Special Ops Paintball: Hopper Restrictions - Special Ops Paintball

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Hopper Restrictions Rate Topic: ***-- 1 Votes

Poll: Hopper Restrictions (112 member(s) have cast votes)

Hoppers for 2008

  1. Leave the present hopper rules in place (53 votes [47.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.32%

  2. Lift the restrictions - any hopper is allowed (59 votes [52.68%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.68%

Vote

#121 User is offline   ronin58 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:14 AM

View PostPaleRider, on Jan 15 2008, 05:37 AM, said:

View PostTimbertiger, on Jan 14 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

So are the 18 Volt fastas legal if you only use one battery..........all other parts are identical? It would allow players to utilize the LCD screen and keep game time.


(heavy sigh) How can we make this more clear?

Any electro pneumatic marker that is used in conjunction with ANY force feed loader or loader with an advertised feed rate above 15 balls per second.
Important note: Purely mechanical markers may use any loader they choose.




OK so here is my deal , I went to Kingmans sight and th 9v fast is advertised as 15+ bps second ,15+ would be faster than 15 BPS ,why isnt it lifted , or is just on the border of things.

http://www.spyder.tv...asta/index.html

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#122 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:04 AM

View PostPaleRider, on Jan 15 2008, 05:37 AM, said:

View PostTimbertiger, on Jan 14 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

So are the 18 Volt fastas legal if you only use one battery..........all other parts are identical? It would allow players to utilize the LCD screen and keep game time.


(heavy sigh) How can we make this more clear?

Any electro pneumatic marker that is used in conjunction with ANY force feed loader or loader with an advertised feed rate above 15 balls per second.
Important note: Purely mechanical markers may use any loader they choose.


No, TT makes a very good point. The only difference between a 9V and a 18V Fasta is that extra battery. The boards are the same, and there are plenty of people out there that have simply taken to sodering another battery connector to the board on the 9V model and now they have a 18V model for about $20 less than buying a 18V model. So his question is quite legit, if you have a 18V LCD model (They don't make a 9V LCD model) and you only put one battery in it, would it be legal?


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#123 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:20 AM

Thank you, PaleRider, for your final ruling. And I fully support your decision and believe it was the right one. You absolutely made the right choice. People who want the restrictions lifted are either too poor to participate anyway, or they want to cheat. There are plenty of good 15 BPS hoppers out there, and have been for several years. There is NO valid reason why someone spending hundreds of dollars on their equipment and hundreds of dollars on entry and travel cannot pay another $50 for a legal hopper.

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#124 User is offline   Schloob 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:39 AM

We will be checking and marking every hopper and maker this year. To make sure players are following the rules.

I appreciate all your comments and support. Most of the comments made, regardless of your opinion on the issue, are valid. However, we have to pick a direction to go for the 08 season and we feel we have made the right dicision for now. With that being said, I hope all of you will continue to support the league while it continues to grow and remember no matter what we do; we can't please everyone. Lifting the rule will make half of you happy and upset the rest ,while leaving it will do the same. I hope we can move forward, focusing on the the great things we all like about the league while helping it grow.

I still want to hear your thoughts and opinions on making things better but this issue has been decided and the time to dicuss is has pasted for another year. So please spend your time and energy getting ready for this year, and direct your questions towards the rules that are in place now. We have spent a great deal of time trying to make them simpler, more fair and easier to ref.

I feel there are so many great great things about the league and I am excited about the changes. I feel most, if not all, will make the game more even, while letting players play more instead of sitting in a dead box and give every team an equally opportunity to excel in the respective divisions.
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#125 User is offline   ~LURCH~ 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 01:37 PM

Good Call Jayson,
I have never played in a official sppl tourney but we play 3 flag all the time. I think it all comes down to what the owners and creators of the sppl want for the sppl. No matter what rules are in play there is always people for and against it. I think instead of arguing over the rules we should just give our advice to the sppl guys and let them make the call since they are the ones running the show and I am thankful that the sppl exists. I feel that they should keep the sport about honesty and integrity and if you have a well based opinion or suggestion for something the sppl will listen but in the end they have the final say and we should respect what direction they want to take the sppl. They done good so far!




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#126 User is offline   Timbertiger 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:07 PM

View PostLament, on Jan 15 2008, 11:04 AM, said:

View PostPaleRider, on Jan 15 2008, 05:37 AM, said:

View PostTimbertiger, on Jan 14 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

So are the 18 Volt fastas legal if you only use one battery..........all other parts are identical? It would allow players to utilize the LCD screen and keep game time.


(heavy sigh) How can we make this more clear?

Any electro pneumatic marker that is used in conjunction with ANY force feed loader or loader with an advertised feed rate above 15 balls per second.
Important note: Purely mechanical markers may use any loader they choose.


No, TT makes a very good point. The only difference between a 9V and a 18V Fasta is that extra battery. The boards are the same, and there are plenty of people out there that have simply taken to sodering another battery connector to the board on the 9V model and now they have a 18V model for about $20 less than buying a 18V model. So his question is quite legit, if you have a 18V LCD model (They don't make a 9V LCD model) and you only put one battery in it, would it be legal?


Thanks Lament.........that is what I was getting at.........I could mod a 9 Volt and put in an LCD screen simple enough........but it seems to me it would be easier to buy an LCD 18 Volt and not hook the 2nd 9 volt up simple enough. The internal hardware is identical along with the software. The only change is the extra voltage.........although I'm pretty sure it's just amperage and not voltage as that is a large swing in voltage for a board to handle!

And to Warden..............I say let's all use gravity hoppers...........that would be fair as can be! The cost of the hopper never had anything to do with it!

This post has been edited by Timbertiger: 15 January 2008 - 08:11 PM

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#127 User is offline   Chaos 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 08:47 PM

I feel compelled to add my $0.02. I know alot of people say those who want the restrictions lifted just want to cheat. I feel that is a rather close minded and one sided view. Yes there may be some individuals that want it lifted for that reason. But I feel those individuals are part of the 1%, not the 99%. Simple fact, you can only attain roughly 13bps with a agitated hopper. There are players out there that think they need that extra 2bps to allow them to play better ball. Some people say they want to cheat because they do not wanna buy a $50 hopper. As one of those players that pays for all his own gear, plus, a car payment, insurance, rent, saving to pay for your wedding, and so on, $50 is almost a full case of paint or one person's share of a teams registration. There are plenty of other legitimate reasons why someone would want a rule lifted. You can ask Schloob, he's know's I am an honorable player, and I have even been deemed a RIP at Hell Survivors any time I play there by the head ref. I just think its pretty bad when someone's first reaction to hearing someone want a change in the rules is to say its because they want to cheat. If the rule is lifted, that means I can sell my SPPL legal hopper and use my Halo, and I can take that money and go play paintball for one more day this year. (and justify the cost in the check book)

:::Rant off:::

This post has been edited by Chaos: 15 January 2008 - 08:50 PM

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#128 User is offline   Lament 

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:21 PM

View PostChaos, on Jan 15 2008, 07:47 PM, said:

I feel compelled to add my $0.02. I know alot of people say those who want the restrictions lifted just want to cheat. I feel that is a rather close minded and one sided view. Yes there may be some individuals that want it lifted for that reason. But I feel those individuals are part of the 1%, not the 99%. Simple fact, you can only attain roughly 13bps with a agitated hopper. There are players out there that think they need that extra 2bps to allow them to play better ball. Some people say they want to cheat because they do not wanna buy a $50 hopper. As one of those players that pays for all his own gear, plus, a car payment, insurance, rent, saving to pay for your wedding, and so on, $50 is almost a full case of paint or one person's share of a teams registration. There are plenty of other legitimate reasons why someone would want a rule lifted. You can ask Schloob, he's know's I am an honorable player, and I have even been deemed a RIP at Hell Survivors any time I play there by the head ref. I just think its pretty bad when someone's first reaction to hearing someone want a change in the rules is to say its because they want to cheat. If the rule is lifted, that means I can sell my SPPL legal hopper and use my Halo, and I can take that money and go play paintball for one more day this year. (and justify the cost in the check book)

:::Rant off:::

Just a thought here, how about you sell your HALO and always play with an SPPL legal hopper? I am selling off all of my Reloader B's, I had three, now down to two, and I only play with a Fasta now. Hey, it holds more paint then the HALO's, and I am pretty much a 10 BPS shooter, so I am more than happy to just use that all of the time.

Oh, and for those that might agree that the 9V Fasta says that the since the Kingman site advertises a 15+ BPS feed rate, it should be illegal to use on an EP marker. Understand, they are trying to sell those, so they are going to advertise them as being that fast. I have never seen anything posted by real world users saying that they can get an actual 15+ BPS feed rate out of it.


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#129 User is offline   flyweightnate 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 12:43 AM

Here's a thought:

I shoot a mechanical autococker, slider frame. I've outshot my hopper, a 12v Ricochet Apache, advertised at 18bps. I'm fast, but not 15+ on a single trigger fast. I think forcefeed is a major advantage, not necessarily in feed rate, but feed reliability. I go tearing through the woods, slide in behind a spool, snap out to shoot, and I've only got a ball in the chamber, none in the pipe. I bobbled them on the way in, and my hopper hasn't caught up yet. NOT cool. I think the hopper restriction is poorly chosen, as forcefeed has more benefits than just speed, and that cheaters will find a way. I'd just modify my Apache with Vlocity internals or something if I cared enough to cheat. Or swap board on an Egg.

My vote? Mech only league. Or limited paint league. If you want to prevent overshooting, make ramping impossible, or short lived (run outta paint in 8 seconds, you're up a creek!). And those of us working on making Pneumags, if you can walk a mag past 15, it should be allowed. Obviously, it's skill and practice, not electronic assistance.
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#130 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 01:12 AM

View Postflyweightnate, on Jan 16 2008, 12:43 AM, said:

Here's a thought:

I shoot a mechanical autococker, slider frame. I've outshot my hopper, a 12v Ricochet Apache, advertised at 18bps. I'm fast, but not 15+ on a single trigger fast. I think forcefeed is a major advantage, not necessarily in feed rate, but feed reliability. I go tearing through the woods, slide in behind a spool, snap out to shoot, and I've only got a ball in the chamber, none in the pipe. I bobbled them on the way in, and my hopper hasn't caught up yet. NOT cool. I think the hopper restriction is poorly chosen, as forcefeed has more benefits than just speed, and that cheaters will find a way. I'd just modify my Apache with Vlocity internals or something if I cared enough to cheat. Or swap board on an Egg.

My vote? Mech only league. Or limited paint league. If you want to prevent overshooting, make ramping impossible, or short lived (run outta paint in 8 seconds, you're up a creek!). And those of us working on making Pneumags, if you can walk a mag past 15, it should be allowed. Obviously, it's skill and practice, not electronic assistance.


If you "outshot your hopper" with a mechanical Cocker and a slider trigger, you're almost assuredly short stroking or the gun is out of tune. The bolt is not remaining open long enough for proper feeding. That is either a shooter problem or a gun problem. And if you go force fed, you need a high-end one like a Halo that has a mode specifically for closed bolt guns. Otherwise you'll wind up with soup in the feed neck due to the timing differences of these guns when they shoot.

I doubt you're using an Apache, though. The Apache is 18 volt, 20 BPS, and I cannot outrun it with my E-Mag. You may be using an AK or Rhino, which is 9 volts, 12 BPS. It sounds like you may need to raise your LPR pressure to ensure the bolt goes fully back and stays open long enough for the ball to feed.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 16 January 2008 - 09:40 AM


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#131 User is offline   Timbertiger 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 10:06 AM

View Postflyweightnate, on Jan 16 2008, 01:43 AM, said:

Here's a thought:

I shoot a mechanical autococker, slider frame. I've outshot my hopper, a 12v Ricochet Apache, advertised at 18bps. I'm fast, but not 15+ on a single trigger fast. I think forcefeed is a major advantage, not necessarily in feed rate, but feed reliability. I go tearing through the woods, slide in behind a spool, snap out to shoot, and I've only got a ball in the chamber, none in the pipe. I bobbled them on the way in, and my hopper hasn't caught up yet. NOT cool. I think the hopper restriction is poorly chosen, as forcefeed has more benefits than just speed, and that cheaters will find a way. I'd just modify my Apache with Vlocity internals or something if I cared enough to cheat. Or swap board on an Egg.

My vote? Mech only league. Or limited paint league. If you want to prevent overshooting, make ramping impossible, or short lived (run outta paint in 8 seconds, you're up a creek!). And those of us working on making Pneumags, if you can walk a mag past 15, it should be allowed. Obviously, it's skill and practice, not electronic assistance.


Nate is right on the money!
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#132 User is offline   Chaos 

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 02:20 PM

View PostLament, on Jan 15 2008, 09:21 PM, said:

Just a thought here, how about you sell your HALO and always play with an SPPL legal hopper? I am selling off all of my Reloader B's, I had three, now down to two, and I only play with a Fasta now. Hey, it holds more paint then the HALO's, and I am pretty much a 10 BPS shooter, so I am more than happy to just use that all of the time.


Flat out, I would rather use a Halo over an SPPL legal hopper. Now, I know nothing of the Fasta, and I am pretty sure its force fed, but deffinatly has a higher feed rate than 15, there for making it not legal for me ot use in the SPPL.

And simply put, with two pieces of equipment. Why would I want to sell the better of the two? SPPL is not the only paintball I play, and I think the argument most people have is, they would like to play the SPPL, but do not find it worth while enough to buy a $50 peice of equipment just to play one or two events a year, exspecially if that piece of equipment has less performance than their normal gear.

Its like owning your dream car (even though you obey the speed limit), but the goverment making you buy a Geo just so you can drive on "Tree-Hugger Hippy Day"

Besides, if someone REALLY wanted to cheat, I could think of a half dozen ways to get around the SPPL hopper restrictions.

I agree with the limited paint idea. I think that would deffinatly make it fun. I think this would be a perfect rule if the SPPL is still trying to make it so "everyone" can compete, and no one can buy their way to an advantage (being able to afford more paint)

This post has been edited by Chaos: 16 January 2008 - 02:26 PM

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#133 Guest_PaleRider_*

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 03:14 PM

again thank you all for your input
Bottom line hopper rules stay in effect.

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