is that these kids thought it was hillarious to shoot the parents 5-6 times after they were dead, but cried rivers when they got hit once, at range. The parents also knew what was going on, but they didn't know what to do when the situation went south.

Kids CAN play, I've seen that myself. Tuesday's video will explain my take a little better and I don't want to give it all up yet. We'll see if youtube's "auto-post" system actually works.

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