Special Ops Paintball: .50 Caliber - Special Ops Paintball

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.50 Caliber The new standard?

#151 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 01:34 PM

View PostRockFish, on Nov 18 2009, 06:06 PM, said:



Thanks for the links

I know that the 50 cal isn't supposed to be shot hot, but I'd like to see the results of it shooting around 440 or 450fps. If it is an improvement, maybe there should be some safety tests done, because we know 300fps is arbitrary and only works for .68 caliber.

If it could be shown safe and accurate at a higher speed, it might be a better round than it presently is.
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#152 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 05:19 PM

View PostTim Burton, on Nov 24 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

I know that the 50 cal isn't supposed to be shot hot, but I'd like to see the results of it shooting around 440 or 450fps. If it is an improvement, maybe there should be some safety tests done, because we know 300fps is arbitrary and only works for .68 caliber.

If it could be shown safe and accurate at a higher speed, it might be a better round than it presently is.



It won't matter.

Here's why -- let's assume for sake of argument that 450 FPS with a .50 paintball is "safe." Not saying it is (I don't know, but use some other guinea pig), but for sake of argument it is.

No matter how safe they prove it to be, it will never be allowed. Insurance companies will never go for it. They go for 300 because it's been a standard since before paintball field insurance arrived on the scene. It's the same reason many insurance companies actually mandate field paint only -- to "prevent modification or otherwise unsafe projectiles" or some such. It's why some fields won't allow nerf rounds for anti-tank/bunker -- because the insurance company won't allow it.

The point is, the insurance company gets the real final say. And I sincerely doubt they'll take the time and effort (and money) to confirm "oh, .50 is OK for velocity X."

They'll keep the standard universal since that's no work for them, and it's simpler for them too.
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#153 User is offline   Deus_Wolf 

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 06:10 PM

View PostEthrealwolf, on Nov 23 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

View PostLoneWolf99, on Nov 23 2009, 03:38 AM, said:

I with that was the case - but it is still being marketed as "The .50 Caliber REVOLUTION!!!!" What you said makes perfect sense - and exactly how it should have been marketed in the first place. But, GI Milsim has flat out stated in the past - "They want .50 to be the new format for the game & replace .68 entirely."

Why do you think there has been so much pushback from the players in general - when someone tells me they want to replace the standard with an inferior product & force me to buy all new equipment to shoot "their" paint - I get a little annoyed.


I'll awnser them in backwards order.

the players is two reasons. first, people don't like SP. they see that Smart parts is a driving force behind this, and they hate. even if .50 had lived up to all the hype, people would still hate. the second is, as much as people in the sport hate to admit it, they think change is scary and the status quo needs to be maintained till the sport dies from stagnation.

and yeah, it was (and still is) being marketed in retarded ways, I'm sure as hell not going to argue with you there. Again, see smart parts and anything they've ever marketed ever. though I'd be firing my marketing team if i was italia right now, especially after the ballistic and break tests started getting out.

But, the sad part is, for all the backlash, and despite the tests, there are going to be people who buy the hype, and waste their cash on this poo.


Although many people believe that SP is the driving force behind this project it is not. Richmond Italia, founder of Procaps, Draxxus, Vforce, NXL, inventor of X-Ball and personal friend, is the man behind the idea in this case. He is being supported financially by the Gardner brothers but they have little to do with the initial concept. His list of accomplishments doesn't really prove anything aside from the fact that he is no shill. It also serves to mention that he's a man who knows his balls! and his masks. V-Force is known to have one of the most rigorous testing in the industry and this is the man who brought it to us. Procaps(Draxxus, formely Diablo Paint) makes, imo, some of the best balls in the industry and this is also the man who brought you those. So if he is claiming that these balls are better for the player it's because they're better for the player. If he is claiming these balls are as safe as .68cal ones than these balls are as safe. I don't generally agree with "authority worship" but this is probably one of the few people in the world I would explicitly trust on matters of paintball, the other being Tom Kaye himself. He really doesn't stand to gain anything personally from lying to the entire paintball community and I highly doubt he's misinformed on his own product. I can't tell you whether or not this theory is plausible but I can say that the man representing it is. I also stand to lose a lot from a switch to .50cal but I'm going to keep an open mind for the sake of the sport instead of my own selfish reasons.

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#154 User is offline   Ethrealwolf 

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Posted 24 November 2009 - 10:59 PM

View PostDeus_Wolf, on Nov 24 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

View PostEthrealwolf, on Nov 23 2009, 11:45 AM, said:

View PostLoneWolf99, on Nov 23 2009, 03:38 AM, said:

I with that was the case - but it is still being marketed as "The .50 Caliber REVOLUTION!!!!" What you said makes perfect sense - and exactly how it should have been marketed in the first place. But, GI Milsim has flat out stated in the past - "They want .50 to be the new format for the game & replace .68 entirely."

Why do you think there has been so much pushback from the players in general - when someone tells me they want to replace the standard with an inferior product & force me to buy all new equipment to shoot "their" paint - I get a little annoyed.


I'll awnser them in backwards order.

the players is two reasons. first, people don't like SP. they see that Smart parts is a driving force behind this, and they hate. even if .50 had lived up to all the hype, people would still hate. the second is, as much as people in the sport hate to admit it, they think change is scary and the status quo needs to be maintained till the sport dies from stagnation.

and yeah, it was (and still is) being marketed in retarded ways, I'm sure as hell not going to argue with you there. Again, see smart parts and anything they've ever marketed ever. though I'd be firing my marketing team if i was italia right now, especially after the ballistic and break tests started getting out.

But, the sad part is, for all the backlash, and despite the tests, there are going to be people who buy the hype, and waste their cash on this poo.


Although many people believe that SP is the driving force behind this project it is not. Richmond Italia, founder of Procaps, Draxxus, Vforce, NXL, inventor of X-Ball and personal friend, is the man behind the idea in this case. He is being supported financially by the Gardner brothers but they have little to do with the initial concept. His list of accomplishments doesn't really prove anything aside from the fact that he is no shill. It also serves to mention that he's a man who knows his balls! and his masks. V-Force is known to have one of the most rigorous testing in the industry and this is the man who brought it to us. Procaps(Draxxus, formely Diablo Paint) makes, imo, some of the best balls in the industry and this is also the man who brought you those. So if he is claiming that these balls are better for the player it's because they're better for the player. If he is claiming these balls are as safe as .68cal ones than these balls are as safe. I don't generally agree with "authority worship" but this is probably one of the few people in the world I would explicitly trust on matters of paintball, the other being Tom Kaye himself. He really doesn't stand to gain anything personally from lying to the entire paintball community and I highly doubt he's misinformed on his own product. I can't tell you whether or not this theory is plausible but I can say that the man representing it is. I also stand to lose a lot from a switch to .50cal but I'm going to keep an open mind for the sake of the sport instead of my own selfish reasons.


You'll notice i didn't say SP was the driving force- i said they are a driving force. Important distinction.

Secondly, I do agree that .50 is good for the sport, overall I beleive it could be a uesful tool to bring the sport to place it can't currently be, and to introduce more new players to fields. I also believe in hard data that says the current .50 cal paint is not competitive with .68- let alone superior- in any area except efficiency (which, though good, is really hardly a selling point, since as long as you can shoot what's in your pods, it's not worth worrying about)

and it's again, not italia marketing this crap. it's SP. (again, see anything they've ever marketed ever) I'm sure if he was marketing it, he'd be straight up- it's for new players and to help bring the sport to places where existing restrictions either limit or out and out prevent play. There's NO WAY, under existing laws that I'm aware of to make the current claims of "better accuracy, Efficiency, range, and lower cost!" all true within the law (since paintball, by law, have to be non-toxic, and only toxic liquids really have the density necessary to reach the required mass to pull that off- though I guess if you figured out a way to mix rock powder or something without gunking up the machines into the mix, you could do so in non-toxic quantities and possibly pull of the necessary mass)

Also, at this point, I don't hardly beleive the "it's not the final formula!" line. all testing that has been done was done with the GI milsim paint- which, if they're testing with an imperfect formula, is really, really questionable anyway. Why would you risk business by allowing your product to be inferior early on?

All in all, I'll restate where I'm at- I do support .50. I don't support it as a general population paint, since 1) it's inferior, performance wise, and 2) I, the player, wouldn't save a dime, though I might see some improvements at the field.

View Postdruid, on Nov 24 2009, 12:59 AM, said:

View PostEthrealwolf, on Nov 23 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

I'll awnser them in backwards order.

1. the players is two reasons. first, people don't like SP. they see that Smart parts is a driving force behind this, and they hate.

2. even if .50 had lived up to all the hype, people would still hate.

3. the second is, as much as people in the sport hate to admit it, they think change is scary and the status quo needs to be maintained till the sport dies from stagnation.

4. and yeah, it was (and still is) being marketed in retarded ways, I'm sure as hell not going to argue with you there.

5. Again, see smart parts and anything they've ever marketed ever. though I'd be firing my marketing team if i was italia right now, especially after the ballistic and break tests started getting out.

6. But, the sad part is, for all the backlash, and despite the tests, there are going to be people who buy the hype, and waste their cash on this poo.


1. I could live with what you say except that I'm NOT one of the SP 'haters"...nor do I hate Kingman...

I hate the .50 cal because I don't care what they claim they can do with the formula, it's still going to suck. It did before and it will again. We already have statistics that show it to [of this new batch] and even you must admit it's lacking in most every aspect of the 68 counterpart save one...efficiency----but ONLY efficient in THEIR produiced marker...

2. It IS hype...and it CAN'T live up to their claim....not in retrofit kits and not unless they create some miracle recipe [which they haven't done YET for the 68 BTW]...it's a mess waiting to happen.

3. I could also live with what you say, except that there are just some things best left untouched. Sometimes that car with a window crank is better than electric windows.........especially when it has to go to the shop and have it's motor/drive belt replaced.

Just because something is new, doesn't make it better. The Yugo was new at one point too....

4. They are hyping it up to be the better 'sliced bread' and it just isn't so. I'm having a [mild] arguement over on the UWL site about it because the creator of the UWL is also the big wig [cough TOM COLE cough] who is PUSHING the 50 and trying to include it into the UWL. Gee...isn't Spyder making .50 pistols? Big suprise huh? It's a marketing ploy because a marker [without abusing it] will last for decades. My 68 Magnum is the prime example. Made in 1986, it runs today like it did the day I bought it. If the pro-50 companies are going to stay alive, they have to do SOMETHING that generates revenue. For them, that's markers. If we are forced to have to buy them because they've hyped everyone into believing this inferior ball is better...they have won....and at OUR cost.

5. I have to counter this with - dun dun dun - the Ion. From the GATE it was marketed as a "cheaper alternative to get [kids] into tourney ball." It lives up to that claim. It competes [bps for bps......weight vs weight.....etc] right from the box.

6. That's absolutely correct.


1. you hate .50 because you think you'll somehow be forced to use it in a grand, industry wide-conspiracy, right? I mean, a hell of a lot of people still do, so it's not like it's a big deal.

the thing is, it isn't. While they're saying they eventually want to replace all .68 cal with .50 cal, there's quite frankly no feasible way to do so. There's going to be demand for a bloody LONG time for .68, and as long as there's enough demand to make it viable, someone is going to make the stuff. And even if, somehow, magically, all the .68paint turns to dust the moment most of the .50cal markers are released, companies are making drop-in sizing kits.

2.Yes, so far it is hype. I also tend to believe it will always be hype- unless they're using high fructose corn syrup or something as the base for the paint, plus flour or some other thickener, it's not going to have the necessary density to perform up to the claims. ANd using those (as Tom kaye has already said) is a pain in the ass, because the injectors tend to gunk up.

3. and sometimes, hell most of the time, it is better. to use the car example, sometimes the hand crank is nice, sure, but a lot of the time, the electric window is great too and handcrank windows can break just as much as Electric ones can, even if it is rarer. Manual transmission, vs. automatic? yeah, that's a fine upgrade too.

Remember back when Constant air was introduced? Bitching and moaning. poo, I was 3 and I can read an old APG and see that. Ditto hoppers. then widespread semi-auto markers. then electros as production markers, and not homebrew cockers. then 15 bps cap. then 13 bps cap. then 10BPS cap. There's probably a half-dozen things I'm missing. Don't get me wrong, sometimes things really are better off being left well enough alone, but this isn't one of those cases. We've benefited, as a sport, greatly from the innovations and changes that have taken place over the past 20 or so years, and I'm sure we'll be saying the same thing in another 20. Stagnation will not Benefit us. Not in the least.

4.if you don't buy it, it's not at your cost. And people who do buy it aren't going to go "i got ripped off" and quit the sport- for the most part. yes, there are going to be cases where that happens, but it's only going to be in new players, and I'm willing to bet a lot of them won't ever step foot on a commercial field anyway- using .50 for backyard or outlaw ball makes perfect sense, especially if it goes into big box stores. Most of us (us being paintball players that go to commercial fields on a regular basis, or who are into the community) aren't going to buy it, except to maybe dink around with friends or teach new kids. it's not going to suddenly be the only thing available to anyone at all, ever, and .68 won't just magically disappear.

5. The ion's kind of touchy. as you say, it was marketed out of the gate as a cheaper way to get kids into tourney ball- which is true- but the other part of that claim was that it had performance on par with existing tourney ball markers- which is far from the truth. And even for that, I'll give you the 'magic box', which I'm sure you remember.

and since we agree on 6, there's no point in saying anything more about it. :P
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#155 User is offline   LoneWolf99 

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 06:35 PM

It is ironic that your two "honest" people in paintball are Italia & Tom Kaye - since they are saying exactly the "OPPOSITE" of each other on .50.

Italia has a financial stake in .50 being a success - but you'll notice how quiet everything has gotten from GI Milsim now that the paint has made it into the hands of unbiased 3rd parties & tested - and faired badly.

It doesn't shoot as far, doesn't break as often & is going to be limited to under 300fps, regardless of what Italia wants (though he has recently caved & said he has no intention of challenging the 300fps limit for .50).

Oh, and Tom Kaye tried to get .50 to work back in the day (through his perfect circle paintball company) & they couldn't figure out how to get the mass right, without making the paint toxic. And even today, he has said publically that .50 is hype.

So, who do you believe now?
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#156 User is offline   Deus_Wolf 

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 06:57 PM

Well lonewolf99 it's time to eat my own words a little. I didn't really know anything about the product except what Richmond and some others told me which I see was quite inaccurate. By the way I meant trust his experience not really his honesty. I still think the product has some potential and I think Richmond mentioned something about a part liquid wax fill like they used in the Diablos in the early millennium to make better winter balls for the sub-zero quebec climate. I still won't give up on it and I still believe the concept could be great for the sport but I've learned my lesson about responding without doing a little of my own research before hand.. Thanks for mentioning Tom, I looked up what he had to say and it seemed pretty interesting. His final comments on what he would do to ameliorate the current "crisis" we're in are pretty insightful and more than a little controversial.

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#157 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 25 November 2009 - 11:53 PM

View PostThalion, on Nov 24 2009, 05:19 PM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Nov 24 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

I know that the 50 cal isn't supposed to be shot hot, but I'd like to see the results of it shooting around 440 or 450fps. If it is an improvement, maybe there should be some safety tests done, because we know 300fps is arbitrary and only works for .68 caliber.

If it could be shown safe and accurate at a higher speed, it might be a better round than it presently is.



It won't matter.

Here's why -- let's assume for sake of argument that 450 FPS with a .50 paintball is "safe." Not saying it is (I don't know, but use some other guinea pig), but for sake of argument it is.

No matter how safe they prove it to be, it will never be allowed. Insurance companies will never go for it.



Not true. While I don't know if it's safe or if it flies straight. I do know that if you get a good lab (such as UL) to sign off on it, insurance companies typically will accept the decision and adjust.

We know that 300fps isn't a magic number, because airsoft rounds are shot at 450fps+. Insurance companies are smart enough to realize that there is a difference between a .68 cal and a .50 cal, just as there is a difference between paintball and airsoft.



Quote

They go for 300 because it's been a standard since before paintball field insurance arrived on the scene. It's the same reason many insurance companies actually mandate field paint only -- to "prevent modification or otherwise unsafe projectiles" or some such. It's why some fields won't allow nerf rounds for anti-tank/bunker -- because the insurance company won't allow it.

The point is, the insurance company gets the real final say. And I sincerely doubt they'll take the time and effort (and money) to confirm "oh, .50 is OK for velocity X."

They'll keep the standard universal since that's no work for them, and it's simpler for them too.



Of course, they're not going to spend the money, that isn't how it typically works. Insurance companies typically say, "Show us it is safe and we'll figure a way to insurance it." Does one company act irrational when it comes to paintball? Of course, but typically if you shop companies you'll find a reasonable one.

The real question is if there is a company who is willing to spend the 50-150K to test it. It's risky, but it could make what appears to be a crappy round a winner.
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#158 User is offline   LoneWolf99 

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 07:17 AM

DW - no worries, I wasn't trying to come off as confrontational or anything. I just dislike manufacturers putting something out there & making unsubstantiated claims about performance (when all of the testing goes the other way).

I wish people would stop harping on the insurance thing - at this point, it is a dead issue. Italia isn't challenging it (the 300fps) & the insurance companies have made a blanket statement that it is 300fps, regardless of caliber.

.50 has its place - it just isn't on a field that also shoots .68. Performance issues alone put .50 equipped players at a major disadvantage when facing .68 players - I prefer my paint to travel far & break often, which .50 hasn't shown it can do.

I think it will find a niche (indoor fields for example), but there are way too many downsides to make this a general issue thing.
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#159 Guest_Schecter_*

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 07:23 AM

If the industry turns towards it, there will be quite a few advancements. The current company pushing for it has already come up with a way to make a breakable shell.
I don't know about you guys but I personally would like cheaper paint.

Only problem is it turns every marker ever produced obsolete.

This post has been edited by Schecter: 26 November 2009 - 07:24 AM

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#160 User is offline   LoneWolf99 

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Posted 26 November 2009 - 11:11 AM

And what was the solution on the shell? Since it is exactly the same thickness as .68 is currently.

And no one has put out an official price list yet, so we have no idea if it is actually cheaper (and it will still be sold in 2000 round boxes). .50 can't make current markers obsolete - since .68 is a better projectile, hands-down.

This post has been edited by LoneWolf99: 26 November 2009 - 11:11 AM

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