Special Ops Paintball: What does it mean to be unamerican? - Special Ops Paintball

Jump to content


  • (4 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

What does it mean to be unamerican? Rate Topic: -----

#31 User is offline   DJ Timid 

  • Ninjas dance better than pirates...
  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 47
  • Joined: 17-May 06
  • Location:Littleton, CO
  • Brigade Name:DJ Timid

Posted 05 October 2007 - 12:03 AM

Loosely translated, because I'm doing it from memory:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
--Voltaire, Evelyn Beatrice Hall (yeah, I know it's a pen name.)

I've found this discussion to be exceptionally informed and well-thought.

Randi Rhodes '08
0

#32 User is offline   Philipp122 

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 1,140
  • Joined: 10-November 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Georgia
  • Brigade Name:Philipp122

Posted 05 October 2007 - 04:36 AM

View PostDJ Timid, on Oct 5 2007, 03:03 AM, said:

Loosely translated, because I'm doing it from memory:
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
--Voltaire, Evelyn Beatrice Hall (yeah, I know it's a pen name.)

I've found this discussion to be exceptionally informed and well-thought.


Dude that quote is awesome. Wish everyone thought like that :P.
0

#33 User is offline   Puzuma 

  • That is not dead which can eternal lie,
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrators
  • Posts: 14,381
  • Joined: 22-September 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London ON, Canada
  • Brigade Name:Puzuma

Posted 05 October 2007 - 05:24 AM

Before you can understand what un-American is you need to understand what American is. Frankly I think a lot of you don;t know what American is and my being Canadian probably makes me the lest qualified to try to explain it.

The USA was founded on certain ideals: Everyone is equal, everyone is free, every one deserves respect. Basically another persons opinions, beliefs, sexuality and views have the same merit as your own, they have the right and ability to express themselves in anyway they choose (within the limits of the laws). Respect falls back to equality and freedom. You can counter their opinions/views as long as you don not resort to hateful comments or illegal acts.

Who is un-American? Based on the ideals that your nations was founded on, everyone in the USA. While the legality of Mexican workers is a different subject, how many people do you know that show them little to no respect, treat them as inferiors, and (want to)restrict their freedoms? How many people do you know that do the same with gays or members of a different religion?
Posted Image
That is not dead which can eternal lie,And with strange aeons even death may die.
0

#34 User is offline   PhunkyMunky 

  • Git'er Done!!
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 158
  • Joined: 29-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Federal Way, Washington
  • Brigade Name:Gotta change this

Posted 05 October 2007 - 06:11 AM

View PostPuzuma, on Oct 5 2007, 05:24 AM, said:

Before you can understand what un-American is you need to understand what American is. Frankly I think a lot of you don;t know what American is and my being Canadian probably makes me the lest qualified to try to explain it.

The USA was founded on certain ideals: Everyone is equal, everyone is free, every one deserves respect. Basically another persons opinions, beliefs, sexuality and views have the same merit as your own, they have the right and ability to express themselves in anyway they choose (within the limits of the laws). Respect falls back to equality and freedom. You can counter their opinions/views as long as you don not resort to hateful comments or illegal acts.

Who is un-American? Based on the ideals that your nations was founded on, everyone in the USA. While the legality of Mexican workers is a different subject, how many people do you know that show them little to no respect, treat them as inferiors, and (want to)restrict their freedoms? How many people do you know that do the same with HAPPY SKIPPING JOYFUL PERSONs or members of a different religion?


Good point Puz. I have to agree, in many, many, many, ways these ideals have fallen away. It's sad to see, really. However, illegal Immigrants are not American, in other words, they didn't go through due process like most every one else (and 3/4 of my family, the other 1/4 were here before columbus) and so there for have no rights. I'm NOT pointing out any specific nationality here, because I don't really care if you're from Mexico or mars, there's a process to go through. I do however belive, reguardless how agitating it is, that they DO have some basic HUMAN rights due to them. That means that even if they are here illegaly, they shouldn't have to put up with prejudice. They may not be legal Americans, but they shouldn't have to deal with being treated as less than human. I also belive that like any other country, they should learn our national language in order to become a citizen here. Not the other way around (where in order for them to live here I have to learn Swahilli, or whatever). I should ALSO not have to put up with being told I'm wrong for not being Muslem. I've had that alot lately with my job. Guess there's quite a few where I work (these are residents, not employees). How about free speach for an Illegal Alian? Some random guy from Ukrain who snuck into the U.S. has more right than I do to speak about American Issues? Has more value in his opinion? How about that incident where Mexian Illegal Immigrants took the Flag off the post office (where was that....San Diego?), and they aren't hit hard for that because they're Mexican? But if I did that I'd be in prison.....Hmmm Where's my respect? They can come to my country and insult it, and therefore insult me? And that's ok. Right? Honestly, I don't belive that if I went to Canada and insulted Canada that I'd be allowed to stay long. If I had gone there and took YOUR Flag from the top of a government bulding, I'd just be told to "go away". In my book, that's an act of war, you just took over a U.S. Post. In my book, that person should be shot, if not captured as a POW. In America, an Illegal immigrant has more right than I do. They also get their government grants to buy a house, build a business, every thing they need. And yet most of us struggle a lifetime and get nothing. I know a Bosnian family that came here (legally) and were immediately given all the money (no payback) to start a construction business, buy a house, and a car. They didn't even have to ask. Where's the equality in that? Where is Uncle Sam when I need him? I don't really care about what I can get free. Hard work never hurt anyone (unless you're a cripple). However, I'd like a little help getting my family a decent place to live. Won't happen though. I'll do it all by myself. And I won't whine about it. The point I'm making is that there are MANY issues that cause people to wonder, what IS it to be AMERICAN these days? Seems to me our values as a Nation are getting very blurry. People don't stand behind our troops anymore. They only care that we're "bullying another country", that wars are useless waste, and we should NEVER fight. For anything, maybe a little bit exadurated but the point remains.

I guess the question really is what is it to be American? Define that answer before you say someone is UN-American. (rant not directed at anyone in particular)
0

#35 User is offline   PhunkyMunky 

  • Git'er Done!!
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 158
  • Joined: 29-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Federal Way, Washington
  • Brigade Name:Gotta change this

Posted 05 October 2007 - 06:30 AM

View Postsenses fail, on Oct 4 2007, 02:08 PM, said:

i dont support our government, am i unamerican?

thats a tough one, nothing against democracy or anything, but i DO have freedom of speech.

i just think its all corrupt. and i know for a fact the government was behind 9/11. PM me if youd like to argue about that, ive got some videos you need to watch if you still think it wasnt the government. lets not discuss that here though.

i think the only way to be truely unamerican is to hate america. i love my country, and i support our troops but i dont approve of the government.


I'm guessing that you don't hate the GOVERNMENT as an institution, but maybe you you disapprove of the PEOPLE RUNNING it, am I correct? I'm not argueing your opinion, just trying for clarification.
0

#36 User is offline   anjin3515 

  • Anjin
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 388
  • Joined: 05-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Naperville, Illinois
  • Brigade Name:ANJIN3515

Posted 05 October 2007 - 06:33 AM

View PostPuzuma, on Oct 5 2007, 07:24 AM, said:

Before you can understand what un-American is you need to understand what American is. Frankly I think a lot of you don;t know what American is and my being Canadian probably makes me the lest qualified to try to explain it.

The USA was founded on certain ideals: Everyone is equal, everyone is free, every one deserves respect. Basically another persons opinions, beliefs, sexuality and views have the same merit as your own, they have the right and ability to express themselves in anyway they choose (within the limits of the laws). Respect falls back to equality and freedom. You can counter their opinions/views as long as you don not resort to hateful comments or illegal acts.

Who is un-American? Based on the ideals that your nations was founded on, everyone in the USA. While the legality of Mexican workers is a different subject, how many people do you know that show them little to no respect, treat them as inferiors, and (want to)restrict their freedoms? How many people do you know that do the same with HAPPY SKIPPING JOYFUL PERSONs or members of a different religion?


Oh I cant believe I am going to post this...as the LAST person I want to tangle with is Puz.....

However there is one thing you said that I disagree with.
"While the legality of Mexican workers is a different subject, how many people do you know that show them little to no respect, treat them as inferiors, and (want to)restrict their freedoms?"

I have no problem with immigrants to the USA....it is in many ways what makes this place somewhere special. The blending of all the cultures is something great.
BUT...I do have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants. To me it comes down to one thing....they broke the law in how they entered the country. If anyone wants to be part of America I welcome them with open arms....as long as they do it within the law.

The part of your statement where I disagree is ... "and (want to)restrict their freedoms?"

Its not that I want to restrict anyones freedom....but since they are here illegally they are not afforded the same "freedoms" as a citizen. They are in fact, under current U.S. law... criminals...plain and simple they broke the law. Why should an illegal criminal be afforded the same rights,privileges and freedoms as someone who is a legal citizen??
On a basic human level, I of course want them to have the best life, the opportunities to better themselves and their families. But from a political, security, country standpoint....they have no "freedoms" here as they are not citizens. Enter the country via legal means and you should have every "freedom" afforded to you.

With citizenship comes responsibility to your country, with that responsibility comes the benefits and freedoms that are given.
0

#37 User is offline   PhunkyMunky 

  • Git'er Done!!
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 158
  • Joined: 29-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Federal Way, Washington
  • Brigade Name:Gotta change this

Posted 05 October 2007 - 06:36 AM

^^^ Better put than the point I made.
0

#38 User is offline   Puzuma 

  • That is not dead which can eternal lie,
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Administrators
  • Posts: 14,381
  • Joined: 22-September 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London ON, Canada
  • Brigade Name:Puzuma

Posted 05 October 2007 - 06:57 AM

As I said the legality is a separate issue. A very large quantity of Americans FAIL to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. The same concept can be applied to Muslims. Many of you fail to make a distinction between Muslims in general and the Radical Jihadists. Muslim=terrorist.

More often than not laws and ideals butt heads. How they came here, legally or illegally, is NOT the issue of this thread.

Based on the IDEALS of how the nation was founded they all deserve the same respect, equality and freedom. Do I think they've EARNED it? That's a different topic but is closely related.
Posted Image
That is not dead which can eternal lie,And with strange aeons even death may die.
0

#39 User is offline   Veritech Squad 

  • Come at me bro.
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 915
  • Joined: 07-December 05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Everywhere And Nowhere. Also; Tucson, AZ.

Posted 05 October 2007 - 07:25 AM

View Postike123, on Oct 4 2007, 10:32 PM, said:

View PostTyler {332nd} Ham, on Oct 4 2007, 07:21 PM, said:

Posted Image

end of story.


See, this is why he asked the question. Give some reasons. In fact, by most peoples definition here, Hilary is pretty American. She voices her opinions. just because you are strongly against them does NOT make her unamerican. Liberals are also NOT unamerican. I say this becuase i know the demographic here and many of you think that.

ANYBODY wanting to live in America that is not doing anything to destroy it, and is doing what they think they need to do to make it a better place to live is American. Anybody who is the opposite of that is unamerican.

He never said anything about liberals, just Hillary. You could say she's unAmerican because she wants to get rid of the second ammendment, and probably a few other rights we have too.
Wretched is the sound of my voice.

IN MY DROPSHIP ZIGZAGS STAY LIT
0

#40 User is offline   PhunkyMunky 

  • Git'er Done!!
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 158
  • Joined: 29-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Federal Way, Washington
  • Brigade Name:Gotta change this

Posted 05 October 2007 - 07:36 AM

You're right, and I did get off target a bit and apologize. I don't think the guys trying to convert me were Radical Fundementalists, though they may have been. I didn't bother to ask. I do say, most Muslims I've met have been the peaceful sort. But that's off subject.

I get bent out of shape when I see what America is SUPPOSED to be, and what it really is. Don't get me wrong, now. I still think this is a great Nation. It just needs a solid, unified direction, instead of a bazillion different selfish agendas that do nothing for the good of the whole. Take the Iraq war for example. There are many who belive it's wrong. Fine. I can deal with that. But they AREN'T thinking of the fact that we are keeping a huge ammount of terrorists occupied somewhere else, and not attacking us here. They're not thinking of what it would be like for full blown firefights happening in their cities. They're just thinking "those poor people" or what ever their personal view is. This is hurting America as a whole. I think rather than think of it in "we need out NOW" they should maybe concider, "how can we keep America from having to fight on our own soil, while minimizing the effect on our population and economy, AND get all this done soon so it's not drug out so long." I'm not talking about this as political point. I'm talking about unity INSPITE of diversity. I absolutely LOVE our diversity here. But everything is in so many directions, and nothing pulling in just one. America is ABOUT this diversity, and the fact that we ALL have equal say here, but there SHOULD be a solidified direction too.

Unfourtunately, there's all this infighting about race, well, any dang thing really. A cop patrols a primarily Black neighborhood and arrests a black car thief. Good! He did his job, but now the car thief, and any witnesses say he's a racist for doing so. Why? It's stupid. Why, after over 200 years do we STILL have this issue? Just last night I towed a car from a fire lane. The irate woman stated she was going to call the NAACP and have them "take care of us". Why? I did my job. She lives in a primarily black neighborhood, I did not know who the owner of the car was, and so therefore did not know her race, and chances are because of the population of the neighborhood, the owner could be black. I didn't really care about her race. That's not an issue to me. The car didn't belong in the fire lane, nothing racist about it. But it's here. That horrable r word. In SEATTLE of all places!! C'mon!! It's not Missisippi!! And even if it were, it's not right. And to me, THAT's unamerican!

If we got rid of the issue of race, we could move on. That would be one (only one) way to celebrate what's American. Political factions, religion, culture, everything clashes because of intolorance. That's unamerican. People just need to accept the fact that joe over there thinks differently, has a valuable opinion, has the right to express it (with in reason, meaning he DOESN'T have the right to beat his view into you), and if you don't like it, you have the right to disagree. Take all this diversity and put it to good use.

As for Hillary, or ANYONE (not just her) who thinks that we should have our rights taken away, the 2nd amendment, freedom of speech, anything in the constitution, IS unamerican. They do NOT have the right to do that (government). The PEOPLE created this Nation, the Government is ENTRUSTED to run it, and the PEOPLE have the right to decide who runs it. Does this mean that because I dislike Hillary (and I do, but that's irrelevant) that she should not be voted in? No, because I may not be in the majority. I will fight tooth and nail to keep our Constitution the way it is.

This post has been edited by PhunkyMunky: 05 October 2007 - 07:44 AM

0

#41 User is offline   anjin3515 

  • Anjin
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 388
  • Joined: 05-August 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Naperville, Illinois
  • Brigade Name:ANJIN3515

Posted 05 October 2007 - 07:44 AM

View PostPuzuma, on Oct 5 2007, 08:57 AM, said:

As I said the legality is a separate issue. A very large quantity of Americans FAIL to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. The same concept can be applied to Muslims. Many of you fail to make a distinction between Muslims in general and the Radical Jihadists. Muslim=terrorist.

More often than not laws and ideals butt heads. How they came here, legally or illegally, is NOT the issue of this thread.

Based on the IDEALS of how the nation was founded they all deserve the same respect, equality and freedom. Do I think they've EARNED it? That's a different topic but is closely related.



Yeah sorry to veer it off into the separate...but closely related topic.

I feel bad for anyone..American or not....that "fails to make a distinction between Muslims in general and the Radical Jihadists. Muslim=terrorist. "
You have to treat people on an one on one basis...get to know them for who they are.


To be an American....thats a hard question.
0

#42 User is offline   PhunkyMunky 

  • Git'er Done!!
  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 158
  • Joined: 29-March 06
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Federal Way, Washington
  • Brigade Name:Gotta change this

Posted 05 October 2007 - 08:18 AM

Coming back to this thing with hillary, I wouldn't mind if she was wanting to have better gun CONTROL laws. I'd be fine (encourage even) if she decided that new gun owners had to go through a gun owners course before being able to buy a gun. The course should include gun safety, how to actually hit what you're shooting at, and home and self defence courses. Too many people own guns and know next to nothing about them, and don't respect them. Unfourtunately, this is the primary cause of most gun accidents. I know this has nothing specifically to do with being unamerican, but it would certainly change my opinion of Hillary(who I believe to be unamerican for wanting to change the Constitution) if this was what she wanted to do.
0

#43 Guest_SaltandVinegar_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 05 October 2007 - 04:37 PM

View PostPuzuma, on Oct 5 2007, 07:57 AM, said:

As I said the legality is a separate issue. A very large quantity of Americans FAIL to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. The same concept can be applied to Muslims. Many of you fail to make a distinction between Muslims in general and the Radical Jihadists. Muslim=terrorist.

More often than not laws and ideals butt heads. How they came here, legally or illegally, is NOT the issue of this thread.

Based on the IDEALS of how the nation was founded they all deserve the same respect, equality and freedom. Do I think they've EARNED it? That's a different topic but is closely related.


Okay, honestly, where do you get off with "large quantities" Puz? Can I see your survey? While I agree with you, many of us don't make that distinction, at least on this forum, you have to realize that there would be a little bit of resentment for Middle Easterners and Muslims. We had a tragedy and we're fighting a war cause of it. I don't see how that couldn't happen. As for the immigration, I don't quite understand what you mean by making the "distinction between legal and illegal" immigrants. I'm pretty sure most of us know the difference. I have a little bit of resentment for them cause of some of the problems they cause to my town, that just comes from what they do. I have know idea if they are illegal or legal. We had a raid here a while ago on a meat plant here, and they deported 100 illegal immigrants working there. How they go the jobs were illegal. They took someone's identity to get the job. Do you think it is right for someone's identity to be stolen? Even for a job? Another question is why do they come here illegally? Many come for jobs. But the main problem with that is many bring with them crime, disease, and drugs into our country. Is it wrong to try and stop that from entering our country?
0

#44 User is offline   ike123 

  • Cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 349
  • Joined: 23-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nutty Northside, CA
  • Brigade Name:ike

Posted 05 October 2007 - 05:53 PM

View PostVeritech Squad, on Oct 5 2007, 07:25 AM, said:

View Postike123, on Oct 4 2007, 10:32 PM, said:

View PostTyler {332nd} Ham, on Oct 4 2007, 07:21 PM, said:

Posted Image

end of story.


See, this is why he asked the question. Give some reasons. In fact, by most peoples definition here, Hilary is pretty American. She voices her opinions. just because you are strongly against them does NOT make her unamerican. Liberals are also NOT unamerican. I say this becuase i know the demographic here and many of you think that.

ANYBODY wanting to live in America that is not doing anything to destroy it, and is doing what they think they need to do to make it a better place to live is American. Anybody who is the opposite of that is unamerican.

He never said anything about liberals, just Hillary. You could say she's unAmerican because she wants to get rid of the second ammendment, and probably a few other rights we have too.



I know he didn't say anything about liberals. Hence the sentence that follows it.

And she doesn't want to get rif of the 2nd Amendment. You can't remove Amendments anyway. There are 2 views of it. It is not worded very clearly. You could interpret it as saying as you have the right to bear arms in a militia. The modern day militia is the National Gaurd. So she wants only the National Guard to be able to carry weapons. Frankly, she is as American as you or me.

And by "a better place to live" I meant in that persons defintion of a better place. We mix views and opinions to make decisions here. So we mix everyone's view of a better place to make America.
Paintball isn't my hobby, it's my lifestyle. Go hard or go home.
0

#45 User is offline   ike123 

  • Cha togar m' fhearg gun dìoladh
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 349
  • Joined: 23-May 07
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Nutty Northside, CA
  • Brigade Name:ike

Posted 05 October 2007 - 05:59 PM

View PostSaltandVinegar, on Oct 5 2007, 04:37 PM, said:

View PostPuzuma, on Oct 5 2007, 07:57 AM, said:

As I said the legality is a separate issue. A very large quantity of Americans FAIL to make a distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. The same concept can be applied to Muslims. Many of you fail to make a distinction between Muslims in general and the Radical Jihadists. Muslim=terrorist.

More often than not laws and ideals butt heads. How they came here, legally or illegally, is NOT the issue of this thread.

Based on the IDEALS of how the nation was founded they all deserve the same respect, equality and freedom. Do I think they've EARNED it? That's a different topic but is closely related.


Okay, honestly, where do you get off with "large quantities" Puz? Can I see your survey? While I agree with you, many of us don't make that distinction, at least on this forum, you have to realize that there would be a little bit of resentment for Middle Easterners and Muslims. We had a tragedy and we're fighting a war cause of it. I don't see how that couldn't happen. As for the immigration, I don't quite understand what you mean by making the "distinction between legal and illegal" immigrants. I'm pretty sure most of us know the difference. I have a little bit of resentment for them cause of some of the problems they cause to my town, that just comes from what they do. I have know idea if they are illegal or legal. We had a raid here a while ago on a meat plant here, and they deported 100 illegal immigrants working there. How they go the jobs were illegal. They took someone's identity to get the job. Do you think it is right for someone's identity to be stolen? Even for a job? Another question is why do they come here illegally? Many come for jobs. But the main problem with that is many bring with them crime, disease, and drugs into our country. Is it wrong to try and stop that from entering our country?


He means that many people looking at a hispanic person working in a field thinks they are illegal.

And you are generalizing ALL illegals as criminals (besides the fact that they are illegal of course). You generalize them to a category where only a few of them truly fit into. They come here to get a job, to feed their families. MOST of them do. A few of them give the them all a bad name. Similar to whiny/POOP SHOOTER/cheating speedballers giving them all a bad name.

Sorry for the double post. :happy:

This post has been edited by ike123: 05 October 2007 - 05:59 PM

Paintball isn't my hobby, it's my lifestyle. Go hard or go home.
0

Share this topic:


  • (4 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users