Special Ops Paintball: A question of fairness... - Special Ops Paintball

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A question of fairness... Rate Topic: ****- 1 Votes

#61 User is offline   EpShot 

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 08:24 PM

View Postghost93, on Dec 1 2008, 08:29 PM, said:

View PostEpShot, on Dec 1 2008, 08:27 PM, said:

why not just limit paint?
something like 200 rounds per person.

That would work too. As long as it was for everybody.


thats what i 'm thinking(was going to post more but had meeting)
This more than anything would define "milsim". Looks are just that, looks.
Various militaries invented the concept of victory through overwhelming firepower a long time ago. However they have for the most part always been limited by how much a soldier could reasonably carry with them over long periods of engagement. in Iraq the average soldier only carries something like 200rnds (I know this various greatly and i'm sure many can give specifics. Point is the average Paintballer carries roughly that many in their hopper.

By limiting the number of rounds anybody can still shoot just as fast as they like, but certain paradigms of speedball such as laning are likely to be much less effective. Also burning through 80 rounds to get just one guy out may not seem quite as beneficial compared to maneuvering to get a better shot. Point is NO ONE is hurt by this rule except those that can't aim or maneuver which is neither speed ball nor woods.
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#62 User is offline   Zach_attack 

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:28 PM

Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.

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#63 User is offline   Ethrealwolf 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 03:43 AM

View PostZach_attack, on Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.


which basically circles it around to a flat BPS cap. 13-15, somewhere in there. Tag each marker once, then tag them again at random over the course of the day. over the ROF cap = disqualification.
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#64 User is offline   Zach_attack 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:19 AM

View PostEthrealwolf, on Dec 2 2008, 02:43 AM, said:

View PostZach_attack, on Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.


which basically circles it around to a flat BPS cap. 13-15, somewhere in there. Tag each marker once, then tag them again at random over the course of the day. over the ROF cap = disqualification.

Exactly. It is truely the only logical thing to do. BPS cap can apply to everyone. Limiting "Speedball" markers and "Woodsball" markers is just stupid. Ive used a 98 on a speedball field and a PMR on a woodsball field. Done fine with both markers in both scenarios. Ive seen some Mech markers that can rip with the high end electros so if they are capable of it there is no reason to limit either marker other than on BPS.

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 11:23 AM

The fields we're playing are letting us BYOP. Hollywood Sports Park let us BYOP at the first event. SC Village is apparently building a field for the next event. But if they don't finish in time we might use the Beruit field. Sorry if some of you are not familiar with the field, but it's the perfect field for the game.
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#66 User is offline   Splatter 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:08 PM

View PostZach_attack, on Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.


The WTL tournaments are BYOP, so this idea is moot. Limiting paint will have little effect on the field's income.

My question is, why do players want to be able to shoot 24+ BPS? I play SPPL (our team was second in the nation in our division this year), and I have a "speedball" gun - yes, I call it a gun - that says it will shoot 30+ BPS. I don't shoot that fast, and I can just barely move my fingers fast enough to make it start ramping in the first place, let alone keep it ramping for more than a half-second or so when I'm screwing around with it. I really only got it because it looks cool.

The most important point about limiting rates of fire is not so much about the "fairness" of high rates of fire. It is a very valid safety issue. Our masks are designed to take a 300 fps hit to the lens and frame. Multiple hits in the same spot will increase stress on that spot exponentially. That means that each hit does not just add the same amount of damage as the previous one - it actually multiplies the stress, and a mask that is designed for paintball can fail, or even be forced out of position on a player's face. I've seen it. This law of physics also applies to human flesh, and successive hits to the same spot can cause significant damage.

The SPPL hopper rule is in place because it's the only way to monitor and control the 15 BPS cap. Cheater boards that bypass tourney locks are available for almost all electros now. The NPPL and XPSL have millions of dollars in funding, so they can afford to have Goldwave parabolic microphones to target individual players and test their BPS (not to mention that speedball fields are much smaller and more open than typical SPPL fields). The SPPL does not have that. If you didn't know already, the SPPL hasn't been a part of Spec Ops since last year, so it no longer has the seemingly unlimited backing of Mr. Orvis.

As far as mechanical markers and RT's being able to shoot significantly faster than 15 BPS - there are probably fewer than 100 mechanicals in existence that can actually do that, and far fewer players that can actually work the sweet spot.

I don't give a crap whether there is a hopper rule or not, or whether I'm playing against someone shooting ropes of paint or someone with a Phantom, as long as my safety isn't at stake. I definitely don't want my livelihood jeopardized because some knucklehead has an APE board (just an example Dan; I love APE boards) shooting 30+ balls per second at my head.

So I ask again - why do players want to shoot ungodly rates of fire?
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#67 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 06:26 PM

View PostSplatter, on Dec 2 2008, 07:08 PM, said:

View PostZach_attack, on Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.


The WTL tournaments are BYOP, so this idea is moot. Limiting paint will have little effect on the field's income.
Yes it will. People still buy their paint from the field sometimes. And when they are shooting an ungodly amount of paint and run out they buy more from the field.

My question is, why do players want to be able to shoot 24+ BPS? I play SPPL (our team was second in the nation in our division this year), and I have a "speedball" gun - yes, I call it a gun - that says it will shoot 30+ BPS. I don't shoot that fast, and I can just barely move my fingers fast enough to make it start ramping in the first place, let alone keep it ramping for more than a half-second or so when I'm screwing around with it. I really only got it because it looks cool.There are other reasons to own high ends other than speed. And believe it or not you can turn electros on semi. Then they won't ramp. Shocking, I know.

The most important point about limiting rates of fire is not so much about the "fairness" of high rates of fire. It is a very valid safety issue. Our masks are designed to take a 300 fps hit to the lens and frame. Multiple hits in the same spot will increase stress on that spot exponentially. That means that each hit does not just add the same amount of damage as the previous one - it actually multiplies the stress, and a mask that is designed for paintball can fail, or even be forced out of position on a player's face. I've seen it. This law of physics also applies to human flesh, and successive hits to the same spot can cause significant damage.Ya. And a paintball will really hit in the exact same spot for 20-30 balls.

The SPPL hopper rule is in place because it's the only way to monitor and control the 15 BPS cap. Then why isn't it in place for mechanical markers? It isn't the only way to control it. Have a ref inspect guns when they chrono. Mess around with them and try to see if they will go into ramping even though they are tourny locked.Cheater boards that bypass tourney locks are available for almost all electros now. The NPPL and XPSL have millions of dollars in fundingReally? The NPPL just declared bankruptcy. They don't have millions of dollars in funding., so they can afford to have Goldwave parabolic microphones to target individual players and test their BPS (not to mention that speedball fields are much smaller and more open than typical SPPL fields). The SPPL does not have that. If you didn't know already, the SPPL hasn't been a part of Spec Ops since last year, so it no longer has the seemingly unlimited backing of Mr. Orvis.

As far as mechanical markers and RT's being able to shoot significantly faster than 15 BPS - there are probably fewer than 100 mechanicals in existence that can actually do that, and far fewer players that can actually work the sweet spot.
Mechanical Autocockers can be set up to shoot pretty damn fast. And theres no way to cap them. Why don't they have to use a special hopper?

I don't give a crap whether there is a hopper rule or not, or whether I'm playing against someone shooting ropes of paint or someone with a Phantom, as long as my safety isn't at stake. I definitely don't want my livelihood jeopardized because some knucklehead has an APE board (just an example Dan; I love APE boards) shooting 30+ balls per second at my head.Because we all know that anyone with an APE board automatically overshoots and has no sense of safety. :D Again, there are other reasons to buy those products.

So I ask again - why do players want to shoot ungodly rates of fire?

They shoot "ungodly" amounts of paint to keep players in their bunkers. At 4 or 5 bps people can still run out or snapshoot pretty easily. At 15 or 13.3 bps it's a lot harder. And just because they can shoot that fast doesn't mean they always do.

If you are going to put a rule in place make it fair for everyone. Not just people that use markers you don't like.

I would also like to point out another reason for the SPPL's hopper rule. When the league was made it was a part of Special Ops Paintball. As you know Spec Ops has pretty big ties with Tippmann. Thats why they make so many mods for the A5. If you know anything about Tippmanns you know that the A5 can only use 1 type of hopper without some serious modifications, and that is the cyclone feed. Now why would Spec Ops keep guns that they make mods for and that are made by one of their major business partners out of their league? If they had made the rule fair thats exactly what they would have done.
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#68 User is offline   Pandemonium 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 08:46 PM

View PostSplatter, on Dec 2 2008, 06:08 PM, said:

View PostZach_attack, on Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM, said:

Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.


The WTL tournaments are BYOP, so this idea is moot. Limiting paint will have little effect on the field's income.

My question is, why do players want to be able to shoot 24+ BPS? I play SPPL (our team was second in the nation in our division this year), and I have a "speedball" gun - yes, I call it a gun - that says it will shoot 30+ BPS. I don't shoot that fast, and I can just barely move my fingers fast enough to make it start ramping in the first place, let alone keep it ramping for more than a half-second or so when I'm screwing around with it. I really only got it because it looks cool.

The most important point about limiting rates of fire is not so much about the "fairness" of high rates of fire. It is a very valid safety issue. Our masks are designed to take a 300 fps hit to the lens and frame. Multiple hits in the same spot will increase stress on that spot exponentially. That means that each hit does not just add the same amount of damage as the previous one - it actually multiplies the stress, and a mask that is designed for paintball can fail, or even be forced out of position on a player's face. I've seen it. This law of physics also applies to human flesh, and successive hits to the same spot can cause significant damage.

The SPPL hopper rule is in place because it's the only way to monitor and control the 15 BPS cap. Cheater boards that bypass tourney locks are available for almost all electros now. The NPPL and XPSL have millions of dollars in funding, so they can afford to have Goldwave parabolic microphones to target individual players and test their BPS (not to mention that speedball fields are much smaller and more open than typical SPPL fields). The SPPL does not have that. If you didn't know already, the SPPL hasn't been a part of Spec Ops since last year, so it no longer has the seemingly unlimited backing of Mr. Orvis.

As far as mechanical markers and RT's being able to shoot significantly faster than 15 BPS - there are probably fewer than 100 mechanicals in existence that can actually do that, and far fewer players that can actually work the sweet spot.

I don't give a crap whether there is a hopper rule or not, or whether I'm playing against someone shooting ropes of paint or someone with a Phantom, as long as my safety isn't at stake. I definitely don't want my livelihood jeopardized because some knucklehead has an APE board (just an example Dan; I love APE boards) shooting 30+ balls per second at my head.

So I ask again - why do players want to shoot ungodly rates of fire?

Modern masks are designed to withstand these forces. You might have seen an outdated mask or old mask break or show stress after multiple repetitive hits. But a decently new lens on a mask will be able to withstand the stress you describe. It would be stupid if not designed to, especially in tournament paintball.
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#69 User is offline   EpShot 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 09:36 PM

i think there are far greater concerns with being hit in the neck and back of the head, rather than the lens. Particularly when bunkering is concerned
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#70 User is offline   Splatter 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 09:51 PM

[quote name='ghost93' post='2253575' date='Dec 2 2008, 05:26 PM'][quote name='Splatter' post='2253548' date='Dec 2 2008, 07:08 PM'][quote name='Zach_attack' post='2252935' date='Dec 1 2008, 09:28 PM']Here's the problem with limiting paint. Field owners don't want to do it, they would lose too much money. Limiting paint is like limiting how much money they make and they don't want that. They want you to buy as much of their stuff as you can so they can get as much money as they can.[/quote]

The WTL tournaments are BYOP, so this idea is moot. Limiting paint will have little effect on the field's income.
Yes it will. People still buy their paint from the field sometimes. And when they are shooting an ungodly amount of paint and run out they buy more from the field.
Umm, if you read the point of this thread, it is not about "sometimes" at the field, it is about during the WTL tournaments.

My question is, why do players want to be able to shoot 24+ BPS? I play SPPL (our team was second in the nation in our division this year), and I have a "speedball" gun - yes, I call it a gun - that says it will shoot 30+ BPS. I don't shoot that fast, and I can just barely move my fingers fast enough to make it start ramping in the first place, let alone keep it ramping for more than a half-second or so when I'm screwing around with it. I really only got it because it looks cool.There are other reasons to own high ends other than speed. And believe it or not you can turn electros on semi. Then they won't ramp. Shocking, I know. Duh - if you had any reading comprehension, you would understand that I have a high-end electro. Since I don't have the dexterity to ramp, I keep my super-duper marker on semi at all times. In fact, my entire team pride themselves on using semi-only.

The most important point about limiting rates of fire is not so much about the "fairness" of high rates of fire. It is a very valid safety issue. Our masks are designed to take a 300 fps hit to the lens and frame. Multiple hits in the same spot will increase stress on that spot exponentially. That means that each hit does not just add the same amount of damage as the previous one - it actually multiplies the stress, and a mask that is designed for paintball can fail, or even be forced out of position on a player's face. I've seen it. This law of physics also applies to human flesh, and successive hits to the same spot can cause significant damage.Ya. And a paintball will really hit in the exact same spot for 20-30 balls. It only takes about 4 to 5 balls in the same spot to cause permanent damage, and at 24 to 30 BPS, that's 6 to 7.5 balls hitting within a quarter of a second. That is pretty much the exact same spot, unless you are Superman or The Flash. And it doesn't need to be in the exact same spot on the side of your mask to knock it aside.

The SPPL hopper rule is in place because it's the only way to monitor and control the 15 BPS cap. Then why isn't it in place for mechanical markers? It isn't the only way to control it. Have a ref inspect guns when they chrono. Mess around with them and try to see if they will go into ramping even though they are tourny locked. The SPPL doesn't have enough refs to inspect every player's gun before every game, and the WTL sure as heck doesn't. Plus, Have you ever used a cheater board? You cannot get it into cheat mode by "messing around" with it. Cheater boards that bypass tourney locks are available for almost all electros now. The NPPL and XPSL have millions of dollars in fundingReally? The NPPL just declared bankruptcy. They don't have millions of dollars in funding. They used to - that is how they could have two refs per player and realtime Goldwave rate-of-fire testing., so they can afford to have Goldwave parabolic microphones to target individual players and test their BPS (not to mention that speedball fields are much smaller and more open than typical SPPL fields). The SPPL does not have that. If you didn't know already, the SPPL hasn't been a part of Spec Ops since last year, so it no longer has the seemingly unlimited backing of Mr. Orvis.

As far as mechanical markers and RT's being able to shoot significantly faster than 15 BPS - there are probably fewer than 100 mechanicals in existence that can actually do that, and far fewer players that can actually work the sweet spot.
Mechanical Autocockers can be set up to shoot pretty damn fast. And theres no way to cap them. Why don't they have to use a special hopper? I am not going to give you a lesson in Newton's Laws of Physics, but mechanical Autocockers cannot shoot as fast as an electro. Even an Automag R/T or an A5 with every possible upgrade by Tech T or any other aftermarket supplier can only hit about 18 to 20 BPS in the most ideal conditions, even though some makers say that an A5 can shoot up to 30 BPS. If someone has one that is faster than that, come on out to Vegas and show me. Have you ever tested the ROF of any mechanical marker? I have been playing paintball for almost 25 years, and have owned some of the fastest guns, mechanical and electro, that were ever made. Once again, there are probably fewer that one hundred mechanical guns that can shoot consistently faster than 15 BPS. That's total guns, not 100 kinds of guns - just one hundred. Period. And it takes a great deal of concentration to work the trigger of a mechanical just right to get that many balls out that fast.

I don't give a crap whether there is a hopper rule or not, or whether I'm playing against someone shooting ropes of paint or someone with a Phantom, as long as my safety isn't at stake. I definitely don't want my livelihood jeopardized because some knucklehead has an APE board (just an example Dan; I love APE boards) shooting 30+ balls per second at my head.Because we all know that anyone with an APE board automatically overshoots and has no sense of safety. :laugh: Again, there are other reasons to buy those products. Yes, I know. You obviously didn't get the hint that I have APE products, and I enjoy them very much.

So I ask again - why do players want to shoot ungodly rates of fire?
[/quote]
They shoot "ungodly" amounts of paint to keep players in their bunkers. At 4 or 5 bps people can still run out or snapshoot pretty easily. At 15 or 13.3 bps it's a lot harder. But is 24+ BPS really necessary? And just because they can shoot that fast doesn't mean they always do.

If you are going to put a rule in place make it fair for everyone. Not just people that use markers you don't like.

I would also like to point out another reason for the SPPL's hopper rule. When the league was made it was a part of Special Ops Paintball. As you know Spec Ops has pretty big ties with Tippmann. Thats why they make so many mods for the A5. If you know anything about Tippmanns you know that the A5 can only use 1 type of hopper without some serious modifications, and that is the cyclone feed. Now why would Spec Ops keep guns that they make mods for and that are made by one of their major business partners out of their league? If they had made the rule fair thats exactly what they would have done.
I am not even going to get involved in the whole Spec Ops/Tippmann conspiracy theory line of crap. If you hold Spec Ops in such disdain, why are you a member of the Spec Ops forums?[/quote]

To all of you who actually have some reading comprehension:

Too many players base their "opinions" on rumors and hearsay, and ignore the facts. Stop listening to what monkeys are telling you, and do your own research. If you don't like a product, you don't need to explain why; it is your right to have your own opinion. Just don't use inaccuracies and falsehoods to try and sway someone else.

[quote name='Pandemonium']Modern masks are designed to withstand these forces. You might have seen an outdated mask or old mask break or show stress after multiple repetitive hits. But a decently new lens on a mask will be able to withstand the stress you describe. It would be stupid if not designed to, especially in tournament paintball.[/quote]
You are correct, but ASTM standards for paintball masks only specify the lens and frame withstanding a limited number of hits (I don't remember how many exactly; maybe a factory rep can post the actual ASTM standard), and the area of the mask outside the lens frame is not required to have any testing at all. I don't remember about the ear covering; I don't think that is specified in the standard either. But you appear to have misunderstood that part of the post - I have witnessed a mask knocked to the side, not broken. And that was in tournament 'ball.

[quote name='EpShot' post='2253785' date='Dec 2 2008, 08:36 PM']i think there are far greater concerns with being hit in the neck and back of the head, rather than the lens. Particularly when bunkering is concerned[/quote]
Absolutely!

This post has been edited by Splatter: 02 December 2008 - 10:01 PM

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#71 User is offline   Zach_attack 

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:18 PM

I still believe the only logical thing to do is a BPS cap. There are some mech markers that can rip just as fast as electros so there is absolutely no reason for a hopper restriction, its just stupid

You are basically saying you are worried about 20+ BPS, so a 13-15 BPS limit(Like most speedball leagues) would work, yes? and there are far more than a few hundred mech markers that can easily go over 15. There is atleast 5-10 just at my small home field. There are thousands and thousands of autocockers and mags, even tippmanns that can be as easily walked, easily shot and easily used as a electro can be. There is no need to restrict one or the other.

This post has been edited by Zach_attack: 02 December 2008 - 11:29 PM


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#72 User is offline   Delta11 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 01:14 AM

I would just say
-bigger field
-longer time limit

That way the opposing teams will be forced to use tactics and take their time to plan and execute said plan. This way there's more teamwork at play, and the time limit won't be a problem. Let's just say, if this is done, the teams will be almost equal even with like 30bps vs 15bps, gravity fed hopper vs force fed hoppers, speedball team vs woodsball team, etc.

This is the only logical change I see that will make things more fair since it doesn't force a player to change their equipment, doesn't force anyone to do anything with anything, just brings back true woodsball and team tactics with more than enough time for strategies to be executed instead of rushing it.

Afterall, what makes the player is not what they use, it is how they play.
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#73 User is offline   Pandemonium 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 12:42 PM

this thread is good. lots of good, honest opinions and information thrown around in here. i like it. :dodgy:
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#74 User is offline   cor_man257 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 02:22 PM

I was thinking the same thing.

Delta brings up a good point. If you want this competition to return to something like the glory days of paintball then you need to expand the time limit considerably and make your feilds bigger.

I play outlaw. Usually 2vs2. And I cant tell you the number of games that have gone on longer then 7 minutes. Hundreds. And thats 2vs2 games. Now a game that has 10 players per side is going to last considerably longer. Especially if you want it to be "back to its roots in the woods". A game thats 7 minutes long is going to compact most of your gameplay and not give you enough time to really work your tactics effectively. Its going to make it into a very fast paced style game like the speedball games you see on Tv. Granted probably not as fast paced, your not playing on a 100yard feild are you? But still its going to shorten it considerably. I would suggest a 20 minute game, or something of the likes to get paintball back in the woods.
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#75 User is offline   Ecellg 

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 02:58 PM

I eagerly await Ghost's reply to Splatter.

This post has been edited by Ecellg: 03 December 2008 - 02:58 PM

FULDA GAP 2009
Serving In The:
U.S. 3rd Mechanized Infantry Division/3rd Brigade 3-22 Infantry
NATO WILL Be Victorious This Next Year
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