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#1 User is offline   ProX 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 12:28 AM

As I have lurked here and there, I see many people recommending the BT markers over a Tippy when cost is of concern.

I was looking at the BT's and besides looking strikingly similar, and being made by someone from the Tippy clan, (Ben) are they basically the same gun less the Tippy feed system - the Cyclone or whatever it's called? If so, then a fellow could add an agitating hopper and any other basic Tippy mod?
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#2 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 02:32 AM

Welcome to the forums. Please use the Search function.

BT stands for Ben Tippmann. The company was founded by a relative of Dennis Tippmann, who used to own Tippmann. Basically, the BT-4 and 16 were clones of the A-5 and 98, respectively. The BT-16 was discontinued due to poor quality. The BT-4 is reportedly so similar to the A-5 that you can place real A-5 internals in it and vice versa and it will work just fine. The BT guns can use any standard agitating hopper or BT's Rip Clip system, which takes Cyclone hoppers and works like a Halo. They also have their own E-Grip for it. However, don't expect any real future for these guns. Tippmann, predictably, sued BT. While Tippmann did not put them out of business, BT is now heavily limited in what they can do and they cannot capitalize on any new changes Tippmann makes. This effectively means that the BT guns are going to be left in the past and lag heavily behind Tippmann's advances. Aside from the Rip Clip, a BT gun is like getting a Tippmann from 4 or 5 years ago; you're missing out on a lot of the improvements made in recent years.

Just what are you missing out on?

1. Tippmann's Antichop technology, that they put in the 98 Custom

2. The improved E-Grip with WAS board

3. Compatibility with a lot of external and internal upgrades / accessories that have been developed for Tippmanns over the years

4. A reasonable guarantee that the company will be around to support it in 2 or 3 years.

Honestly, I predict BT will fold. The industry is hitting some hard times right now, and there just aren't that many BT products in circulation. I actually have never seen one at a field. Even the garbage JT Tac-5 is much more common. BT just doesn't have anything to offer that Tippmann doesn't do better.

This post has been edited by WardenWolf: 25 February 2008 - 02:41 AM


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#3 User is offline   Avery Salvation 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 06:12 AM

I am an owner of a BT-4 Ironhorse and love it. I chose it over the Tippy because everyone has a tippmann. I wanted something that looked, and felt different. The Tippmann guns, or at least when I purchased my BT, did not come complete as a milsim gun (mine is a replica of a M4 with a M203 launcher on the bottom). Tippmann has now come out with a hyped up Military issue 98C (I think) that has the Army star on it and some other stuff. It still isn't very Milsim.

As for functionality, they both work the same way and as stated above, their parts (or most of them) are interchangeable. I have never heard of Tippmann limiting the scope of what BT can do. I am not saying this didn't happen, it just isn't on the BT forums. If this is the case, it may limit BT from cloneing Tippy's, but doesn't stop them from advancing in a different way. And it sure hasn't stoped all the aftermarket Mod shops from producing products. That being said, one of the things that BT has done, and has been popular, is the APEX barrel. Now people can argue about it all day long, but it must be popular because barrel manufacturers are producing new barrels where the APEX tip will attach to with no modifications and have different threads (i.e. spyder, ion, etc.).

The local field I play with uses BT's as the rental gun, so I see them all the time.

If you want more information about BT's go to bt.warrior-online.com It is a forum for all BT products.
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#4 User is offline   Tek 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 07:15 AM

I see it as the other way around. I have seen BT come out with plenty of upgrades for their markers. Ape just released a board for the BT, Halo has joined in with the Rip clip. There are plenty of mods out there for BT's, some are tippy compatible and some are for just the BT. From what I hear, Ben took his patents with him when he left Tippmann when it was sold. So I dont see BT goin any where anytime soon, I do see them expanding and growin with new markers coming out like the new Delta & ERC markers.
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#5 User is offline   ProX 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 10:25 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on Feb 25 2008, 03:32 AM, said:

Welcome to the forums. Please use the Search function.

BT stands for Ben Tippmann. The company was founded by a relative of Dennis Tippmann, who used to own Tippmann. Basically, the BT-4 and 16 were clones of the A-5 and 98, respectively. The BT-16 was discontinued due to poor quality. The BT-4 is reportedly so similar to the A-5 that you can place real A-5 internals in it and vice versa and it will work just fine. The BT guns can use any standard agitating hopper or BT's Rip Clip system, which takes Cyclone hoppers and works like a Halo. They also have their own E-Grip for it. However, don't expect any real future for these guns. Tippmann, predictably, sued BT. While Tippmann did not put them out of business, BT is now heavily limited in what they can do and they cannot capitalize on any new changes Tippmann makes. This effectively means that the BT guns are going to be left in the past and lag heavily behind Tippmann's advances. Aside from the Rip Clip, a BT gun is like getting a Tippmann from 4 or 5 years ago; you're missing out on a lot of the improvements made in recent years.

Just what are you missing out on?

1. Tippmann's Antichop technology, that they put in the 98 Custom

2. The improved E-Grip with WAS board

3. Compatibility with a lot of external and internal upgrades / accessories that have been developed for Tippmanns over the years

4. A reasonable guarantee that the company will be around to support it in 2 or 3 years.

Honestly, I predict BT will fold. The industry is hitting some hard times right now, and there just aren't that many BT products in circulation. I actually have never seen one at a field. Even the garbage JT Tac-5 is much more common. BT just doesn't have anything to offer that Tippmann doesn't do better.

Sorry about putting this in the wrong forum Warden.. I did consider the search function, but sometimes my imagination fails me and the IPB search doesn't drum up what I want...

Thanks to all for the tid bits about BT and Tippy. IF I did decide to pick up yet another marker, it would probably be the Tippy over the BT as I tend to prefer the original version over a copy. Unless I could find a Mag of some sorts cheaper. The after market seems to be biased towards the Tippy's too...
I may be schizophrenic, but at least I have each other.

"Never play AGAINST your wife on her first day paintballing. Wife gets beat = no more nookie"
Mark that quote down... very important.

When I did tech support for Dell a call came in about a laptop that wasn't working right. The guy insisted that the bullet holes in had nothing to do with the boot issues... -Puzuma
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#6 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 09:37 PM

Evidence seems to indicate that part of the lawsuit settlement prevents BT from making any new products that will work with real Tippmanns, except barrels because they share the same thread. This is indicated by the fact that they have not released their Rip Clip or any of their other post-lawsuit mods for real Tippmanns, contrary to previous practice. What this means is that BT won't be able to cash in on the lucrative Tippmann mod industry. It effectively means they have to make their own way for everything. Reinvent the wheel. While the blowback market could support another contender 5 or 6 years ago, and it still had some room to grow, it is effectively at the end of its line now. The X-7 is the last great blowback marker. There's really nothing left anymore.

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#7 User is offline   DVLCHLD 

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Posted 25 February 2008 - 11:56 PM

Wow. lol. The BT-16 line was discontinued because the centerfeed wasn't very popular so BT discontinued the BT-16 line so they could focus on the BT-4 line. It had nothing to do with quality. The BT-4 is similar to the 98C not the A5. The internals are the same. BT isn't limited as to what they can do. BT isn't waiting to "capitalize on any new changes Tippmann makes". BT's use the same internals as the 98C and they accept 98C stocks and they have A5 barrel threads. Nothing in the lawsuit said they have to change any of this. So all the Tippmann stocks, barrels, and internals can still be used on BTs. Even the body kits will fit with very slight modding. BTs also accept the Response Trigger. With a little modding they easily accept the cyclone too. BTs aren't going to be left in the past and lag behind Tippmann's advances. LOL. What advances? The ACT system is just so you can use a gravity feed loader and not break paint. If you use a decent loader on a BT you won't have to worry about breaking paint. Just like the 98C that didn't need the ACT system in the first place. BTs E-grip is sick and as fast as you'll ever need. Lets not forget the APEX barrel which outshines the Flatline in every way and barrel companies are starting to produce APEX ready barrels. Even SpecOps has a new APEX adapter for thier C-series. Tippmann even redesigned the 98C to be easier to work on because so many people are choosing the BT-4 over the 98C. Oh and the RIP-CLIP has been released and are selling like crazy. Several guys at my field have them and they work great and they will not fit on a Tippmann. BT is going to be around for a LONG time.

This post has been edited by DVLCHLD: 26 February 2008 - 05:46 AM

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#8 User is offline   RAYC22B 

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 06:48 AM

Yeah I agree with DVLCHLD and Tek BT is not going anywhere. I think Ben has alot of great ideas in the works and the company has come a long way.Why would they give up now? I think Tippmann's are getting old (style). They finally redesign the 98 and its nothing to write home about. Really not impressed after all these years with the same design.

BT's are really nice markers!
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#9 User is offline   SOGSnakebite 

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 07:36 AM

Love all my BT's very reliable and rugged markers that are easy to Milsim and field strip...plenty of new innovations in the pipeline BT isnt going anywhere
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#10 User is offline   Avery Salvation 

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 07:47 AM

View PostWardenWolf, on Feb 25 2008, 10:37 PM, said:

While the blowback market could support another contender 5 or 6 years ago, and it still had some room to grow, it is effectively at the end of its line now. The X-7 is the last great blowback marker. There's really nothing left anymore.


I like how people say there isn't any need for something untill a new product comes out that improves on an old design, then it is great! Is there room for another gas combustion engine car? They are all the same aren't they? Then why do automobile manufacturers keep making new models? Is there room for another slide top cell phone? They all slide the same. Then why do LG and Moterola keep coming up with new ones?

New products are never thought of being needed until they are made. Then, "what would it be like without them?"

I think BT is going to diverge from the normal blowback market and produce a product that is its own. We have already seen this with the APEX, Rip Clip, ability to buy markers in Digi Camo, and general look of the BT. If anything Tippmann copied the BT idea with their new "Milsim" marker (the one they partnered with the Army). The only thing it has different is it comes with a mag style expansion chamber and a rail on the top.

I live in Texas and for the longest time there was only one Electric Provider. Then deregulation hit and there are hundreds. They all provide the same elctricity, over the same lines, held up by the same poles. Does this mean that there wasn't a need for them? No, it just means that now Relient has to fight for market share. I am glad that a new Blowback manufacturer is in the market. The only thing that can come of it is better designs, lower price, and inivative ideas. What is wrong with that?
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#11 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 08:04 AM

Wow, fanboy attack. There's a reason why inline blowbacks have been almost exclusively Tippmann for all these years: they're long, and their styling doesn't resemble many of the popular tourny guns. Even though it's a superior action to Spyders, many people don't buy them because they look different and don't come in technicolor. So where's the market? Good milsim-capable guns, and good quality starter markers. The problem is, the BT-4 is no A-5. It has no barrel adapter, and it's missing a lot of the mounting points. A lot of Tippmann mods won't work on it. So who's going to produce mods for it? 3rd party producers are going to go where the money is, with Tippmann, rather than putting their money in a limited market. This will, over time, result in BT being orphaned unless they come up with a killer gun that's truly better than what Tippmann has to offer. It's a war of attrition they cannot win.

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#12 User is offline   Avery Salvation 

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 08:52 AM

BT does not try to cater to the speedball market. They don't resemble, fire as fast, or cost as much as speedball tourney markers. This isn't their market. BT (and tippmann) cater to the woodsball/milsim market. Some of the forums around the web are saying that paintball is in a little bit of a recession (not the economic type, but that the sport isn't growing). I think that speedball has plateaued for a little bit do to the high cost to be competitive. Woodsball however is growing rapidly. Special Ops, Opsgear, BT, Tippmann, Ariakon, etc have all focused on this market. There has been a huge influx of ideas and products in the last five years that have started to tailor to another type of player.

Tippmann is its own company and if it's mods don't fit the BT that is okay. When you buy a Ford F150 you do go trying to install Chevy Silverado parts, but if one fits great! Lets say you own an A-5, and you want to mount a Red Dot scope (most Milsim players will own one for practicality or looks) first you have to buy a Pictanny (or any other) mounting rail, then the scope. Now lets say you own a BT (any BT for that matter). You can mount a scope directly on to the gun.

Tippmanns have been around for a very long time, they are genuinely good guns (I have used them), BT's are a newer marker that hasn't had the longevity the market needs to feel comfortable producing a full on slot of mods. The market is starting to feel more comfortable though. This will take time, I grant you that, but I do not believe BT will succumb to Tippmann.

In addition, BT is on a better platform I believe because basic military mods will fit their markers. Take the new BT Delta (well not so new anymore); the front handgaurd can be changed out with MP5 front handgaurds directly. Therefore MODS already exist for BT, in the limited military fashion.

This post has been edited by Avery Salvation: 26 February 2008 - 04:58 PM

You made three mistakes. First, you took the job. Second, you came light. A four man crew for me? Insulting. But the worst mistake of all... empty hoppers.

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#13 User is offline   DVLCHLD 

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 04:44 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on Feb 26 2008, 09:04 AM, said:

The problem is, the BT-4 is no A-5. It has no barrel adapter, and it's missing a lot of the mounting points. A lot of Tippmann mods won't work on it. So who's going to produce mods for it? 3rd party producers are going to go where the money is, with Tippmann, rather than putting their money in a limited market. This will, over time, result in BT being orphaned.

We're not "fanboys" if we were we would be saying that BTs are better than Tippmanns, which we are not. We all know BTs are just another low end blow back like Tippmanns. We're just trying to counter false info. BTs use the same BARREL ADAPTER the A5 does. What mounting points are you talking about? It has picatinny rails on top and bottom of the marker body so alot of real firearm accesories fit right on it. You ask, "who's going to produce mods for it?". As stated above BTs accept all 98C stocks, internals and body kits and all A5 threaded barrels. They also accept the response trigger. BT also makes alot of thier own mods. You can go to thier web-site and build your own BT.

This post has been edited by DVLCHLD: 26 February 2008 - 07:51 PM

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#14 User is offline   SOGSnakebite 

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 06:45 AM

Lots of BT mods are in the pipe line from Lapco to Ape to Tacamo...............add to that military gear that already is interchangable on the BT and u have hundreds of mods available.....................
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#15 User is offline   pc_gamer321 

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 03:01 PM

Wow, the lack of BT knowledge is scary.
The BT can support many more mods with the 98c mil slim parts compatible with it, the ones BT made, and the piccatany rails helps also. Also the BT now has the Rip Clip which imo is better than the cyclone, and it also has the APEX barrel which also imo destroys the flatline. APE came out with the rampage board for the BT which is top notch.

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I recommend you go there for all your BT questions and needs.

This post has been edited by pc_gamer321: 27 February 2008 - 03:02 PM

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