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Racial Tension at UCSD Rate Topic: -----

#76 User is offline   Cuy'val Dar  

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:42 PM

I wouldnt say a rash... Maybe several isolated incidents, but rash is a bit strong.
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#77 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:26 PM

*momentary off topic hijacking in progress

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 4 2010, 08:19 PM, said:

Endgame? There is no endgame in the internet, didn't you know that? No one wins an argument or debate or whatever people presume to call what they are doing here...and really, debates don't influence perspective much, but rather instead increase polarization. Despite that, there are still plenty of losers.



Then why participate?

While yes, debates on the internet simply don't change opinions, they can be at times a great way to learn more about the other argument as well as your own.

So, in a way, it influences perspective. It makes the participants examine their own argument, and find better ways to justify their position. At the same time, it gives them other points from the other side to look into (and either confirm, debunk, or find a "you're right, but for the wrong reason" which builds your argument for the future)
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#78 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 08:41 PM

View PostWarpaint, on Mar 4 2010, 08:19 PM, said:

No, one of the points I am making is that a noose in a tree isn't a joke, it's intimidation. I doubt it's white supremacists, although maybe wannabes and an easy out, but really it's more likely just random white stupidity. My other point is, it's not the nitwits who hung the noose who are in the best position to decide whether it was hurtful, but the people who it was aimed at, hence my slapper and slappee analogy. It's like the bully who punches another kid in the arm, and when the kid cries and attracts the attention of others, the bully denies hitting the kid that hard...the kid is faking. How many people buy that when the bruise starts blooming? You claim you are having trouble understanding my points, but that appears to be more an issue of denial, than comprehension. Is all that rephrased enough for you?

Okay, you've rephrased it using almost exactly the same illustration as you used last time, so maybe I'll try rephrasing and maybe you'll see the part I'm trying to pick out here. First of all, at every single point, I've maintained that it was hurtful -- nobody's arguing against that (actually I think a couple of guys are, but more importantly, I'm not). The argument is whether or not it was intimidation -- or more specifically, as you said earlier, a "death threat." I said no, and you started giving me "a guy who gets slapped knows when he's been slapped" analogies. Sound about right? I'm not scrolling up, so feel free to correct me if I'm off the timeline.

The difference is that you're not accusing somebody of a "slap." You're accusing somebody of "looking like they were going to slap," or, once or twice, "doing things that people who slapped other people used to do, before they slapped them." Are you seeing the difference here? There's not going to be a bruise if the other kid cries about the bully looking scary. Maybe the bully was just fooling with him -- in which case it's called a "distasteful joke."
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#79 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:35 AM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Mar 4 2010, 05:05 AM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 4 2010, 02:27 AM, said:

If I'm so wrong, please show me the rash number of white's hanging nooses on campi. It should be simple. I made a statement of fact, if my fact is wrong (there is not a rash of whites hanging nooses on campi to intimidate blacks), then it should be simple to point me to the SPLC or such listing the "crimes".

That's not how debating works.... when you make a claim, YOU get to back it up. So, I guess I'm calling you on it. Source please?


No it is. I gave links to the claim in my first thread. It also isn't a claim that is hard to research. A quick "Fake noose campus" on google will give you tons of hits. You still haven't disputed the links.

Also, you don't understand logic and its use in debate seeking meaning (debate), otherwise you'd go after the other person's counter claim about whites and nooses in history because that statement is a fallacy of the respects. The entire second half of the First Law and Second Law's equation was violated by changing the respect (domain) and time.

The next thing you're going to tell me is that you can't prove a negative....?

There is a good number of hoaxes that have been perpetrated and caught in the last 15 years.

-Columbia University had a noose hung on the door of a professor in 2007. Ends up, it was the black professor herself who did it and used the chance to play the victim.
-Black high school student in CA in 2000 got in a fight, claimed it was skin heads who beat him up. Ends up he lied to keep it out of trouble for damaging his braces. Granted, no noose, but the point of a black person claiming falsely that racism occurred on campus still stands. Fake Hate-Crime.
-Ole Miss in 2002 had 3 blacks claim that there were racial statements and a noose hung up to intimidate them. Ends up that it was they themselves that did it.
-1997 at Duke, there was a noose hung up where the Blacks was suppose to meet for a rally. Guess what? It was blacks that faked the crime.
-In 2003 a black student made up racist slurs in order to get herself to move out of her dorm.
-Other fake racist slurs are written by other blacks at the school. See above link.
-At Trinity a black student sent fake hate letters in order to go home.
-Blacks admit to distributing White Supremacy material at UofL.

This isn't to mention the Anti-Islam, Anti-Homosexual, Anti-whatever minority group hoaxes that have occurred over the last 15 years. Even my school had a fake Muslim attack.

-Not on school, but the use of KKK fliers to shock black residents, was distributed by...blacks.
-Baltimore Fire Fighters found a noose hung after an issue with Affirmative Action. Ends up, it was a black man who hung it. Granted, not on campus, but the point still stands about nooses being faked.

Of course, I can't point to a study. I just went to my university's research database and they don't even have one study about hate-crime hoaxes. Not one, but think about it, who is going to do a sociology study or even a Criminal Justice study on racial hoaxes on campus. They'd lose their job in an instant and hell would come to them if even if they were tenured.

The final nail in the coffin to my claim being valid is that the AP even acknowledges there is a trend to faking hate crimes on campus.

Quote

At least 20 cases of suspected or confirmed hoaxes have occurred since 1997 nationwide – and many may go unnoticed, the Los Angeles Times reported.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/stat...rimehoaxes.html

This isn't a dissertation or a defense position, so I don't need to show a peer reviewed study of my position that good number of (I'd even bet if I was omniscient, it'd be a majority) hate crimes on campus are faked. This is nothing more than an internet forum where, I've met more than my burden of proof.

So far, the only example of recent noose hangings that are documented to be by white students in the last 5 years, that I have found through searching EBSCO and other journal search engines is the Jena Six noose hanging. But that wasn't used as a terrorizing. At least some see it as a prank, including the black scholar, John McWhorter

There are a number of cases where there is no evidence for or against it being a prank or being real.



I provided examples, seeing how nearly everytime a noose is hung, it is reported by the media. A search of noose hanging in newpapers typically end up being faked. I provided links above. I'm sorry, I'm not a Sociology Grad Student, so I don't have access to every single statistic, but I did provide links to faked noose hangings.

Then to make matter worse is that the FBI doesn't even keep exact statistics on faked hate crimes.

Go look at the reporting statistics for the latest year. Worse a review of their methodology doesn't even address hoaxes and how they are removed or counted. If a hoax is considered a hate crime, it goes up as a hate incident either way. There is a reason that the methodology is critiqued when it is used by groups like the SPLC for policy analysis.


Quote

The fact remains that contemporary hangings of it on campus, tend to be blacks who are faking racial tension.


I find it extremely ironic that the post that started this thread, forgot to mention a few things.

First, the Compton Cookout was done by a black guy. It wasn't the frats that decided to do the Cookout. It was a black guy.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=iGfFSZ2kcRg

So here we have a case of blacks making much ado about nothing. Worse, they aren't blaming themselves for the gimmick, when it was themselves that initiated the event.

Then ironies among ironies the female student that decided to hang the noose, ended up being black herself. Yet, I hear no apology from the people who were appalled at my prediction that it would be a black person who hung the noose. Nor do I see the person who originally posted the thread even reveal that major bit of data.

This post has been edited by Tim Burton: 05 March 2010 - 01:38 AM

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#80 User is offline   outlaw-master 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 02:18 AM

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Mar 4 2010, 05:05 AM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 4 2010, 02:27 AM, said:

If I'm so wrong, please show me the rash number of white's hanging nooses on campi. It should be simple. I made a statement of fact, if my fact is wrong (there is not a rash of whites hanging nooses on campi to intimidate blacks), then it should be simple to point me to the SPLC or such listing the "crimes".

That's not how debating works.... when you make a claim, YOU get to back it up. So, I guess I'm calling you on it. Source please?



Then ironies among ironies the female student that decided to hang the noose, ended up being black herself. Yet, I hear no apology from the people who were appalled at my prediction that it would be a black person who hung the noose. Nor do I see the person who originally posted the thread even reveal that major bit of data.[/b]



I want to see the link to prove your statement.

This post has been edited by outlaw-master: 05 March 2010 - 02:20 AM

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#81 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 02:35 AM

In 13 years, 20 hoaxes. And here we observe real research in its natural habitat
*Gasp* ANOTHER!

Burtons article, published in 2004, has 20 "suspected" or confirmed hate crime hoaxes since 1997. That's a total of 7 years. Nearly 2 a year. Both things I linked cite an FBI report done on 1998 hate crime statistics (ONE year) from 450 campuses, in 40 states (Which, I'm gonna point out, is a little smaller than "nationwide" infers, which Burton's article is based on). Of these, 222 school report hate crimes, to a total of 241 cases. 2 hoaxes per year, with a total of 241 cases. 2 is what percent of 241? Both links also point out, that due to problems with reporting, many hate crimes are not "reported" (as in, officially recorded).

"Several researchers also said the liberal atmosphere at many of the nation's colleges creates an environment ripe for deception." Says Burtons article. Yup. Liberals are to blame for hate crimes. Now, this forum isn't liberal by any means. But really?

Get out, and get a real article.

This post has been edited by ike123: 05 March 2010 - 03:11 AM

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#82 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:36 AM

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

Also, you don't understand logic and its use in debate seeking meaning (debate), otherwise you'd go after the other person's counter claim about whites and nooses in history because that statement is a fallacy of the respects. The entire second half of the First Law and Second Law's equation was violated by changing the respect (domain) and time.

The next thing you're going to tell me is that you can't prove a negative....?

LoL, nope. The next thing I'm going to tell you is that it's pretty GOLLY GEE WILIKERS disrespectful to tell me I don't understand logic. I asked you for a source. Now you're telling me I don't understand debate because some random-ass third party said something you don't agree with? I'm actually laughing, like, for real. No.

Also, this is what a source looks like. Not this.
To recap, source, not a source. Source, not a source.

This post has been edited by MurderDeathKill: 05 March 2010 - 03:53 AM

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#83 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:32 AM

View Postoutlaw-master, on Mar 5 2010, 02:18 AM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Mar 4 2010, 05:05 AM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 4 2010, 02:27 AM, said:

If I'm so wrong, please show me the rash number of white's hanging nooses on campi. It should be simple. I made a statement of fact, if my fact is wrong (there is not a rash of whites hanging nooses on campi to intimidate blacks), then it should be simple to point me to the SPLC or such listing the "crimes".

That's not how debating works.... when you make a claim, YOU get to back it up. So, I guess I'm calling you on it. Source please?



Then ironies among ironies the female student that decided to hang the noose, ended up being black herself. Yet, I hear no apology from the people who were appalled at my prediction that it would be a black person who hung the noose. Nor do I see the person who originally posted the thread even reveal that major bit of data.[/b]



I want to see the link to prove your statement.


"As a minority student who sympathizes with the students that have been affected by the recent issues on campus, I am distraught to know that I have unintentionally added to their pain."

I will say, since I actually know what I'm talking about, that recently it has come out she might not be black, but she still is a minority and was using it to hoax racial tensions on the campus.
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#84 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:33 AM

I am just going to weigh in here for a moment and say that statistics can be made to show, or support, any position that one wishes to represent.

So I don't care if Human Rights Watch, the FBI, Secret Squirrel Ultimate Pentagle, the United Nations, or some third party watch dog group collects and publishes statistics.

In and of themselves, they prove absolutely nothing.

*This comment is meant to be taken as an inflation adjusted .02, nothing more, nothing less. It is not directed specifically at either party.

EDIT:

Well, Outlaw, satisfied? Or is 'Whitey' still on the prowl?

This post has been edited by Ashrak: 05 March 2010 - 10:36 AM

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#85 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:41 AM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Mar 5 2010, 03:36 AM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

Also, you don't understand logic and its use in debate seeking meaning (debate), otherwise you'd go after the other person's counter claim about whites and nooses in history because that statement is a fallacy of the respects. The entire second half of the First Law and Second Law's equation was violated by changing the respect (domain) and time.

The next thing you're going to tell me is that you can't prove a negative....?

LoL, nope. The next thing I'm going to tell you is that it's pretty GOLLY GEE WILIKERS disrespectful to tell me I don't understand logic. I asked you for a source. Now you're telling me I don't understand debate because some random-ass third party said something you don't agree with? I'm actually laughing, like, for real. No.

Also, this is what a source looks like. Not this.
To recap, source, not a source. Source, not a source.


I already pointed out that racial hoax hate crimes is a topic that sociologist have no history of studying. It isn't because the numbers can't be tracked down, but because the FBI is towing a PC line that does not want to put hate crimes in a bad light (which is that there are a sizable percentage that are faked).

The sources were valid for those specific events. I showed that even the AP, which is considered valid source by the MSM for current events was able to find a string of hoaxes.

Your NCJRS "Source" doesn't even address hoaxes. Do a search for hoax and not one comment, link, methodological description even broaches the topic. Why? Because, catagorizing hoaxes as such, and statistically following the data would cause a black eye to the race baiters claiming "hate crimes".
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#86 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:45 AM

View PostAshrak, on Mar 5 2010, 11:33 AM, said:

I am just going to weigh in here for a moment and say that statistics can be made to show, or support, any position that one wishes to represent.

So I don't care if Human Rights Watch, the FBI, Secret Squirrel Ultimate Pentagle, the United Nations, or some third party watch dog group collects and publishes statistics.

In and of themselves, they prove absolutely nothing.

*This comment is meant to be taken as an inflation adjusted .02, nothing more, nothing less. It is not directed specifically at either party.


There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. - Mark Twain (who attributed it elsewhere)
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#87 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 10:53 AM

View Postike123, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

In 13 years, 20 hoaxes. And here we observe real research in its natural habitat
*Gasp* ANOTHER!

Burtons article, published in 2004, has 20 "suspected" or confirmed hate crime hoaxes since 1997. That's a total of 7 years. Nearly 2 a year. Both things I linked cite an FBI report done on 1998 hate crime statistics (ONE year) from 450 campuses, in 40 states (Which, I'm gonna point out, is a little smaller than "nationwide" infers, which Burton's article is based on). Of these, 222 school report hate crimes, to a total of 241 cases. 2 hoaxes per year, with a total of 241 cases. 2 is what percent of 241? Both links also point out, that due to problems with reporting, many hate crimes are not "reported" (as in, officially recorded).

"Several researchers also said the liberal atmosphere at many of the nation's colleges creates an environment ripe for deception." Says Burtons article. Yup. Liberals are to blame for hate crimes. Now, this forum isn't liberal by any means. But really?

Get out, and get a real article.


The statistics can lie. Even worse, is that a "hate crime" is counted, even if it was never proven a white person did it. If a swastika shows up on campus, it is listed as a hate crime, even if we never catch the person who put it up. This means statistical methodology can have inflated numbers because:

Person puts up noose.

If the person is never caught it is labeled by the FBI as a hate incident. This is irrespective of whether the real person who hung it was black or white.

ASU had 3 anti-Muslim incidents a few years ago. Ends up that 2 of them were known to have been faked. The 3rd was never proven to be faked. It is still listed as a hate incident. The problem is that it had many of the signature issues that the first two did.

So there you go talking about statistical gap and yet you don't even understand the methodological failure of the statistic.

The fact still remains that the majority of high profile noose hanging incidents on campus in the last 15 years have been committed by minority students themselves. The only major one what was hung by whites was the Jena 6. I guess you could maybe count the KC incident that had a "string" that was given to a student, as a white person using a noose to intimidate a black.
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#88 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 01:26 PM

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 5 2010, 09:53 AM, said:

View Postike123, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

In 13 years, 20 hoaxes. And here we observe real research in its natural habitat
*Gasp* ANOTHER!

Burtons article, published in 2004, has 20 "suspected" or confirmed hate crime hoaxes since 1997. That's a total of 7 years. Nearly 2 a year. Both things I linked cite an FBI report done on 1998 hate crime statistics (ONE year) from 450 campuses, in 40 states (Which, I'm gonna point out, is a little smaller than "nationwide" infers, which Burton's article is based on). Of these, 222 school report hate crimes, to a total of 241 cases. 2 hoaxes per year, with a total of 241 cases. 2 is what percent of 241? Both links also point out, that due to problems with reporting, many hate crimes are not "reported" (as in, officially recorded).

"Several researchers also said the liberal atmosphere at many of the nation's colleges creates an environment ripe for deception." Says Burtons article. Yup. Liberals are to blame for hate crimes. Now, this forum isn't liberal by any means. But really?

Get out, and get a real article.


The statistics can lie. Even worse, is that a "hate crime" is counted, even if it was never proven a white person did it. If a swastika shows up on campus, it is listed as a hate crime, even if we never catch the person who put it up. This means statistical methodology can have inflated numbers because:

Person puts up noose.

If the person is never caught it is labeled by the FBI as a hate incident. This is irrespective of whether the real person who hung it was black or white.

ASU had 3 anti-Muslim incidents a few years ago. Ends up that 2 of them were known to have been faked. The 3rd was never proven to be faked. It is still listed as a hate incident. The problem is that it had many of the signature issues that the first two did.

So there you go talking about statistical gap and yet you don't even understand the methodological failure of the statistic.

The fact still remains that the majority of high profile noose hanging incidents on campus in the last 15 years have been committed by minority students themselves. The only major one what was hung by whites was the Jena 6. I guess you could maybe count the KC incident that had a "string" that was given to a student, as a white person using a noose to intimidate a black.

So, are you gonna prove anything, or are you just gonna make some more assumptions?
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#89 User is offline   outlaw-master 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:03 PM

View Postike123, on Mar 5 2010, 02:26 PM, said:

View PostTim Burton, on Mar 5 2010, 09:53 AM, said:

View Postike123, on Mar 5 2010, 02:35 AM, said:

In 13 years, 20 hoaxes. And here we observe real research in its natural habitat
*Gasp* ANOTHER!

Burtons article, published in 2004, has 20 "suspected" or confirmed hate crime hoaxes since 1997. That's a total of 7 years. Nearly 2 a year. Both things I linked cite an FBI report done on 1998 hate crime statistics (ONE year) from 450 campuses, in 40 states (Which, I'm gonna point out, is a little smaller than "nationwide" infers, which Burton's article is based on). Of these, 222 school report hate crimes, to a total of 241 cases. 2 hoaxes per year, with a total of 241 cases. 2 is what percent of 241? Both links also point out, that due to problems with reporting, many hate crimes are not "reported" (as in, officially recorded).

"Several researchers also said the liberal atmosphere at many of the nation's colleges creates an environment ripe for deception." Says Burtons article. Yup. Liberals are to blame for hate crimes. Now, this forum isn't liberal by any means. But really?

Get out, and get a real article.


The statistics can lie. Even worse, is that a "hate crime" is counted, even if it was never proven a white person did it. If a swastika shows up on campus, it is listed as a hate crime, even if we never catch the person who put it up. This means statistical methodology can have inflated numbers because:

Person puts up noose.

If the person is never caught it is labeled by the FBI as a hate incident. This is irrespective of whether the real person who hung it was black or white.

ASU had 3 anti-Muslim incidents a few years ago. Ends up that 2 of them were known to have been faked. The 3rd was never proven to be faked. It is still listed as a hate incident. The problem is that it had many of the signature issues that the first two did.

So there you go talking about statistical gap and yet you don't even understand the methodological failure of the statistic.

The fact still remains that the majority of high profile noose hanging incidents on campus in the last 15 years have been committed by minority students themselves. The only major one what was hung by whites was the Jena 6. I guess you could maybe count the KC incident that had a "string" that was given to a student, as a white person using a noose to intimidate a black.

So, are you gonna prove anything, or are you just gonna make some more assumptions?


It's pretty much pointless even debating with him, he proves absolutely no facts, he only states his opinion.

Note: Burton your opinion doesn't = fact.

View PostAshrak, on Mar 5 2010, 11:33 AM, said:

I am just going to weigh in here for a moment and say that statistics can be made to show, or support, any position that one wishes to represent.

So I don't care if Human Rights Watch, the FBI, Secret Squirrel Ultimate Pentagle, the United Nations, or some third party watch dog group collects and publishes statistics.

In and of themselves, they prove absolutely nothing.

*This comment is meant to be taken as an inflation adjusted .02, nothing more, nothing less. It is not directed specifically at either party.

EDIT:

Well, Outlaw, satisfied? Or is 'Whitey' still on the prowl?



So minority automatically equals black? Because I was questioning burton after he said a black girl left the noose in the library.
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#90 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 03:08 PM

View Postoutlaw-master, on Mar 5 2010, 04:03 PM, said:

So minority automatically equals black? Because I was questioning burton after he said a black girl left the noose in the library.


Ash's point was that it wasn't "whitey" who did it.

Unless you're saying all non-blacks are "whitey." And then, we still don't know for sure. The news is choosing not to specify anything beyond "non-Caucasian"

This post has been edited by Thalion: 05 March 2010 - 03:09 PM

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