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#31 User is offline   Winston_Smith 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:40 AM

Well I'm 100% totally against Universal Health care, and this is why.

1.The government has a bad record of being able to run any program efficiently.
2.Taxes are going to go up, I think I pay enough taxes right now.
3.Do you want all your medical decisions made by a bureaucracy? Imagine needing a transplant, with the speed that almost every other government program runs your going to be waiting a long time.
4.How much money is a heart attack worth? How much money is cancer worth? These questions will need to be answered. You can't just allow people to get all the treatment they want, we
could go broke.

I would prefer a 100% privatized system, right now we don't have that. The government has stuck it's nose is and tried to “help”, but has done nothing but cause problems. The real problem is how people are not even involved in health care to the point they should be. Increasingly people just expect to have this and have that, they flat out refuse to think. They expect everything to be provided by the government, when the government was never supposed to be doing half the crap it is now. The answer is clearly less government control.

Go talk to an older person that will remember back before health care costs started to spiral out of control. Better yet take a look back in history and see what started this spiral in cost yourself, you may be surprised to find out that the government has a lot to do with it.

Who in this thread likes HMO's? Take a peek at the HMO act of 1973, yep thank the us government.

Being a Libertarian I always prefer the least government in my personal life, just as anyone should. To much government is a very bad thing and this government of ours has grown well beyond the size that it should have. Allowing them to now takeover our medical system is not the right thing to do.

I'd like to type more but I have to be to work in 20 minutes.
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#32 User is offline   AaronC 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 06:13 AM

My biggest complaint against private healthcare isn't the cost but the fact that it is in the interests of the insurers to keep their costs as low as possible which means that even if you pay for insurance their job is to find a way to cover you as little as possible. Everyone is saying they trust big businesses more than the government which is completely messed up governments may not be efficient but they are accountable to the people corporations are only accountable to their shareholders.
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#33 User is offline   Millslane 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 06:42 AM

I fully understand that terrorists can come from anywhere as they have in the past, even from right here within our own borders.

Where are our doctors going to come from? Not from the US, no from Canada, fewer will come come from India. Our doctors will leave and we will have to find them from another course who are willing to be paid less. I am giving a specific example of how this has already happed. I am calling them out, I am not going to be PC as yo have tried and be very broad on this. Middle Eastern Islamic Terrorists will become out doctors.

We already have prefect examples that some European countries and their universal health care system have given us.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/03...tors/index.html
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/feat...cle_1325660.php
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe...,492196,00.html

What more reasoning does anybody need? Its obvious who is going to try and fill the want adds for doctors in this country. We won't be able to stop them from coming in, because they are so dedicated to their ultimate goal that they will spend years getting educated so that they can legally practice medicine in the US. Its problem is right here in front of us, take a look.
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#34 User is offline   AaronC 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 08:14 AM

View PostMillslane, on Feb 14 2008, 08:42 AM, said:

I fully understand that terrorists can come from anywhere as they have in the past, even from right here within our own borders.

Where are our doctors going to come from? Not from the US, no from Canada, fewer will come come from India. Our doctors will leave and we will have to find them from another course who are willing to be paid less. I am giving a specific example of how this has already happed. I am calling them out, I am not going to be PC as yo have tried and be very broad on this. Middle Eastern Islamic Terrorists will become out doctors.

We already have prefect examples that some European countries and their universal health care system have given us.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/03...tors/index.html
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/feat...cle_1325660.php
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe...,492196,00.html

What more reasoning does anybody need? Its obvious who is going to try and fill the want adds for doctors in this country. We won't be able to stop them from coming in, because they are so dedicated to their ultimate goal that they will spend years getting educated so that they can legally practice medicine in the US. Its problem is right here in front of us, take a look.



By your logic all Astronauts should be locked up. Need proof?
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#35 User is offline   White Rook II 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 08:27 AM

Taxpayers in California will pay $57.8 billion for the cost of the Iraq War through 2007. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:
23,728,801 People with Health Care
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#36 User is offline   AaronC 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 08:46 AM

View PostWhite Rook II, on Feb 14 2008, 10:27 AM, said:

Taxpayers in California will pay $57.8 billion for the cost of the Iraq War through 2007. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided:
23,728,801 People with Health Care


But if sick people get better the terrorists win. :(
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#37 User is offline   Swamp Thing 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 02:07 PM

Even with the war the federal government still pays more for the Medicare/Medicade program than the entire department of Defence budget. It is the single biggest expence the federal government has to fund. Healthcare currently accounts for 15% of our Gross domestic product. So 15% of all the money our country generates a year goes to healthcare.

Even with these staggering numbers the Government Healthcare system is likely to go broke sometime in the next 10 years. Healthcare is a big problem and there are no easy fixes. You can say you want universal health care but with the current system as it is the we (read the United States) can not afford to have healthcare for everyone.

What are possible solutions

1. Rationing meaning that there are only so many people that can be treated and you make decisions that along the lines of "You have to many health problems and are not likely to live very long so we are going to spend our dollars on this patient here who will get more out of this expensive procedure than you will sorry go home and start studying your bible cause there is gonna be a pop quiz real soon"

2. Full government control of healthcare with the government institution price controlls and essentiallly putting all healthcare workers on a sallary and running the whole deal. Humm when was the last time the government took over anything and ran it cheaper and better than private industry.

3. Government overahall of the Insurance system taking away some of the profit that these companies earn and putting that toward care. Yeah I want to live in a country where the government determines when I am makeing too much money and takes it away from me (Oh yea I already Do!)

4. Raising Taxes because someone will have to pay for this.

5. Having a two teir system where those without money and insurance get access to care perhaps not the best or quickest care but some minimal level of medical care an those with Money pay the big bucks to get the care level that they want.

6. Constructing Cost effective guidelines that the physicians will have to follow. Perhaps not the best workup money can buy but the one that will make the correct diagnosis and give adequate treatment the majority of the time. This would have to go hand in hand with some type of ban on lawsuits as long as you follow the guidelines since cases will arrise where people may be able to aledge that Test X would have lead to better or quicker diagnosis or management of the disease and prevented some harm.

I am sure there are many other possible solutions but if you are really gonna get this fixed you have to

1. Start Now
2. Be willing to institue extremnly unpopular taxes or limitations on care
3. Figure out at way to keep the educated healthcare workers from starting clinics outside the system or leaving the U.S. to provide health care in Dubai

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#38 User is offline   The Shepherd 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 02:44 PM

Listen to Swamp thing. He knows what he's talking about.
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#39 User is offline   Deus Ex Machina 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 03:21 PM

View PostMillslane, on Feb 14 2008, 07:42 AM, said:

I fully understand that terrorists can come from anywhere as they have in the past, even from right here within our own borders.

Where are our doctors going to come from? Not from the US, no from Canada, fewer will come come from India. Our doctors will leave and we will have to find them from another course who are willing to be paid less. I am giving a specific example of how this has already happed. I am calling them out, I am not going to be PC as yo have tried and be very broad on this. Middle Eastern Islamic Terrorists will become out doctors.

We already have prefect examples that some European countries and their universal health care system have given us.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/07/03...tors/index.html
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/uk/feat...cle_1325660.php
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe...,492196,00.html

What more reasoning does anybody need? Its obvious who is going to try and fill the want adds for doctors in this country. We won't be able to stop them from coming in, because they are so dedicated to their ultimate goal that they will spend years getting educated so that they can legally practice medicine in the US. Its problem is right here in front of us, take a look.


They can ultimately fill the need of Starbucks workers as well. If not Starbucks workers, then McDonalds workers. I've already shown you examples of how terrorists have already infiltrated other areas as well, and that the previous largest act of terror was committed not only by an American, but by a service member of the Armed Forces.

What is to stop them from becoming doctors now? Remember, terrorists, by your own definition, "are so dedicated to their ultimate goal that they will spend years getting educated so that they can legally practice medicine in the US". Why would this be any different than it currently is? Remember, terrorists can have a virtually unlimited supply of resources, and if they are so convinced on becoming doctors to infiltrate the United States, what stops them now? Are you seriously saying that because they are an Middle Eastern Islamic Terrorist, they can not perform medicene in this country for that very reason, as if the entire community some how knows they are a terrorist and refuses to do business with them?

If you want to be so "Un-PC" about this, then I'll make the same broad claims as you do, and due to Timothy McVeigh, I'll say that any white American member of the armed forces, is a terrorst. Remember, you're using small examples to extrapolate large generalizations. I can do the same thing, and reach any conclusion I desire as long as some terrorist has done it some where, at some point in history.

Look at what you're saying. You used three examples, I'll use three examples. Seung-Hui Cho, Eric Harris, and Dylan Klebold were all students. They all executed people in massacres, generally considered acts of terror. Therefore, we can extrapolate, using the same conditions you do, that the next wave of terrorists will come in the form of students. Please excuse me while I ready my tin hat, for I believe Mr. McCarthy has a list of Communists in our own government, that I must see.
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#40 User is offline   Millslane 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:25 PM

Everyone is missing the point. This is not about Student, Starbucks, Astronauts or anything else, I was specifically speaking to the negative impact that the Universal Health Care System will have on our country and made a claim for a specific negative influence that it will have on our country, which if that day ever comes, will be directly related to the use of of Universal Health Care.

I think you guys are trying to make this into something its not. Sure, any professions can be used as a way into the country. But this thread is not about that. Its about Universal Health Care and the pros and cons of it. I stand by the truth that we will need doctors and they will come from the Middle Easy and not with intentions of practicing medicine to Americans. Our borders are not wide open any more. Many people looking to move, not travel, to America legally have to be a skilled worker. I know a few Canadians who want to move here and work for whatever reason. Their requests have been denied because they are not skilled enough. Nobody is going to get to immigrate and work at a Starbucks. But when we need doctors...I don't have to say it anymore do I?

Its alot harder to get in this country and stay in, legally, unless there is a NEED for you. Universal Health Care will provide a means for needed professionals as Doctors and the Terrorists will jump at the opportunity to enter this country, legally and stay legally for a long time. They get to be legal! Set up a practice, pay taxes, earn trust in the community and then blow them all up one day. We don't need astronauts, we don't need anybody right now. But we will need doctors if Universal Health Care is used.

I don't want Universal Health Care for many reasons. This is only one of them. If we are going to continue to misunderstand what I am saying then there is no need to go on with this and we should turn from this specific topic and talk more about the other pro's and con's of Universal Health Care.

I disagree with Universal Health Care for other reasons. My taxes will go up and for what? For me to have probably worse health care? I have great health care and I don't need the government taking it over on me. The system does not benefit anyone except those who do not have it for whatever reason and its a major negative for those who do and have a decent plan. No one is yet to explain a good reason why its the governments job to give every American health coverage because one does not exists. "So that everyone is covered" it not a reason for me to be willing to open my pocket book up for the democrats and flip flopping republicans again. I am sorry of anyone reading this falling into the uninsured category. What the government needs to be doing it researching a way to make health care affordable so that people can purchase decent family coverage plans for a reasonable amount of money.

This post has been edited by Millslane: 14 February 2008 - 04:29 PM

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#41 User is offline   Deus Ex Machina 

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Posted 14 February 2008 - 04:33 PM

I was referring to you using three examples. You used three doctors, I used three students, and we could both come to the same conclusion.

As I have repeatedly said, I can understand all other reasons.

You're making up a threat to national security that exists irregardless of universal health care or not. The United States will always need more workers, for various different industires. That's why certain jobs become in demand. Why do you think the medical field has always had a short amount of people? Because there is always a demand for doctors. You will always have a demand for workers, and there will always be an industry who will hire people. It's supply and demand, not "the terrorists will come because of universal health care". Unless you can some how prove to me that the United States will suddenly have every single job position filled, in every state, then you are hardly proving a point. There will always be a need, because that is how Capitalism fundamentally works. With a need for people to physically present at a job, they could come through anywhere.

People immigrate and work for Starbucks all the time, by the way. They work for Wal-Mart too. There are thousands of jobs they could pick.

This post has been edited by deusexmachina55: 14 February 2008 - 04:36 PM

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