Special Ops Paintball: Yet another new marker discussion. Need some advice - Special Ops Paintball

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Yet another new marker discussion. Need some advice Want a clip fed marker that is cheap and reliable. Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   mrfranswa 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:09 PM

Ok guys, I have given a lot of advice using my "poormans" motif, however luck has finally granted me a standard paying career, (40k yr), and I now have some disposable income.

However, I am not looking to merely upgrade my marker, I want a new marker to fit my...... ugh "sniper" motif. I have a few specifications, which I really want to keep to.

1- Cheaper the better. Honestly, spool-fed markers and bolt markers are just as accurate. I love spools, but I am not going to spend over 350$ for a setup including a few clips.
2- Clip feed. Now, I have made a few clip systems for my markers, and I just want to have a standard clip feed system, which I will buy. I love making my own stuff, but I want to have at least 1 marker as my main. I am going clips, because with my playing style, I never fire more than 50 or so rounds a match. 18-20 round clips are best. Hoppers are really big and bulky, and I found I get a lot more kills with a clip system. However, I do like the ability to switch between the 2.
3- NO PUMPS! I just don't want a pump all right?

So that leaves me with a handful of possibilities. Could I get some advice on what everyone thinks?

Rap4

I know the nickname is crap4, because it is a lot of show and no tell. However, with clip designs they are the cheapest markers out on the market.

1- T68 pistol with 20 round clip, fake powerlett, (so I can use remote), and 16' barrell

I was about to get this setup, however it arrived after a large scenario, and I returned it by not accepting the package.

PROS

- Cheapest setup with everything I want
- Can change from a rifle to a pistol in a few seconds
- Fairly lightweight
- lots of upgrades, hopper attachment possibility, e-trigger to fire 16bps if I ever wanted to go crazy.

CONS

- Crap4's customer service, (explain later)
- Bolt design, (so it can be loud)
- Top loading clip tubes are pretty large and hard to carry around

Thoughts

I originally was planning to get this marker, because it can go from a pistol with 10 round clips using powerletts, to a 16bps remote marker. This is pretty good in the long run, because if I ever wanted to break it down, or use my current 98 mod and have a sidearm, I could just use this. Not to mention with a few extra clips, it cost only 300$. However, rap4's customer service is pretty bad. I am use to dealing with tippmann who is a leader in the field. When the package arrived four days late, and I was not able to write my review, I simply denied the package, and it was returned to sender. That way, everyone would receive a full refund right? After a few days I made a courteous call to RAP4 to let them know that the marker would be arriving back to them in a day. At first, the customer service representative told me that since I did not call them a week ago, that chances are I would not receive a refund. Puzzled, I asked his return policy, and told him I had simply denied the package by UPS, and it was being sent back. Then he told me in cases like that, they simply deny the package again, and I would be charged shipping. Yet AGAIN puzzled, I informed him that this is not the case, and finally after a lot of heckling, he told me they would accept the package and charge me the 25% restocking fee on used merchandise. At this point, I was beginning to lose patience and asked to speak to his supervisor. He replied he wouldn't be back in until Monday. When I called back, luck ally for me the package had not arrived yet, and I sorted out the confusion. However I was STILL CHARGED THE RESTOCKING FEE ON USED MERCHANDISE EVEN THOUGH I NEVER ACCEPTED THE PACKAGE. While angry, sometimes you just have to read the fine print. Two days later, I received a call back from the person in charge I spoke to on Monday. Apparently, he said I never opened the package, and they would only charge me a 15% restocking fee. My question to RAP4 is, is 30$ really worth the chance of losing my business? I buy and review markers all the time for the store I work at. Since the package was never opened and I sent the package back, they were reimbursed and had no loss.

Not to mention, I am hearing a lot of negativity for their marker's quality. However, does the good outweigh the bad? Also, since I never actually looked at the marker, can you stick a reflex sight on top of it, or is the clip in the way?

2- T68 GEN4 with magazine attachment
This is the standard clip marker you see online. It can be upgraded to look just like an m4


Pro's

- 18 round magazine that is a MAGAZINE
- bottom loading magazine
- Is cool
- I can stick my evolution hopper on if I really want

Con's

- Again, Crap4 reputation
- More expensive than the pistol variant by about 100$
- Can't break down into a pistol

Thoughts

A MAGAZINE magazine fed system would be the best for me for many reasons. First off, it loads from the bottom making it better balanced and much faster to reload. The magazines are again MAGAZINES, meaning they fit better, and aren't long tubes. This also means they are easier to load, and I can carry more in the longrun. I really like the magazines. However, I just don't know if it edges out over a traditional tube setup.


TIBERIUS

1- Tiberius rifle crap. Ya know, the cool stuff

Pros

- Darn cool
- Clip fed
- They have good customer service from what I hear
- Can break down to a clip fed pistol, (mighty cool)

Cons

- Reallyyyyy expensive. Clips are what..... 50$ each?
- Comes with a HAPPY SKIPPING JOYFUL PERSON tripod :dodgy: jk
- Clips are tubeclips

Thoughts

While the marker looks cool, I simply think it may be too expensive, and not be applicable for the uses. Can anyone tell me if it is worth the money?


ION

1- Longbow Ion
The grandaddy of the clip fed sniper guns. Ahh, so cool :) I still remember the first time I saw it and said I wanted one.

Pro's

- Best quality marker in this category, period.
- Can break down into an ion fairly easily

Con's

- Too expensive
- Tube clip
- Breaks down to an ion and not a pistol

Thoughts

I am pretty keen on the longbow ion. It gets rave reviews for it's low pressure and lack of sound. I just don't like the 450$ price tag I find on ebay. Is there a cheaper way to build it?






So as you can see, I have a lot of contenders, and I need some honest answers. Basically, I think I have a choice between the longbow ion and the t68. One is cheap, and one is expensive. Any thoughts? Any additional markers anyone may think of? Remember, it MUST be a clip fed system. I already have a hopper based marker, and don't want another 1. I really conserve paint, and the hopper is more a big black bullseye.

thanks friends :)

This post has been edited by mrfranswa: 25 July 2008 - 01:38 AM

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#2 User is offline   dougdeb 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:17 PM

There's another one.....crud....can't remember the name...... ATS-10 I think. Look in the Marker Gallery. I think Marauder_Pilot did a review/photos of his.
Sorry can't remember the name.
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#3 User is offline   thisissparta 

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:20 PM

first, the ion isn't the daddy of sniper markers. The Tac-One longbow is.

Second try Pump. A Maverick can be had for cheap, and then slap on a springfeed and get some 10 round tubes to refill it. Or just go full Stock Class with a rock and cock tube feed and 12 Grams.

Yeah, the ATS-10 is a good clip fed marker. Marauder_Pilot, our local crazy canadian, runs two of them on remote. However if a Tac-8/9 is out of your price range an AT series will be too.

This post has been edited by thisissparta: 24 July 2008 - 09:23 PM

The Spartan Armory: 98 Custom, Spyder e99 Avant, Tippmann A5, PMI-1, Splatmaster, SL-68 II, Classic Mag, Nel-Spot 007, WGP Sniper II (~95), DM5, SL-68II, Dye Reflex, Sideline Duckslide, Pro-Carbine, Piranha LB, Splatmaster, PG convert, Tippmann Pro-Lite, K-Framed Palmer's Paladin, T8 with TRG and milling work, SA-8, Gargantom, Custom Cocker
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#4 User is offline   mrfranswa 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 01:37 AM

Yeah, I need to put in NO PUMP MARKERS. While they are nice, it is a bit too limiting.

Wow, that ATS-10 looks obscure. Clips are 75$ each. That is just too expensive, and I doubt it fires better than an ion.

Oops, did I say ion? I meant tac1 hehe. Does anyone have a t68 pistol here? Can you mount a scope or reflex sight to it?
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#5 User is offline   thisissparta 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 05:06 AM

pumps are anything but limiting, try liberating. Seriously. you must try pump with something that isn't a Brass Eagle and you'll know what I'm talking about.

oh, trust me, the ATS's are much better than an Ion. just about anything is better than an Ion in my book.

yes you can, but if you want a pistol, the Zeus is hands down the best- Check out Agent Smith(a member here)'s mods to it- he cut a hole in the top of the springfeed and tapped the 12 gram changer for a Phantom pierce pin (the best ever) and made it a dropout- here's a video. For the money it's the best pistol out there. and it has rails to mount a red dot sight if you so choose.
The Spartan Armory: 98 Custom, Spyder e99 Avant, Tippmann A5, PMI-1, Splatmaster, SL-68 II, Classic Mag, Nel-Spot 007, WGP Sniper II (~95), DM5, SL-68II, Dye Reflex, Sideline Duckslide, Pro-Carbine, Piranha LB, Splatmaster, PG convert, Tippmann Pro-Lite, K-Framed Palmer's Paladin, T8 with TRG and milling work, SA-8, Gargantom, Custom Cocker
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#6 User is offline   M.O.P. 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 07:46 AM

just because specops says the longbow is great doesnt mean there isnt something better
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#7 User is offline   Explosive 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 08:45 AM

View Postthisissparta, on Jul 25 2008, 08:06 AM, said:

pumps are anything but limiting, try liberating. Seriously. you must try pump with something that isn't a Brass Eagle and you'll know what I'm talking about.

oh, trust me, the ATS's are much better than an Ion. just about anything is better than an Ion in my book.


I'm am an old school pump gun player gone to the way of the semi these days. Honestly there are days when I play pump and it's exhilarating over using semi's/electro's!

want to talk about limitations! anything with a clip is "limitations"!!! (not trying to stir up a conversation about clips/magazines vs. hoppers)

HONESTLY when I first started to read your post - a real nice, dust black SC Phantom came to mind for you. Then I saw NO PUMPS... :dry: :huh:

You shouldn't really get a "cheap" mindset into play when it comes to finding a marker that will work for you. I don't mean drop thousands into the most uber, #1 rated set up out there. I just mean, if there's something that will be far superior for $100-200 more, don't exclude it from your list if it's possible to squeeze out that extra money. Putting money into good gear is actually better and cheaper in the long run and you'll most likely have more fun.

The blackcell/longbow ION is nice. I fully rebuilt my ION with all new internals, blackcell body etc.
Made it Autococker threaded too, so I could switch out barrels between my markers.
I enjoy it. It' a nice set up, but got costly will all the ups I felt needed to make it a better marker.

My Tac One longbow/q-bow is my absolute favorite!!! I 100% enjoy it and rely on it to get the job done. ULE kit (beside the longbow kit parts) is the only upgrade installed in my Tac One. A lot cheaper than all the ION ups.

Tac 9's. Never owned one. XF use to be sponsored by Tiberius. Nice product, well built/high quality. I shot a teammate's T9 a few times and it did very well.
I have the pistol, but never purchased the rifle set up. Could be a good option for you!

don't know much on the other options you listed. :happy:

:ghillie:
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#8 User is offline   Matt 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 08:53 AM

View Postmrfranswa, on Jul 24 2008, 09:09 PM, said:

ION

1- Longbow Ion
The grandaddy of the clip fed sniper guns. No. If anything, it would be the Tac1 Longbow Ahh, so cool :ghillie: I still remember the first time I saw it and said I wanted one.

Pro's

- Best quality marker in this category, period.
- Can break down into an ion fairly easily

Con's

- Too expensive It is too expensive for an ion with a body kit and spring feed. For the price you are better off getting like a AGD marker and making your own custom stick feed.
- Tube clip
- Breaks down to an ion and not a pistol

Thoughts

I am pretty keen on the longbow ion. It gets rave reviews for it's low pressure and lack of sound. I just don't like the 450$ price tag I find on ebay. Is there a cheaper way to build it?

Honestly, I would not waste your money on an ion. For the price, you are much better getting something that would preform much much greater out of the box. All you are basically doing is getting a ion with a spring feed and a stock for 450.
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#9 User is offline   Piller 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 10:34 AM

If you're looking for a true Mil-Sim style clip fed the AT-10 lineup is really very nice. It blows Ions out of the water (which isn't really that hard to do). They also have different models, the AT-4, AT-16, and AT-85. It's a very intriguing Nelson-based pneumatic marker. It's the only marker of its valve system I know of that is still made today. They're very high quality and if you're into clip feeds, their system is about as nice as it gets. You only need one clip and the rest is fed from the foregrip hopper.

If you really want a longbow, spring for the the "real" longbow and get a Tac-One.

I think you would have some dissapointments with your other choices:

RAP4's T68 is really just a stacked tube blowback on the inside - not unlike a Spyder or Piranha. It's going to be loud not because of the bolt design but because it's a blowback working at high pressures. With their cheap materials, long term reliability is rather questionable.

Tiberius makes an interesting marker. It's based off the Automag blow forward design. They aren't really built to the same quality, but from what I've heard they don't have any outstanding problems. Air efficiency with 12 grams will be less than ideal.

As for the Ion, don't get fooled by Smart Part's notorious marketing. While lower pressure will help CO2 shootdown (which you can't use with an ION) and help make the marker quieter it isn't always what it's cracked up to be. SP has been selling their low pressure idea that it can make a marker shoot further and more accurately since the early 90s. Their explanation was that it "changed the pop of the ball". If you go with an Ion don't expect to get something high quality., they skimp on a lot of stuff. The feed neck, the electronics board, the barrel, and even the air tank ASA is all made with the hope that they are just inferior enough that you want to buy a new one.
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#10 User is offline   mrfranswa 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 12:56 PM

Hmm.

I seriously don't know. First off, I am definitely a pro-pump guy and love the concept, however I simply don't want one. I am replacing my primary marker. I already have a stock marker, and I am going to be playing remote. Yeah, I know you can get one of those fake powerletts, however I play many different positions over the day. I want a marker, which I can customize, and at the very worst, just break it back down to a standard hopper-fed marker.

Secondly, I don't know how a lot of you guys play. I have always found the 170rd hoppers have been far too much overkill even when I play more aggressively. Not only that, but the added weight throws me off a lot. I've done some calculations, and when I play well, I only use a maximum of 50 rds per game, (even in big scenario), because I always make my shots count.

As for what everyone is saying, the tac longbow is definitely an interesting marker. I like the quality, and how I can break it down for some airball at the end of the day. I also understand that you really get your money's worth in paintball, however as terrible as it sounds, I would probably be happier with a marker with lots of upgrades, about 5 boxes of paint, and scenario fees than a single marker I might use twice a month. I really love the reviews on the tac-1, but 500+$ for the marker, and then another 300 for the longbow is pretty astronomical for a bit more reliability, and quieter sound. Remember, I can get THREE t-68 pistol with all of the ups, e-trigger, and extra clips for ONE tac1 longbow with an extra clip.

As for the a-10, can you guys give me some more information about it? The only thing I am finding is hyper expensive obscure stuff.

I guess I'm saying, what is the best marker for the buck? And my cash limit is not 200$, I am shooting for under 400. Heck, for 400, I could get an X-7 with all of the trimmings :dry:


Hmm, on second thought, are there any pump designs which use a larger clip system? I just had a great idea. I'm going to research :)

This post has been edited by mrfranswa: 25 July 2008 - 12:58 PM

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#11 User is offline   Piller 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 01:30 PM

I play the same way, I go usually go through about 50 rounds a game. Rather than using clip systems I just use a small hopper. On my classic valved Automag I just use the old Viewloader 90 that came with the marker, and when I play pump I use an old 40 round WGP Ammo Box on my Palmer's Houndstooth. Occasionally I put on a stick feed.

AT-10s and AT-85s base models start around $375. Here is their website. They are rather expensive, but they are well built. Like Tac-Ones and all other Automags they are hand built markers that are tested for consistency before they leave the factory. They aren't the mass produced markers from large companies that get put in boxes, shipped worldwide, and sit until someone buys them hoping it isn't a lemon. Some of the best markers in paintball come from the smallest companies. It's just a matter of if you value a hand built, custom made, marker

Pretty much every clip fed marker has been listed - everything else I can't think of would be a tube fed pump marker. How important is it to have a magazine feed? You can put stick feeds on nearly every marker which can hold anywhere from 10-20 paintballs. You can even make your own out of PVC pipe.

You can get classic valved Automags for under $200 used. New ones are $250. It performs every bit as well as a Tac-One, but without the fancy body, intelliframe, and firepower. They aren't longbow ready either - but you can put a stick feed on them. I got mine for $50 and was really lucky. You mentioned you liked spool valves - well Automags were the original one. For $200 you're lucky to get out of blowbacks. Definitely don't go for an X-7! ...Talk about worst value for your money

This post has been edited by Piller: 25 July 2008 - 01:37 PM

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#12 User is offline   mrfranswa 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:09 PM

I really like those at-10's, expecially how they have 25 round clips over the standard 18-20 round clips I see everywhere. Believe it or not, but clip aside they are nearly the same as rap4's, however they feature a 25 round clip instead of 18. 70$ per clip is pretty expensive though. The only question I have is, are these clips spring fed, or do they feed off of the action of the marker kinda like a tippmann's cyclone?

I think I may just go with plan C, because each of the options have a downside. I have a lot of experience making my own custom markers, and I think this is a perfect time to continue with it. Basically, I really like the clip-fed systems out there, however I dislike rap4, or they are too expensive. I think it's time I make another hack. I have actually made a number of spring-fed clip markers, however they take forever to hand make, and are shoddy. I am thinking if I simply buy some of the rap4 clips, (or at-10 if they are not powered by the action of the marker), I can make a really great hackjob myself.

I just have a few questions:


With phantoms such as this one on ebay, (http://cgi.ebay.com/...QQcmdZViewItem), is the barrell affixed, or can you swap it for another one? If so, what threads does it use?

Does anyone know how the at-10 clips are powered?

Thanx! I hope to show u guys a really great marker soon!!!
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#13 User is offline   Z3R0 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:13 PM

The ATS magazines have a little chain/belt drive thing in there that is cycled by the movement of the bolt. Each shot moves the chain and pushes another ball up into the chamber.

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#14 User is offline   Piller 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 04:10 PM

They may look similar from the outside, but internally AT markers are extremely different than RAP4 markers. They work off of a pneumatic system rather than a blowback. Pneumatic systems will offer more consistent velocities, quieter operation, and much better air efficiency. The owners group website has some nice CAD pictures: http://www.angelfire...5/tsoog/cad.htm

The barrel on that Phantom is removable. All but the extremely old "Unibody" Phantoms have removable barrels. They don't really need an after market barrel though - the stock barrel is one of the nicest in the industry. They use their own Phantom threads. They have a wide range of air setups for both constant air and 12grams as well as stick feeds and direct feeds. Both of which can change at the field extremely quickly.
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#15 User is offline   Woodbender 

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 05:19 PM

An inexpensive, clip-fed marker. Hmmm....

The simplest option (for a cheap setup that is) would be to buy whatever paintball gun you desire then modify the feedneck to accept a ten-round tube. Magazines would then cost 15 cents apiece. If the marker is center-feed you would end up with something after the style of a BREN (that gun always annoyed me in Call of Duty).

If the clear tubes are too unsightly for you, I saw a post somewhere that had instructions on how to dye tubes. I don't remember where to find that thread but I do know that the process involved cooking the tubes in a pot filled with RIT dye.

This post has been edited by Woodbender: 25 July 2008 - 05:25 PM

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