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Do clones have souls? title says it all.

#16 User is offline   Xakk 

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Posted 12 November 2009 - 07:45 PM

A Deist believes that there is a super natural being that started creation (or what we call creation-big bang) and that's all they believe (no bible). Basically saying that science explains everything but the big bang... that must have been done by a god like creature. Until we find the god particle. Then Deist will believe that a god like creature created the god particle, which lead to the big bang... and on and on.

if you dont have a religion, or your on the fence, your Agnostic (also known by Christians as "faithless").
if you believe there is no such thing as a god or faith, or believe religion in general is retarded, your Atheist.
if you believe that satan is the rightful ruler of heaven, and god is a prick, then your Satanic.
if you believe in god, but not christ, your a Jew.
if you believe in god and christ, your some sort of Christian.
if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, your Pastafarian(as a Deist, I see this religion to be just as viable as any other).
if you believe in some other god or scenario, google is the answer to all of your questions.... 42! :laugh:

Hope that helps. But over all, even if clones dont have souls, they can fight wars and no one would care. If they do, hurray for us! We can make souls!(since the invention of humping... and now cloning makes it... even less personal) Thats something that "Lucifer" cant even do.
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#17 User is offline   slowerpig81 

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 03:06 PM

I do not believe in souls. Let me state that I am an Objectivist.

Souls are defined by your belief/faith, not science. Therefore there is no scientific answer.

An organism that is a clone doesn't have different biological processes that one that is produced normally, not including natural variance of these processes.

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I asked the bishop of the local dioceys (however you spell it) and he said because they would be artificial they would not have souls.

A clone is not artificial. This bishop is not a scientist and is wrong. If you want answers on scientific topics, ask a scientist, not a member of clergy.

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I know what a clone is; an exact replica of whatever it is cloned of.

Like I.K.E. stated clones are not exact replicas. This is impossible in complex organisms, especially ones with a consciousness, since this is shaped by the world around it and other biological factors, known or unknown, explainable or not.
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#18 User is offline   CamoDeafie 

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Posted 13 November 2009 - 03:58 PM

related to the topic..last night i just watched Star Trek: the Motion Picture (1979) with William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, and so on.....V'ger/Vejur is an apparently alien ship that speaks english (or is that the universal translator??) that is entirely automatic....a machine so to speak....one that has gained consciousness after gathering all the knowledge in the universe, and has an existential crisis (is this all i am? is there nothing more? am i nothing more than what i know?) and is basically a new lifeform of sorts.....merging with Decker to experience a higher being , let me put it this way, if you had gained all the knowledge of the universe, with a basic logic train, (machine intelligence) would you still have a soul if devoid of emotion or feelings?
also related, Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence, something about being to something of no conscience, or of infinite conscience, ergo, of animals and gods...I cannot remember the phrase (another excuse to watch the dvd! yupippee!!)
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#19 User is offline   dextonik 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 08:48 PM

View PostXakk, on Nov 12 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

A Deist believes that there is a super natural being that started creation (or what we call creation-big bang) and that's all they believe (no bible). Basically saying that science explains everything but the big bang... that must have been done by a god like creature. Until we find the god particle. Then Deist will believe that a god like creature created the god particle, which lead to the big bang... and on and on.

if you dont have a religion, or your on the fence, your Agnostic (also known by Christians as "faithless").
if you believe there is no such thing as a god or faith, or believe religion in general is retarded, your Atheist.
if you believe that satan is the rightful ruler of heaven, and god is a prick, then your Satanic.
if you believe in god, but not christ, your a Jew.
if you believe in god and christ, your some sort of Christian.
if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, your Pastafarian(as a Deist, I see this religion to be just as viable as any other).
if you believe in some other god or scenario, google is the answer to all of your questions.... 42! :)

Hope that helps. But over all, even if clones dont have souls, they can fight wars and no one would care. If they do, hurray for us! We can make souls!(since the invention of humping... and now cloning makes it... even less personal) Thats something that "Lucifer" cant even do.

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#20 User is offline   Cuy'val Dar  

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 09:33 PM

View Postdextonik, on Nov 14 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

View PostXakk, on Nov 12 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

A Deist believes that there is a super natural being that started creation (or what we call creation-big bang) and that's all they believe (no bible). Basically saying that science explains everything but the big bang... that must have been done by a god like creature. Until we find the god particle. Then Deist will believe that a god like creature created the god particle, which lead to the big bang... and on and on.

if you dont have a religion, or your on the fence, your Agnostic (also known by Christians as "faithless").
if you believe there is no such thing as a god or faith, or believe religion in general is retarded, your Atheist.
if you believe that satan is the rightful ruler of heaven, and god is a prick, then your Satanic.
if you believe in god, but not christ, your a Jew.
if you believe in god and christ, your some sort of Christian.
if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, your Pastafarian(as a Deist, I see this religion to be just as viable as any other).
if you believe in some other god or scenario, google is the answer to all of your questions.... 42! :)

Hope that helps. But over all, even if clones dont have souls, they can fight wars and no one would care. If they do, hurray for us! We can make souls!(since the invention of humping... and now cloning makes it... even less personal) Thats something that "Lucifer" cant even do.

yep, I'm going to hell. wait I'm already in hell.


New Jersey?
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#21 User is offline   Puzuma 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 09:47 PM

The problem isn't that clones don't have souls. It's that by creating clones we may prove humans are the ones without.
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#22 User is offline   Self Medicated 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 09:51 PM

View Postpvt. Leonard L. Church, on Nov 14 2009, 08:33 PM, said:

View Postdextonik, on Nov 14 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

View PostXakk, on Nov 12 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

A Deist believes that there is a super natural being that started creation (or what we call creation-big bang) and that's all they believe (no bible). Basically saying that science explains everything but the big bang... that must have been done by a god like creature. Until we find the god particle. Then Deist will believe that a god like creature created the god particle, which lead to the big bang... and on and on.

if you dont have a religion, or your on the fence, your Agnostic (also known by Christians as "faithless").
if you believe there is no such thing as a god or faith, or believe religion in general is retarded, your Atheist.
if you believe that satan is the rightful ruler of heaven, and god is a prick, then your Satanic.
if you believe in god, but not christ, your a Jew.
if you believe in god and christ, your some sort of Christian.
if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, your Pastafarian(as a Deist, I see this religion to be just as viable as any other).
if you believe in some other god or scenario, google is the answer to all of your questions.... 42! :laugh:

Hope that helps. But over all, even if clones dont have souls, they can fight wars and no one would care. If they do, hurray for us! We can make souls!(since the invention of humping... and now cloning makes it... even less personal) Thats something that "Lucifer" cant even do.

yep, I'm going to hell. wait I'm already in hell.


New Jersey?


Or as John Stewart calls it, "Stinkachusetts".
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#23 User is offline   dextonik 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 10:20 PM

View PostSelf Medicated, on Nov 14 2009, 09:51 PM, said:

View Postpvt. Leonard L. Church, on Nov 14 2009, 08:33 PM, said:

View Postdextonik, on Nov 14 2009, 09:48 PM, said:

View PostXakk, on Nov 12 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

A Deist believes that there is a super natural being that started creation (or what we call creation-big bang) and that's all they believe (no bible). Basically saying that science explains everything but the big bang... that must have been done by a god like creature. Until we find the god particle. Then Deist will believe that a god like creature created the god particle, which lead to the big bang... and on and on.

if you dont have a religion, or your on the fence, your Agnostic (also known by Christians as "faithless").
if you believe there is no such thing as a god or faith, or believe religion in general is retarded, your Atheist.
if you believe that satan is the rightful ruler of heaven, and god is a prick, then your Satanic.
if you believe in god, but not christ, your a Jew.
if you believe in god and christ, your some sort of Christian.
if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, your Pastafarian(as a Deist, I see this religion to be just as viable as any other).
if you believe in some other god or scenario, google is the answer to all of your questions.... 42! :laugh:

Hope that helps. But over all, even if clones dont have souls, they can fight wars and no one would care. If they do, hurray for us! We can make souls!(since the invention of humping... and now cloning makes it... even less personal) Thats something that "Lucifer" cant even do.

yep, I'm going to hell. wait I'm already in hell.


New Jersey?


Or as John Stewart calls it, "Stinkachusetts".

not quite new jersey, but close enough.
If you can't hack it, then I suggest you pack it!
I'm on it like white on rice, with a glass of milk in a snow storm.
Doesn't matter what gun you have, as long as you can hit what you're looking at.
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#24 User is offline   I.K.E. 

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Posted 14 November 2009 - 10:44 PM

View PostPuzuma, on Nov 14 2009, 10:47 PM, said:

The problem isn't that clones don't have souls. It's that by creating clones we may prove humans are the ones without.


Clever....disagree.....but clever nonetheless.
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#25 User is offline   Dib 

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 08:32 PM

View PostThalion, on Nov 11 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

View PostDib, on Nov 11 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

Don't even get me started on Free Will in religion :evil: , self-defeating much?!?


The concept as a whole is, "there's right and wrong, but God's hands-off to a point, so you get to choose what you do and accept whatever consequences result."

You cannot make your own decision if there is a creator that knows what that decision is going to be. You would not change your reality in any way. You would only be following a path predetermined by this creator, because it knows what you will decide beforehand and make its plan accordingly before you even made the decision. In no way is that Free Will. That is Fate. Omnipotence precludes Free Will.

On topic, what makes a soul? Is it an actual physical or spiritual thing, or is it merely an abject term we use to define the collection of experiences a single entity has while it exists? I guess the root of the problem lies in your definition of Soul (and I'm not talking Wikipedia here :P ) Is it divine in its origin, or is it something every living thing has?
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#26 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 08:36 PM

Every living thing is of divine origin, though humans are the only ones given souls because we are a higher existence than mere animals.

(And I say that as an animal lover.)

This post has been edited by Ashrak: 15 November 2009 - 08:44 PM

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#27 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 15 November 2009 - 09:04 PM

View PostDib, on Nov 15 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

View PostThalion, on Nov 11 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

View PostDib, on Nov 11 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

Don't even get me started on Free Will in religion :evil: , self-defeating much?!?


The concept as a whole is, "there's right and wrong, but God's hands-off to a point, so you get to choose what you do and accept whatever consequences result."

You cannot make your own decision if there is a creator that knows what that decision is going to be. You would not change your reality in any way. You would only be following a path predetermined by this creator, because it knows what you will decide beforehand and make its plan accordingly before you even made the decision. In no way is that Free Will. That is Fate. Omnipotence precludes Free Will.


Not quite...

Let's try a "what if" type scenario.

Suppose I could travel through time. I use that to go ahead one full year and observe (without interference, just observation) your actions on that given day.

Suppose I return to the "present" (being defined as the moment at which I leaped forward to the future).

I know what you're going to do a year from now. Does that mean you have no choice in what you did?

While not exactly the same, the basic idea is the same - an omnipotent being (regardless of if your choice being for sake of discussion is God, Star Trek's "Q," or whoever/whatever else) is outside time as we know it. The only reason they would know the future is because they've seen it and to them, it's not the future.

You had the free will to choose, they only know because they've observed you making the choice.


Quote

On topic, what makes a soul? Is it an actual physical or spiritual thing, or is it merely an abject term we use to define the collection of experiences a single entity has while it exists? I guess the root of the problem lies in your definition of Soul (and I'm not talking Wikipedia here :P ) Is it divine in its origin, or is it something every living thing has?


And here we arrive at a dilemma - when people refer to "soul," are they referring to "the essence of a given person" (personality, will, ambitions, dreams, emotions) or are they referring to an eternal creature (such as a spirit/ghost/whatever)?

Mankind is the only life we know of who can make a long term goal, who can create something they dream of (be it their own business, artwork, or anything else we create).

Sure, some intelligent animals are capable of solving puzzles -- for a short term reward (such as acquiring a treat). An animal can't work towards a long term goal without immediate positive feedback. They don't dream (at least, not in the sense of wanting something and pursuing it).

Animals are largely driven by instincts. Man, while having some instincts, is largely driven by logic (even if the logic is flawed, it's still usually a rational process instead of just automated responses to a situation).

The capacity for reasoning beyond short term problem solving, while not exclusive, is part of what sets us apart.

As for your definition, I would define a "soul" as the combination of a unique personality, with thoughts/dreams/ambitions/emotions and a capacity to reason without instinct.

Sort of like Descartes 'I think therefore I am.'

From that basis, it's obvious (to me anyway) that a clone would have a "soul" - in fact, quite likely one very different from the original.

In the sense of a "spirit," I would still argue a clone would likely have one, because all children, including natural clones, would be born with one.
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#28 User is offline   Dib 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 04:13 PM

View PostThalion, on Nov 15 2009, 08:04 PM, said:

View PostDib, on Nov 15 2009, 09:32 PM, said:

View PostThalion, on Nov 11 2009, 04:48 PM, said:

View PostDib, on Nov 11 2009, 06:10 PM, said:

Don't even get me started on Free Will in religion :P , self-defeating much?!?


The concept as a whole is, "there's right and wrong, but God's hands-off to a point, so you get to choose what you do and accept whatever consequences result."

You cannot make your own decision if there is a creator that knows what that decision is going to be. You would not change your reality in any way. You would only be following a path predetermined by this creator, because it knows what you will decide beforehand and make its plan accordingly before you even made the decision. In no way is that Free Will. That is Fate. Omnipotence precludes Free Will.


Not quite...

Let's try a "what if" type scenario.

Suppose I could travel through time. I use that to go ahead one full year and observe (without interference, just observation) your actions on that given day.

Suppose I return to the "present" (being defined as the moment at which I leaped forward to the future).

I know what you're going to do a year from now. Does that mean you have no choice in what you did?

While not exactly the same, the basic idea is the same - an omnipotent being (regardless of if your choice being for sake of discussion is God, Star Trek's "Q," or whoever/whatever else) is outside time as we know it. The only reason they would know the future is because they've seen it and to them, it's not the future.

You had the free will to choose, they only know because they've observed you making the choice.


I get what your saying, but:
I understand that "If" you could travel in time it might seem to you that you were omnipotent, but you are still a human with limited knowledge of events. You also don't have a plan for me, as is so popular in religion now a days. "God has a Plan for You!" is all you hear at church when you got a problem that can't immediately be solved.

The point I was trying to make is simply; You can have Free Will or an Omnipotent God, but not both.


I totally agree with the rest of your post :P , just throwing the questions out there as they come.
If he rips my arms off, I'll kick him to death.
If he rips my legs off, I'll bite him to death.
If he rips my head off, I'll stare him to death.
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#29 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 16 November 2009 - 08:33 PM

View PostDib, on Nov 16 2009, 05:13 PM, said:


I understand that "If" you could travel in time it might seem to you that you were omnipotent, but you are still a human with limited knowledge of events. You also don't have a plan for me, as is so popular in religion now a days. "God has a Plan for You!" is all you hear at church when you got a problem that can't immediately be solved.

The point I was trying to make is simply; You can have Free Will or an Omnipotent God, but not both.


While it is true the analogy isn't perfect, I'm not sure how increasing the knowledge base of the traveler will affect the outcome. Or to say -- how does one individual knowing everything (from observation) automatically mean that free will doesn't exist?

I don't see the two as mutually exclusive.

Where did the plan part come in? Ok, I know a lot of religious teachings say there's one. I mean how does it alter the argument.

Suppose I, for whatever reason, had a plan. I wanted you to, a year from now, do X. Suppose I skip ahead to see what you do, but do not directly interfere in your actions.

Did my plan alter your outcome, since I didn't force it?

Ignoring the "is there a plan or not" debate (I'm trying to keep personal beliefs or what I think is true to a minimum, and focus largely on the "given this premise, I reach this conclusion" type arguing.) -- does having a plan automatically negate a choice to either follow that plan or to not? I'm looking at it as, "Given that God exists, has a plan, and doesn't actively influence your free will, then it's reasonable to conclude I can either follow all the plan, part of the plan, or none of the plan." On the other hand, if there is no plan, then I still have free will to decide what to do with myself.


Again, I don't see the mutual exclusion you are seeing. Please, enlighten me. Philosophical discussions can be fun.

Quote

I totally agree with the rest of your post :P , just throwing the questions out there as they come.


I like questions - they make you think about what you believe and why.

So why do you believe the existence of an omnipotent being automatically would exclude free will? Is it because you believe that said omnipotent being couldn't possibly resist interference, or something else entirely?
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#30 User is offline   McClellen 

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Posted 28 November 2009 - 02:30 PM

View PostAce-014, on Nov 12 2009, 08:04 PM, said:

To put it simply, to answer the question while covering all bases...

Either everything that is alive has a soul.

or

Everything that is alive doesn't not have a soul.

You choose which one. Depending on your beliefs, there is no wrong answer.



Agreed.
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