Special Ops Paintball: Some of my thoughts on paintball - Special Ops Paintball

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Some of my thoughts on paintball Rate Topic: -----

#1 Guest_Schecter_*

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 11:49 AM

Okay, I have been playing on and off but keeping tabs on the paintball community for the past 7 years. So, you can know I am not some newbie trying to act like I know what I am talking about.

Also, above all, keep in mind these are my OPINIONS.

Everything is in quotes to keep it organized.

.50 caliber transition said:

It seems every kid thinks that .50 cal is going to replace .68 overnight and we are going to use those hard pellets they used to call .50 cal paintballs. The reason .50 cal wasn't released isn't because they are trying to develope guns, they already have working models, a visit to youtube or pbnations .50 cal forum will give you a list of the guns. You also won't be forced to go out and buy all new gear, true you may have to buy some stuff, but a lot will be the same. All of the companies are working on both dedicated .50 cal guns and adapters to make current .68 guns shoot .50 cal.
The reason .50 cal gear hasn't been released is because the paintballs aren't ready. You will see people argue until they are blue in the face that .50 cal isn't as good as .68 cal. Well, look at how long it took .68 cal to reach this point. .68 used to be something that would stain clothes, it used to be injected and if you squeezed a paintball paint would squirt out. But you look at current paintballs and you see quite a bit of improvement over the last 10-15 years. When .50 cal paint is released we can expect to see them perform as well or better than current .68 paint. Not only that but it will be cheaper. Nothing beats getting 3k paintballs for what you were paying for 2k.
Also, like I said it won't be overnight, expect to see for the next year or two for .68 to be just as easy to get as .50, .50 may even be more rare than .68 for awhile. Since so few companies will be making the jump.
Then you have people complaining about having to buy all new equipment, first there will be all levels and prices of .50, from high end to entry level, and if players had a problem buying new guns why are there so many luxes and ego10's floating around pbnation's b/s/t?

What is .50 cal? It's fear of change, though when you look at it, by the time .50 takes over 90% of players who used .68 won't even be playing anymore. People with 08 join dates on pbnation talking in gearbag sale about how they are quitting paintball and selling all their stuff. .50 is going to happen, and personally I am excited to see some change. Good paint is getting expensive and cheap paint seems to be getting worse and worse.


smartparts said:

You see smartparts hate all the time from people who didn't know what paintball was back when the case actually took place. Then completely ignore what smartparts has actually done for the sport.
The ion, it forced every company out there to start making cheaper guns, it used to be if you didnt want a tippmann, spyder or brass eagle expect to shell out over $1,000 for a new gun. Now, you have the mini, G3, PMR, 09 electra, or SLG. All great guns for very cheap prices.
I am by no means condoning what they did to AKA, but it's not like the company went out of business, and the viking wasn't even evolving. AKA is also free to make as many mech guns as it wants, why hasn't it? AKA has no drive to make anything new and everything they sell is overpriced.
Back to smartparts, people complained about the NXT coming with poor stock parts. The NXT is also only $500, and then look at other 1,000 guns. People buy a timmy which at one time, new was 1100+ then replace everything. Despite many of those upgrades being worse than what came with bob's gun. People just like to spend money, SP knew people were going to replace the bolt, reg, board, trigger etc, so why drive up the cost by trying to put something overly nice in it?


eclipse said:

The company I think has a worse track record than SP is eclipse. Come out with a gun with obvious flaws, with an operating system that is a carbon copy of the intimidator/BKO/impulse. What flaws you ask?
-Firstly the chamber is too large for a paintball, hence the need for the cure bolt, you'll notice they still haven't bothered to fix this because the ego10 still comes with a cure bolt. The cure bolt has 2 Orings on the front, what for? What is it sealing? All it does is prevent the cure bolt from doing it's job which is allowing the top paintball to slide up the bolt.
-Then they put QEVs on the ego, guess what? They don't work; which is why the ego10 doesn't have QEVs. I don't know the finer details, but evidently they helped cycle rate at the cost of consistency.

This from a 1200 gun, for what? An 06 ego with milling?


the ion said:

I think, among other things, the ion put smart parts out of business, but helped sooo many aftermarket companies. They are the new age autococker, just like you used to be able to fabricate a cocker entirely out of aftermarket parts, same is true of an ion. Best of all they were cheap, they were simple to make, however I don't think SP made the profit margin they were hoping. While other companies may make $400-500 per marker, SP probably only pulled less than $100.
They did however encourage other companies to come out with cheaper guns. A timmy used to cost $1200, now a vice is $800; just one example that springs to mind. You also have the mini, G3, PMR, 09 electra, SLG, etc.


smartparts closing it's doors said:

Smartparts is a corporation, in developing Deluxe and GI they had to pull on SP's line of credit. They laid off a bunch of workers, but everyone in America did. They are also the only company to make a gun at the price of the ion in America. Since SP is a corporation the Gardner brothers aren't liable for the debts. Once SP shuts their doors the debts go with it. They will pick back up with GI making the impulse, and shocker over there, plus a .50 cal version of each and DLX making the luxe.


Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. I am sure I will get plenty of flak from the people who don't agree with me.
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#2 User is offline   Florentine 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 04:41 PM

I agree with you 100% and it is pathetic how little people really know. Here is what I think, the people that bash companies are the 1-2 year players. The ones that are not newbs, but haven't gained respect or skill completely. It's the people that are 14-16 years old, been playing for about 2 years, and think they are the tough doo-doo because they own a high end marker.
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#3 User is offline   Marauder_Pilot 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 07:22 PM

View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 11:49 AM, said:

Okay, I have been playing on and off but keeping tabs on the paintball community for the past 7 years. So, you can know I am not some newbie trying to act like I know what I am talking about.

Also, above all, keep in mind these are my OPINIONS.

Everything is in quotes to keep it organized.

.50 caliber transition said:

It seems every kid thinks that .50 cal is going to replace .68 overnight and we are going to use those hard pellets they used to call .50 cal paintballs. The reason .50 cal wasn't released isn't because they are trying to develope guns, they already have working models, a visit to youtube or pbnations .50 cal forum will give you a list of the guns. You also won't be forced to go out and buy all new gear, true you may have to buy some stuff, but a lot will be the same. All of the companies are working on both dedicated .50 cal guns and adapters to make current .68 guns shoot .50 cal.
The reason .50 cal gear hasn't been released is because the paintballs aren't ready. You will see people argue until they are blue in the face that .50 cal isn't as good as .68 cal. Well, look at how long it took .68 cal to reach this point. .68 used to be something that would stain clothes, it used to be injected and if you squeezed a paintball paint would squirt out. But you look at current paintballs and you see quite a bit of improvement over the last 10-15 years. When .50 cal paint is released we can expect to see them perform as well or better than current .68 paint. Not only that but it will be cheaper. Nothing beats getting 3k paintballs for what you were paying for 2k.
Also, like I said it won't be overnight, expect to see for the next year or two for .68 to be just as easy to get as .50, .50 may even be more rare than .68 for awhile. Since so few companies will be making the jump.
Then you have people complaining about having to buy all new equipment, first there will be all levels and prices of .50, from high end to entry level, and if players had a problem buying new guns why are there so many luxes and ego10's floating around pbnation's b/s/t?

What is .50 cal? It's fear of change, though when you look at it, by the time .50 takes over 90% of players who used .68 won't even be playing anymore. People with 08 join dates on pbnation talking in gearbag sale about how they are quitting paintball and selling all their stuff. .50 is going to happen, and personally I am excited to see some change. Good paint is getting expensive and cheap paint seems to be getting worse and worse.


Flat-out wrong. There's a reason that .68 is the industry standard and not .50, .55, .60, .62, .43, .34 or any of the other NUMEROUS calibers that have been released and achieved some sort of importance over the years. All you need to do is look at the only caliber there that still sees production-.43. There's plenty of guns out there that use it and a fair amount of paint suppliers, yet it languishes in obscurity because, ballistically, it sucks compared to .68. .50 paint, even if they manage to fix the breakage problems, the sizing problems and the production problems, it still means that we either have to ramp up field velocities (Which the insurance companies won't allow, bar none-.43 is in the same boat, but you can't ramp it up to balance it out) or take a 25% range decrease in the sport.

.50 isn't going to work. We tried it back in the '80s and '90s. It didn't work then. It's not going to work now.

Quote

smartparts said:

You see smartparts hate all the time from people who didn't know what paintball was back when the case actually took place. Then completely ignore what smartparts has actually done for the sport.
The ion, it forced every company out there to start making cheaper guns, it used to be if you didnt want a tippmann, spyder or brass eagle expect to shell out over $1,000 for a new gun. Now, you have the mini, G3, PMR, 09 electra, or SLG. All great guns for very cheap prices.
I am by no means condoning what they did to AKA, but it's not like the company went out of business, and the viking wasn't even evolving. AKA is also free to make as many mech guns as it wants, why hasn't it? AKA has no drive to make anything new and everything they sell is overpriced.
Back to smartparts, people complained about the NXT coming with poor stock parts. The NXT is also only $500, and then look at other 1,000 guns. People buy a timmy which at one time, new was 1100+ then replace everything. Despite many of those upgrades being worse than what came with bob's gun. People just like to spend money, SP knew people were going to replace the bolt, reg, board, trigger etc, so why drive up the cost by trying to put something overly nice in it?

If you don't think the Viking is evolving, you've yet to hear Aaron Alexander's plans for what he WOULD have done had AKA not gone out of business. Sadly, the thread on PBN has since been deleted, but the fact that a Viking can still stand among modern electros says something.

AKA went out because Aaron did not agree with the direction the sport was taking, and because he could see the writing on the wall for mechanicals. The only mid-range or high-end mechs on the market, pistols notwithstanding, are AGDs and Palmers, (IIRC, ICE has closed) and they're obscure-at-best in the real world.

Quote

eclipse said:

The company I think has a worse track record than SP is eclipse. Come out with a gun with obvious flaws, with an operating system that is a carbon copy of the intimidator/BKO/impulse. What flaws you ask?
-Firstly the chamber is too large for a paintball, hence the need for the cure bolt, you'll notice they still haven't bothered to fix this because the ego10 still comes with a cure bolt. The cure bolt has 2 Orings on the front, what for? What is it sealing? All it does is prevent the cure bolt from doing it's job which is allowing the top paintball to slide up the bolt.
-Then they put QEVs on the ego, guess what? They don't work; which is why the ego10 doesn't have QEVs. I don't know the finer details, but evidently they helped cycle rate at the cost of consistency.

This from a 1200 gun, for what? An 06 ego with milling?

Welcome to every high-end manufacturer in the business. They don't fix it because people want to keep buying new guns. Don't blame the companies, blame the agglets.

Quote

the ion said:

I think, among other things, the ion put smart parts out of business, but helped sooo many aftermarket companies. They are the new age autococker, jus like you used to be able to fabricate a cocker entirely out of aftermarket parts, same is true of an ion. Best of all they were cheap, they were simple to make, however I don't think SP made the profit margin they were hoping. While other companies may make $400-500 per marker, SP probably only pulled less than $100.
They did however encourage other companies to come out with cheaper guns. A timmy used to cost $1200, now a vice is $800; just one example that springs to mind. You also have the mini, G3, PMR, 09 electra, SLG, etc.

lolwut? The Ion is what made Smart Parts the company it is today. Prior to them, they really only had the Shocker and Impulse-two fairly large guns, but neither could beat the sales of stuff like the BKO/Bushmaster or original Angels. The Ion is what launched them from a middle-of-the-road company to a market behemoth. Slim margins, yes, but they made up for it on selling millions of the damn things.

Smart Parts' current trouble have NOTHING to do with their sales. Their troubles stem from having had a large amount of financing from a venture capital firm that went bust and called in their loans. Had SP knocked down some of their liabilities before the market went to hell, they'd have been fine.
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#4 Guest_Schecter_*

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:04 PM

View PostMarauder_Pilot, on Dec 23 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

bunch of poor arguments


I had typed up a large volume of replies that proved each of your points wrong(such as how you said AKA was out of business, he is still in business and you can still buy a NIB viking from him) but I got the following error:

error said:

You have posted more than the allowed number of quoted blocks of text


So, just assume you're wrong and we will move on.
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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:34 PM

View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

So, just assume you're wrong and we will move on.


You sir have proven yourself to be correct. What a handy tool whenever I get into an argument, why bother telling someone why they're wrong, or try to explain my point of view. I'll just use this wonderful little line.



You do realize that you cold have just taken out some quotes, and used something like colours to differentiate your writings inside one big quote... right? Please tell me you didn't just throw away a whole post because there were too many quotes...
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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:44 PM

i love this thread the sp haters and fanboys amuse me. it seems there is no middle ground
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#7 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 09:54 PM

View Postvargg, on Dec 23 2009, 10:44 PM, said:

i love this thread the sp haters and fanboys amuse me. it seems there is no middle ground


I guess I sort of count as middle ground?

Don't hate SP, but I don't own any SP markers either.



@ Marauder Pilot

I hear you about AKA still holding its own against modern electros. I bought an '04 Viking new in pre-season 2005, and I'm still using it as my primary. There just isn't any reason to buy another high end electro.

I've bought some other markers since, sure, but none in the category of high end electros.
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#8 User is offline   Mitch Force 

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 11:49 PM

View Postd4rkmonkey, on Dec 23 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

So, just assume you're wrong and we will move on.


You sir have proven yourself to be correct. What a handy tool whenever I get into an argument, why bother telling someone why they're wrong, or try to explain my point of view. I'll just use this wonderful little line.



You do realize that you cold have just taken out some quotes, and used something like colours to differentiate your writings inside one big quote... right? Please tell me you didn't just throw away a whole post because there were too many quotes...


Not gonna lie, I tried to find a dodgy in his post.
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Posted 24 December 2009 - 12:55 AM

Quote

It seems every kid thinks that .50 cal is going to replace .68 overnight and we are going to use those hard pellets they used to call .50 cal paintballs. The reason .50 cal wasn't released isn't because they are trying to develope guns, they already have working models, a visit to youtube or pbnations .50 cal forum will give you a list of the guns. You also won't be forced to go out and buy all new gear, true you may have to buy some stuff, but a lot will be the same. All of the companies are working on both dedicated .50 cal guns and adapters to make current .68 guns shoot .50 cal.
The reason .50 cal gear hasn't been released is because the paintballs aren't ready. You will see people argue until they are blue in the face that .50 cal isn't as good as .68 cal. Well, look at how long it took .68 cal to reach this point. .68 used to be something that would stain clothes, it used to be injected and if you squeezed a paintball paint would squirt out. But you look at current paintballs and you see quite a bit of improvement over the last 10-15 years. When .50 cal paint is released we can expect to see them perform as well or better than current .68 paint. Not only that but it will be cheaper. Nothing beats getting 3k paintballs for what you were paying for 2k.
Also, like I said it won't be overnight, expect to see for the next year or two for .68 to be just as easy to get as .50, .50 may even be more rare than .68 for awhile. Since so few companies will be making the jump.
Then you have people complaining about having to buy all new equipment, first there will be all levels and prices of .50, from high end to entry level, and if players had a problem buying new guns why are there so many luxes and ego10's floating around pbnation's b/s/t?

What is .50 cal? It's fear of change, though when you look at it, by the time .50 takes over 90% of players who used .68 won't even be playing anymore. People with 08 join dates on pbnation talking in gearbag sale about how they are quitting paintball and selling all their stuff. .50 is going to happen, and personally I am excited to see some change. Good paint is getting expensive and cheap paint seems to be getting worse and worse.


No you won't see people agruing till they are blue in the face because there is nothing to say... No amount of hype or hoopla can circumvent the laws of physics and firmly, absolutely, believe that the "final Fill" that somehow makes a .50 cal paintball heavy enough to perform like a .68 paintball is a pipe dream.

But you know what is really amazing??? That GI slim can come out with all those neat charts and graphs about how their .50 paintball products performed better than .68, espically considering that the paintballs that are required to even come close to matching their claims don't exist.

I personnally am not going to sell my gear or switch over to .50 cal because its performance is inferior to what I currently use. What does bother me is what .50 will do to all new players to the sport. What is going to happen when these new players, who don't know the truth about .50 cal paintballs, start showing up at fields to discover that the field doesn't carry .50 paint or when they encounter .68 paintball for the first time and discover that their paint doesn't fly as far, isn't more accurate, and doesn't break as well. Yeah that's a great way further the sport. Everything about .50 cal paintball rests on the .50 paintball itself and yet, so we are told, that is the is the piece of puzzle that is missing? Call me crazy but wouldn't that be, I don't know, the FIRST thing you perfect before you take your ".50 cal revolution" to the market?

Finally, may-be my views are some what cynical but I have serious doubts that consumers will ever see real savings from .50 paintballs. I have a feeling 90% of the cost savings will go straight in to the manufactures profit margins. But that's just my opinion.
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#10 User is offline   Tim Burton 

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 01:29 AM

Quote

No you won't see people agruing till they are blue in the face because there is nothing to say... No amount of hype or hoopla can circumvent the laws of physics and firmly, absolutely, believe that the "final Fill" that somehow makes a .50 cal paintball heavy enough to perform like a .68 paintball is a pipe dream.

But you know what is really amazing??? That GI slim can come out with all those neat charts and graphs about how their .50 paintball products performed better than .68, espically considering that the paintballs that are required to even come close to matching their claims don't exist.


Yup, they ain't going anywhere with 50 cal, unless they can get it ok to increase the fps up and the ball doesn't fly off in every direction when it leaves the barrel.
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#11 User is offline   Legato 

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 04:59 AM

View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Also, above all, keep in mind these are my OPINIONS.



View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

So, just assume you're wrong and we will move on.

So wait. So this whole long post is only Your Opinion. Yet he is wrong by disagreeing with you? So you aren't stating fact. Just opinion. But he is still wrong for disagreeing with you? Wow. That is some internet logic there. ROFL.

Sorry i agree with MP on all points, so to me, you are wrong. ;) ANd yes though AKA is still in business, they only make marker parts now and cannot legally make markers. They always were a metal production company (hence the MP in AKALMP), paintball was a side biz for them. But SP's bull crap patent twisting forced them out of selling markers. Do i have a blind SP hate...nope...i hate with good reason. Anyone who has shot an AKA marker can attest to that. THose who haven't are just missing out.
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#12 Guest_Schecter_*

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 10:37 AM

View PostLegato, on Dec 24 2009, 04:59 AM, said:

View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 01:49 PM, said:

Also, above all, keep in mind these are my OPINIONS.



View PostSchecter, on Dec 23 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

So, just assume you're wrong and we will move on.

So wait. So this whole long post is only Your Opinion. Yet he is wrong by disagreeing with you? So you aren't stating fact. Just opinion. But he is still wrong for disagreeing with you? Wow. That is some internet logic there. ROFL.

Sorry i agree with MP on all points, so to me, you are wrong. ;) ANd yes though AKA is still in business, they only make marker parts now and cannot legally make markers. They always were a metal production company (hence the MP in AKALMP), paintball was a side biz for them. But SP's bull crap patent twisting forced them out of selling markers. Do i have a blind SP hate...nope...i hate with good reason. Anyone who has shot an AKA marker can attest to that. THose who haven't are just missing out.


Well, you are trying to argue my opinion with me. It's like trying to tell me my favorite color isn't blue, it's red.
They can still legally make markers, they settled with SP promising to not make markers. I have shot an AKA marker. I compare it to a shoebox shocker.

This post has been edited by Schecter: 24 December 2009 - 10:37 AM

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#13 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 10:51 AM

No, it's like you saying that your favorite color is blue, then him saying his is red and you telling him he's wrong.
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Posted 24 December 2009 - 10:55 AM

View PostFlippy the Wonder Bunny, on Dec 24 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

No, it's like you saying that your favorite color is blue, then him saying his is red and you telling him he's wrong.


No, he was definitely trying to call me out on what I said.
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#15 User is offline   Flippy the Wonder Bunny 

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 11:00 AM

And now you're calling him out for disagreeing with your opinions (which have now turned into facts?).
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