Special Ops Paintball: Deadlywinds Fibur Barrel for the Phantom! - Special Ops Paintball

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Deadlywinds Fibur Barrel for the Phantom! Rate Topic: -----

#16 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 04:19 PM

View PostViherkogen, on Jun 10 2009, 03:23 PM, said:

Well, I will take a bent metal barrel over shattered CF any day. I can hack the barrel at the bend and be left with a shorter barrel that I can still use. I can't cut the jagged end of the CF and apply an even resin coat that would let me keep what was left. It doesn't really matter to me though. I do not look at a barrels abuse potential when I shop since I rarely dive or abuse any part of my gear(minus pants). I didn't mean for this to take away any from your preferred choice, nor do I use it to look down on CF any less than metal.

On paint size, I have bought every "respectable" brand at Wal-Mart and only JT tacticals Managed to fit nicely in the .685. I have bought some Xball from Dicks that floats at the bore but falls through with the lightest touch. I also had two local stores(one closed) that have a range of paint. One carried Draxxus and the other Karnage/Marbs. All paint of every grade had the same bore as the Xball mentioned and Marbs did the same in a .688 back(but varied from batches). I even tried the highest grade Evil at a distant field, and it sat "snug enough" in the back to prevent rollouts. I don't know if it is the 400-1000ft elevation, low humidity in storage, or manufacturer expecting me to do something. Even when I get the balls to swell slightly, It is because we set them out in 70-90*heat/ 80-100% humidity for the morning during play.


Hmm. Yeah, I typically use Marbs a lot off field, and on field I don't know what the heck that crap is, but I can usually match it pretty well with my Freak. It may very well by your elevation, that can effect paint size just as much as heat and humidity. My Freak kit goes all the way down to .682, as I just found out today, so there really isn't often a size of paint to small for me to match (minus the previously mentioned crappy walmart paint I bought last week that is too small for a .682, very interesting stuff, but I just want to shoot it all and never look at it again now XD).

I hardly look at abuse potential either, however many people just seem to think that CF is so weak you can snap it like a twig, and I know why because I have one. They are so light and thin looking that it looks like it could be broken like card board. Only thing is, it really can't. My point was only that it is just as durable, if not more than steel, meaning the idea of a steel barrel for more durability really is a moot point. Its a preference thing really, but these barrels really are just as tough as their metal counterparts, minus their ability to shatter like that under too much stress. Its a very interesting picture though.

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#17 User is offline   flyweightnate 

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 08:02 PM

The bore of a steel barrel will last longer than CF, as it is mush harder than the resin. That is the primary reason steel and Ti barrels are so prized. Also, they hone very nicely (even if it is very difficult) to a nice surface finish. Brass is the ultimate for surface finish, thus its desirability. Aluminum is a mere half-step above carbon fiber, but a good anodized layer will make it very durable as well.

Carbon fiber has two selling points: weight and sound signature. You have no other reason to pick it over a metal barrel. Metal barrels are advantageous due to durability and quality of the bore. A PPS Brass barrel is actually as quiet as a Stiffi, too, and wrapping a damper around most metal barrels will similarly reduce sound.
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#18 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 09:09 PM

Why would the bore exactly matter when you are just going to shove an aluminum (or in my case stainless steel) insert in there. The first part of the barrel is all that matters, as its the only part that really touches the paintball. The rest opens up very large, and the paintball hardly touches it. Even if it does, that bore is not for accuracy. For something like a Stiffi who's bore actually is made of carbon fiber, that would be a bigger issue, but this is not the case for the Fibur. That is what makes it nice.

So you are telling me that a brass barrel is really as quiet as a carbon fiber one? I find that hard to believe, but I have never shot one myself. I really wish I could see some science on this, or at least a half decent scientific explanation as to why. You also mention wrapping a damper around a barrel. What exactly would you wrap around a barrel to reduce sound (that would actually stay there), and even if so, wouldn't wrapping the barrel cover the porting (thus increasing the "pop" sound)? Or would you simply wrap half of the barrel?

I personally love my barrel, and can't seem to see why people hate on them so much, but I would really love if someone would straight up give me some serious points with good backing that could sway me to something better, I would really feel left in the dark if I was screwing myself on barrels.

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#19 User is offline   Viherkogen 

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Posted 10 June 2009 - 11:32 PM

Mann's Barrel Test

You weren't around for this sticky in the Barrels section, but it has shed light on a lot of things. In there they show that the Sly(full CF) is louder than a Palmer brass double ported barrel, both next to and behind the muzzle. I don't remember accuracy but most barrels beat the three carbon fiber barrels in there. That doesn't rule out your barrel though, especially since you already own inserts. Since you are using Freaks, and like you said, the second stage of a two piece barrel doesn't affect the ball, accuracy cannot be grouped with the CF but instead, with the freaks. You could almost say that you get the best of both worlds, but I won't go that far. Since I believe the point of this argument should focus on freak backs in available barrels, I would say this discussion should be limited not to material for accuracy, but for the second stage with porting. Considering that the second stage is mainly noise, I say it falls mostly in the realm of personal opinion. I'm going to refrain talking about comparing the palmers to the fibur tonight, but I do plan on discussing it tomorrow with the hopes of addressing the preferred barrels that solve accuracy, noise, cost, and rollouts (comparing both inserts and one piece).
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#20 User is offline   flyweightnate 

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 07:35 AM

The sound signature has to do with resonance. Aluminum resonates at a very high frequency. Ever drop a barrel and hear it 'ring'? Stainless resonates with a lower frequency, so it absorbs more of the high-pitched sound. Brass, even better. It has a nice low resonance, which is why so many instruments are made of brass- it has a 'warm' sound. If you want to reduce this further, you take something like rubber bands or felt and secure it firmly to a few spots on the barrel to absorb some of the vibrations. It's a bit trivial, but no more trivial than the difference between carbon fiber and stainless steel.

Porting helps a lot too. The Palmer's barrels are ported very appropriately- not too much, but not too little, so it tends to be very quiet. Similar situation with most good barrels. Lapcos are designed for accuracy, not sound reduction, so they're going to be loud by comparison.
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#21 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 12:25 PM

Mann's Test is a very good scientific test, thanks Viherkogen, but at the same time I don't exactly see where it helps the case of the brass barrel. This is for a few reasons.

First thing is first, sound signature. The PPS brass definitely beats a Carbon Fiber Sly on sound signature from both angles in the test, however by a fairly small margin. The PPS brass is less than one dB quieter than a Sly. Not much of a big difference, you probably wouldn't notice it with your naked ear. Both barrels together, however, destroy much of the competition on the board. This is very nice for both barrels, but when it comes down to it, sound signature is only one important quality for a barrel to have.

Now, for the accuracy test. Unfortunately the PPS Brass doesn't even have a set of listed shot groupings in the regular accuracy section. Not sure if it was removed, or if the section never got completed, but its unfortunate. Being Freak Based, to understand the Fibur you must look to the Freak insert accuracy test. Now, they don't have pictures for Stainless Steel inserts, but they do have pictures for the aluminum inserts in the plain accuracy test, and there those inserts shot fairly well. It had a few off curved balls for the lower grade Rec Sport paint, but what do you expect trying to get away with cheapo-depot paint? They shoot the X-ball and Marbs like a charm, not quite as accurate as the TI Longbow barrel, but they still hold up against most barrels. Another thing to notice is that under a calibrated caliper, the Stainless Steel barrels vary much less when recording the difference between given and actual bore size. This is likely due to the fact that stainless steel retains its size between hot and cold temperatures better than aluminum. This could possibly create a slight change in accuracy, though I do not think it would mean much as paint itself reacts to temperature as well. A large change in temperature could show a difference in results in the accuracy test section when comparing stainless and aluminum freak inserts.

One thing you should really check out is the accuracy test after a break. Many barrels outright fail in this category. Paint in the barrel is definitely a serious issue, even for the PPS Brass. For being such a nice barrel as you claim, that shot grouping is pretty bad inaccuracy after a break section. Not the worst, as some completely missed the target all together, but still its not very good. It almost makes me scared to see what the regular accuracy must really look like, for that grouping doesn't give me good hopes. The carbon fiber barrels themselves are some terrible barrels after a break as well, they just don't live up to their accuracy expectations. The stainless steel freak inserts, however, are still shooting solid gold.

Let me tell you a short story. There was once a farmer that got tired of dirt getting stuck on his plow. He wanted a system that would actually clean his plow constantly while he worked with it. For his day, this seemed like some sort of mystery magic machine of the future, but this was no average farmer, this one was much more ambitious. It doesn't hurt that he was a blacksmith as well. He knew stainless steel had amazing self cleaning properties, so he decided to make a plow blade entirely of stainless steel. Turns out he was on to something, as the company he founded now sells some of the best farm equipment made here in America. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out stainless steel, as the farmer/blacksmith John Deere figured it out and changed the way the world farmed forever.

Moral of the story, when I heard Freak was stopping the production of Stainless Steel inserts 3 years ago, I scrounged every bit of money I had on me at the time to get my hands on one of these puppies before they were gone, and for good reason. It seems now SP actually brought the stainless steel inserts back into production. I wonder why that is, after seeing Mann's Barrel Test. These things are beauties. If you break a ball, as long as you have a good paint to bore match (as you should with a Freak), the bores will clean themselves after a few shots (for the most part). Accuracy will come back quickly, and you won't be ruined over a barrel break, or be forced to swab or squeegee it mid game (though it wouldn't matter either way for the Fibur, as it is made so well that you can actually swab its inside if you needed to XD). Even though I probably won't chop many balls on an Automag with Lvl10 bolt (you can put your finger or even a rolled up dollar bill in the feed and it won't hurt either one), and probably not so much on a Phantom as well (being a pump gives it less chance to straight up chop), the possibility still remains, but when it happens to me, I will be shooting clear in a few shots and ready for action again.

Now how about weight? Yeah, I almost don't even have to mention this one, its obvious. According to the Deadlywind website, the Fibur barrel weighs on average 46 grams without an insert. That means the whole barrel weighs just a little more than one stainless steel insert. Coming in at a mere 89 grams (and that is using the heaviest SS insert on the list), this barrel is on the very light side of barrels on the list. It may not be the absolute lightest (as the Stiffi Switch beats it at 67 grams at heaviest), it is definitely lighter than most of the barrels on Mann's list, including the PPS Brass which weighs 2.75x the weight of my full set up. Another thing to take into consideration is the positioning of the weight on my barrel. The thread end of the Fibur is heavier due to the Stainless Steel insert, making the back of the barrel contain about 75% of the barrels weight. This makes it feel more like the weight is on the marker, instead of the barrel or the front of the barrel. The front of the Fibur has nothing to weigh the front end of the marker down, allowing aiming to be a breeze.

That being said, by suggesting I get a PPS Brass you are recommending I buy a barrel that almost triples the weight of the barrel I prefer, won't hold up even close to as well after a break as the barrel I prefer, may or may not be close to as accurate as the barrel I prefer (and I surely won't have much option for bore match with a single sized barrel), and what for? For >1dB of sound signature reduced? Unless you are suggesting that I should get a PPS Brass, and get it bored for Freak inserts, you are a nutter. Even then, while it would be >1dB quieter and just as accurate, it would still be 2.75x the weight of the Fibur. Once you were to get your hands on a PPS Brass and pay shipping and labor to have it bored for Freak inserts (if this is even possible), you would probably have just spent just as much, if not more than you would have just buying a Fibur outright, already bored for the freaks, and ready to use as soon as it reaches your house in a cute little box with free Deadlywind stickers to slap all over your paintball equipment cases and bedroom to remind you of your excellent purchase from Deadlywind.

Mann's Barrel Test may have been before my recent return to paintball, but it still hasn't proved a thing against my long held theory that the Deadlwind Fibur is a wonderful barrel that balances some of the best qualities people look for in a paintball barrel. It may not be "THE BEST" in every category, but is very balanced and competes well with "THE BEST" in each category (while it definitely ties for gold in after break accuracy). All too many barrels are one sided deals. One is accurate, but a break destroys that, its heavy, and its loud. One barrel is super quiet, but it is way heavy for a barrel, and doesn't do so hot on the accuracy test. The possibilities go on, but in EVERY single test Mann's team did, carbon fiber has proven to greatly reduce sound signature and barrel weight, while stainless steel freak inserts provide absolutely beautiful accuracy before and after a break. That being said, I too would not go as far as to say I am getting the best of both worlds. What I am getting is a wonderful balance of performance in ALL worlds.

So when it comes down to what you are hoping to discuss, Viherkogen: "preferred barrels that solve accuracy, noise, cost, and rollouts", I don't quite see what kind of argument you could produce to show the Fibur would not fare well in these categories. Accuracy (before and after a break) and sound signature have already been proven effective by Mann's Barrel Test. Rollouts are not as much of a concern, as the Freak is a barrel kit (with a very large selection of bore sizes at that). Even if the Freak did start having trouble with rollouts on the Phantom for some reason, this could be easily fixed with $6 ball detents or an ASP Phantom Detent Modification. Either of these should fix the Phantom rollout issue no matter what sized bore your barrel is. Cost is about the only category you could argue the Fibur cannot compete in, as it requires a full freak kit on top of the $90 barrel to make it work its magic, however for someone like me that is not and has not had an issue with the cost, and has already purchased a full stainless steel freak insert kit, this barrel is definitely worth it.

As a side note, I did realize one funny thing about my insert kit. It appears to be incomplete to today's standards. Apparently they now make an even smaller size, .679", which I do not have. When I purchased my Freak insert kit, the smallest bore size was .682". Perhaps with the .679" insert (in stainless steel of coarse), I could even get a perfect bore match for that crappy Wal-Mart paint I bought last week that I was talking about. Not that it really matters a whole lot, I shot that crap paint out of the .682" just yesterday, and with the exception of a few goofy balls it put balls on top of balls from 50-70 feet away. I remember when I first got this barrel, I decided to show it off to my friend who had just bought some other high end barrel kit, and he almost cried when I put 6 balls right on top of each other from 80 feet away onto a >2" diameter fence post. The 7th shot missed due to human error in aiming (I am known to twitch a little under pressure), and I quickly adjusted my aim to put the 8th ball right on top of the first 6. On a vice, it would have put 8/8 on that thin steel fence post exactly where it was aiming. I don't know how much I can stress to you, this is an absolutely fantastic product whether you like to admit it or not. The science is all right in front of your eyes.

This post has been edited by NinjaoftheNight79: 11 June 2009 - 12:45 PM


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#22 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 11 June 2009 - 08:49 PM

I actually had to use my .679 insert once. I was the only one at the event who could shoot worth a darn. I had an earlier Deadlywind Wisper / Fibur barrel in Cocker threads. I wasn't entirely a fan because the Freak system's accuracy isn't quite as good as some newer barrels, and the Fibur barrel still shouldn't be swabbed (fibers get caught in the ports) even though they say it can be. While it doesn't make a difference on a pump, on a semi a barrel can actually be too light. The barrel tends to help dampen recoil and keep the marker from throwing itself around as much, which affects shot to shot consistency. I still keep a Freak system as backup in case I run into some really oddball paint size that my Lapco doesn't cover, just not a Deadlywind Fibur; a Freak back is still cheaper than a whole barrel if I need to change thread types.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 11 June 2009 - 08:51 PM


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#23 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 12 June 2009 - 10:09 AM

I can see where that may be a concern on a semi, however I haven't really seemed to have this issue. Perhaps this happens more at higher rates of fire that are naturally inaccurate already, as my mag doesn't exactly have a favorably walkable trigger pull? Or perhaps its because its on an Automag, that sucker has next to no recoil anyhow being a very well designed blow forward.

All I know is I am having a blast with this barrel myself. If nobody else likes it, meh, what can I do about it?

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#24 User is offline   flyweightnate 

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:03 PM

Ever try a Lapco? Or a BOA? Or PPS Brass? You'll be impressed. Even a CP barrel is pretty nice.

Just saying, the Fibur barrel is a lot of hype. Plenty of barrels shoot similarly well.
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