Special Ops Paintball: recomendations for zeroing FS rounds - Special Ops Paintball

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recomendations for zeroing FS rounds Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   gubment_man 

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 05:32 PM

I tried zeroing in the scope I have on my FS rifle today and I went through a box of 40 rounds and couldn't get a consistant grouping to zero the scope in with. I'm using a US Army carver one with a modified feed as my gun, a Tiberius Arms 4x32 mildot scope(Same scope that comes with the t9/t9.1 elite or t4). I was trying to zero it at about 100 feet to start with but I couldn't get a flat trajectory, I think my velocity could have been too low but I don't own a "Chrono" so I dont know. Based on this info, can anyone tell me what could be the problem? If you need more details please ask. Also, any recommendations on how you have your scope/red dot zeroed or any other useful information is greatly appreciated. I am always looking for ways to improve.

Thank you in advance.
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#2 User is offline   Benaiah 

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:02 AM

Most likely your velocity is to blame. Its not that its too high or too low, its that its inconsistent. As a blowback marker, there are a plethora of things that could lead to the velocity being inconsistent. To really be able to get first shot accuracy on a 5 inch target at 100 feet (or 33 yards), youre going to need to be able to keep your velocity within a +/-5 fps tolerance. This is difficult on a blowback, but not impossible. You'll need regs and stabalizers, but you can find that information elsewhere, as im not that versed on what is effective.

As for sighting in, i can help you there, but i need to know some things. How are you sighting it? are you firing from a bench with the gun locked in position? or are you firing it manually?
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#3 User is offline   gubment_man 

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 02:37 PM

When I was sighting, I used my "3 day assualt bag" as a rest. I had to aim at least 4 mils up just to get close to the archery target board that I drew a circle that had an 8 inch radius. Also, I kinda used the wrong words to discribe my problem. The grouping wasn't the real problem it was the fact that I couldn't get a flat trajectory at the range I was trying to get an intial zero at which was 100ft/33yds. Consistancy is something I would like to have pretty tight, but I will be happy if I can hit a human torso from at least 200-300 feet without trouble since I am taking the "cheap bastard" approach and modding my own FS rifle instead of buying. I also forgot to take into account that I had just got my gun back from tippmann cuz I had to have some work done on it, so they may have turned the velocity way down before they shipped it back to me. What do you think?
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#4 User is offline   Silent-7 

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:01 PM

Just to be clear, it will be impossible to get a "flat trajectory" no matter what your velocity. A higher velocity will make it "flatter," but it will always have some arc to it.

So to figure out if that's your problem or not - and to get a handle on what Benaiah was talking about - you're really going to need access to a chrono. Do you have a field nearby that would let you spend a somewhat extended amount of time at the chrono station? I'm assuming you're not interested in buying your own chrono...

If you want to be really creative, you could always use physics to figure it out. But you'll need a very accurate way of measuring a very small amount of time. Your velocity (in FPS) will be equal to the distance between your marker and the target (in feet) divided by the time between the marker firing and the paintball contacting the target (in seconds). There's no way that this will be an accurate enough method to check your marker's consistency unless you have an excellent way to measure the time period. But it should at least get you a ballpark number to make sure you're not way way below ~290FPS.
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#5 User is offline   Benaiah 

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:14 PM

A trajectory will never be flat. No matter how fast an object is moving, gravity affects it the same amount. For example, if you fired a gun perfectly horizontally along a perfect plane, then dropped a bullet at the exact same time, they would both hit the ground at the same time (neglecting the effects of air). However, because of the speed and rotation of the projectile through the air, it will initally drop below the sightline, rise slightly above, and then sink back down past the sight line. This is where you get the 30/350 (or similar, depending on round types and other variables). This means that if you bore sight the rifle at 30 yards (or wherever the projectile passes the sight line first, it is also sighted at 350 yards (or wherever the projectile passes the sight line second. This is true for gunpowder rifles firing in excess of 1600 fps. For a FS round at around 280, i cannot say for sure if this is the case. If you search the forums at techpb.com you can find a range chart they determined for the FS round. With this background information, we can move on to answering your question.

As i said above, the horizontal speed of an object has no affect on the vertical drop speed. However, the faster the object is moving, the farther you can get before you drop too far from your bore line. So yes, a low velocity will result in a lower trajectory, or a "faster" drop. Turning your velocity to the maximum field allowed speed will increase your range, and to some effect your accuracy, but with too much speed comes more instability in flight. There is a sweet spot, but like i said i dont know much about the specifics of the FS round. I am planning on getting a T9.1 rifle as soon as i can justify spending the cash.

Anyway, i hope this gives you some insight into the physics of ballistics so that you can better understand what is happening with your marker.

One last word of advice, squeeze the trigger, dont pull it. The shot should surprise you. This means you didnt react to the recoil until after the shot was fired. If you pull the trigger, you instinctively counter the recoil and throw off your shot. This usually results in shots that are low and towards your shooting hand (right if youre a righty, same for lefties). My dad once told me i was pulling and i didnt believe him. He "loaded" a round in and i pulled the trigger and shoved the gun into the table with my shoulder. There was no round fired. I had been throwing off my shots the entire time. this can be a huge problem if youre trying to sight a rifle.

if you want to learn more i would recommend googling it. the internet knows everything. Globalsecurity.com should have some army manuals on the subject. But be warned, once you enter the realm of target shooting, you will never go back.
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#6 User is offline   gubment_man 

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 08:28 PM

thank you for all the useful shooting tips, I appreciate it greatly. To specify what I meant as "flat trajectory", when I was zeroing at about 100 feet and all my shots fell well in front of the target. I adjusted my scope to get the zero right, but I still was short of the target and maxed out the elevation on the scopes dial. I even turned it the other direction to make sure i was adjusting it right.It was like it had as steep of a trajectory like normal paint. When I moved back to about 200 feet of the target just for the heck of it, I had to aim so high that the target wasn't even visible through the scope. I just reviewed some of the review videos of fs rounds and I'm pretty sure that I had the velocity too low so it greatly shortened the range.I got some normal paint here and some air left over so I might go in the backyard tomorrow and crank upp the velocity and try to give a swag until its about 290. And to answer your question "Silent". I do want a chrono but dont have the money for one at the moment. Also, I do have a field that I can go to and in fact I was going to go play at my field's big game day but I wanted to figure this out before I go and know exactly what to do when I get to the field early so I can get to the chrono first and get this all worked out. now I just need to order some more rounds. Speaking of which, I'm still in debate on how many I should get. The Big Game Day I'm going to is expecting what I would swag at least 100 players.( we arent a very huge field) Im thinking at least 100 rds but I might go as high as 200rds. also keep those tips coming, the more the better.
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#7 User is offline   Benaiah 

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 06:03 AM

Another important tip: Squeeze the trigger. I cant emphasize enough how important proper shooting form is. You can sight in all you want but if you keep adding user error, you'll never get it right.

I see what you mean. Thats definitely your velocity. Another problem you might encounter is with your sight. If the elevation window cannot change enough to keep up with FS round, you might need an adjustable rail. Lifting the back of the sight will let you get a little farther and still be in your sight window.

Some more physics: d=(1/2)g*t^2, or distance is one half the acceleration of gravity time time squared. This means that at 290 feet, which will take the round 1 second to travel (assuming youre at 290fps), the round will drop 5 meters. This is the same no matter what the speed is, because as you can see from the equation, speed has no affect. The time of travel does. So the farther you can go in one second, the farther you will have before you drop 5 meters (a little over 15 feet). This calculation is using the muzzle velocity, which will slow over time due to air resistance, so it be shorter than 290, but that would be a much more difficult calculation. For comparison, a normal, gunpowder round will travel much farther. The .223, or the 5.56mm NATO round (most M-16 based weapons, as well as others), will travel an average of 3300 fps, depending on bullet weight. as you can guess, this bullet will travel well upwards of 2/3 of a mile before dropping 15 feet. This means that many sights do not have a long enough elevation change to accommodate something like a FS round, so you may have to look into a different sight. You said the one you have is from the Tiberius FS rifles, so you should be fine. But if you are at a fast enough velocity, and still come up short at a reasonable range, you'll need to look into that adjustable sight riser.
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#8 User is offline   gubment_man 

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 07:46 PM

Yeah when I was anticipating when the gun would fire, I notice that the shot will jump to the right ( I'm right handed) when it finally fired. I'll try to keep that in mind. Thank you.
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#9 User is offline   Tommikka 

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:23 PM

Just to be a little pedantic on velocity without a chrono:

Firing a distance of 290 feet in one second is an AVERAGE velocity of 290fps.

If you drive a car 50 miles in a 50 mph limit in exactly one hour - pulling off at the start point, and breaking to a stop exactly at the 50 mile point, then you must have been speeding at some point, as part of the time you will be accelerating or decelerating.

The requirement for a marker to be field legal is at the muzzle velocity.

If you fire at an average velocity of 290fps you will actualy have a greater muzzle velocity.

When a paintball or FS is fired it:
accelerates in the barrel (idealy with the optimum length barrel)
hits the atmosphere (idealy with minimum disruption due to porting etc)
flies through the air, possibly still accelerating a little then decelerating
hopefuly hitting target before decelerating too much to have a good impact
or traveling the maximum range and dropping off

This is the same as timing a car with running start at 50mph then disengaging the gears and coasting. It will not go for 50 miles and it will not take one hour. to do so you would need to be driving with enough speed and power to be able to coast the distance and quickly enough to average 50mph.

However in reality you won't be able to accurately identify the difference with a paintball.

This post has been edited by Tommikka: 05 November 2010 - 02:31 PM

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#10 User is offline   Benaiah 

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 03:29 PM

View PostBenaiah, on 02 November 2010 - 09:03 AM, said:

This calculation is using the muzzle velocity, which will slow over time due to air resistance, so it will be shorter than 290,

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#11 User is offline   Silent-7 

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Posted 15 November 2010 - 05:03 PM

Or, for what I was talking about, realize that the error in time measurement (because the period is so small) will almost certainly lead to a much greater error in calculated velocity than the average velocity approximation will contribute. But yes, you are absolutely correct. I could always dust off my fluid mechanics text (I just spotted it on my bookshelf in fact) and go into all the fascinating details of air drag, but that would seem futile when the time period is so uncertain.

In short, find a chrono. :P
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#12 User is offline   gubment_man 

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:23 PM

I never thought my topic would turn into a physics discussion.lol. I just used my rifle this weekend and the velocity was part of the problem. Im' still having to aim higher than I should to hit at least 200 feet. I think the sight risers is the culprit and is preventing me to adjusting the scope correctly. When I maxed the scope out when I played this weekend, I was just under the target at I would quess about 200 and my gun was chrono'd at around 290. I took the risers off and going to try again.
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#13 User is offline   Phobeus 

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Posted 02 December 2010 - 01:06 AM

Put shims in the back scope mount. it should raise the back and move the scope picture down farther, so your shots may hit at your desired zero. I think that should help, since you said your consistency is good. however I would take your gun to a field and chrono it just to make sure thats not the problem.
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#14 User is offline   gubment_man 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:29 PM

Yeah the consistency is decent considering what I am using, I plan on upgrading the internals because its all stock parts now and see what that does. As far as shims, You might have to show me what you are talking about so I know what you mean. I just took the riser mount I had on it before and I plan on going to my field and see what difference it made now that its mounted directly to the reciever. I believe the problem was the the scope was to high, so lets say i had to arc up at a 15 degree angle to hit someone at 300 ft, but because I had i profile scope rings plus a 1" trimount rail, The scope itself was at a 25 degree angle. Of course the math maybe off but you see my point. Now that its directly on the reciever the difference in degrees is closer, which makes it more likely to have a zero without having to max out the scope. Im just waiting for the weather to get better, its in the 40's and windy out here.
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#15 User is offline   Phobeus 

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:52 PM

Shims are what you put under the scope when it sits in the scope mounting rings, they are usually small curved plastic peices. I recieved some with my tiberius. I can't post any picks right now but I know places like academy or dicks may have some and they should know what you are talking about if you go to the hunting department.
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