Special Ops Paintball: All about Automags - Special Ops Paintball

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All about Automags Internals, upgrades and parts Rate Topic: ***** 8 Votes

#46 User is offline   CrazyDoc 

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Posted 07 July 2006 - 03:21 PM

View PostNinjaoftheNight79, on Mar 11 2006, 03:13 PM, said:

Ok, so I added a few more updates on info, and have been really working to make this better, but I need a big favor from all of you. I have gotten a lot of views on this thread for it being in a smaller section of the forum, but I havn't gotten many replies or comments. Will you please take the time to read this post, even though it is very long, and give me a reply. If you have already read it all, then atlest give me a comment. I wan't this here to help people, and I won't know if it is helpful enough if people do not help me in making it helpful.



BRO that was alsome GREAT JOB!


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#47 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 11 July 2006 - 12:16 PM

View Posts1t1e1a1l1t1h1y1one, on May 24 2006, 09:39 AM, said:

probably one of THE most informative posts on the whole dizam forum...awesome.

Well, thank you. I would like to think that, but there are some very good posts out there.

View PostExplore, on May 26 2006, 11:06 AM, said:

This is an excellent post! Truly informitive and well done!

Thank you for the time spent on compiling all of this!

You are very welcome. Like I may have said before, I always wished someone would have done this for me when I first started, so I figured that since it would have been much easier that way, I would help others out by doing it for them.


View Postaslanprime, on Jun 21 2006, 06:03 PM, said:

Good post. Very informative, love how you got the complete collection of diagrams and animations. The only recommendation I have is possibly put up some pictures of what the various markers look like (minimag vs. classic; E-Mag; Tac-One, etc...) and also add a section on the warpfeed.

Ya, I probably should get some pictures up with the differant markers. I could do that pretty quick. A warpfeed section I would have to look into a little more. Thats nothing a warp feed manual cant fix ;) .


View PostCrazyDoc, on Jul 7 2006, 05:21 PM, said:

View PostNinjaoftheNight79, on Mar 11 2006, 03:13 PM, said:

Ok, so I added a few more updates on info, and have been really working to make this better, but I need a big favor from all of you. I have gotten a lot of views on this thread for it being in a smaller section of the forum, but I havn't gotten many replies or comments. Will you please take the time to read this post, even though it is very long, and give me a reply. If you have already read it all, then atlest give me a comment. I wan't this here to help people, and I won't know if it is helpful enough if people do not help me in making it helpful.



BRO that was alsome GREAT JOB!


JT

Thanks man, I truely appreciate it.

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#48 User is offline   Pwnt 

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 04:09 AM

Whoa I'm back! I haven't checked the forums at ALL for a couple months now.. Any news with AMs? New developments? New products?
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#49 User is offline   cyrus-the-virus 

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 12:02 AM

takin from AGD. This is why CO2 cannot be put through a X-valve. I finaly got the anser i was looking for.

credit to pneumagger on AO.

Quote

there's nothing to stop you from running co2 in an xvalve...it will just freeze up about 10 times faster than a classic and kill the orings. The reason it freezes up so quickly is the super fast recharge. Looking a step deeper here is what an xvalve does. This is a long winded and technical answer...I apologize in advance.

Take the classic valve for example. It has a very fast regulator on it, easily one of fastest. However the regulator is not the choke point in a classic mag. The two resricting factors are the on/off flow and the sear operation of the mag. The on/off in a mag has a lot of minor headlosses and flow restrictions and thus limits the speed at which about 400psi air enters the dump chamber. Also, the mag only recharges it's dump chamber when bolt (and thus sear) is in the locked position allowing the on off to open. This means that a Mag only gets a fraction of the time during the full cycle to recharge it's dump...when the bolt finally returns...unlike other poppet and spool markers where the dump is continually recharging. These two factors coupled together only give the classic valve about a 12bps rate of fire before shootdown. Replacing the on off with a better flowing on off will only get you to about 14bps before shootdown...once again limited by the short recharge time alotted during the cycle.

So Tom Kaye ( ) being the genious he is saw these two things and made 2 very small adjustments to the mag operation while keeping the sear operation giving the retro valve reverse compatibility with older mags ( )

1) He made a better flowing on/off and added stepped pin so the mag had reactivity. Running unregged air to the dump allows the stepped pin to have a light pull and a heavy return due to the pressure acting on different areas throughout the trigger pull length.

2) He allowed the regulator to "slam fill" the dump chamber with unregulated air to an aproximate psi limit, then the reg kicks in and tops off the dump chamber to the set psi limit. Using unregged air to fill the dump chamber allows the air to push by flow restrictions faster, meaning the short recharge time of when the bolt is only back is not much of an issue. This operation of the Xvalve/RTvalve/Retrovalve/Emagvalve/etc is the reason mags LOVE higher pressure...the higher the pressure, the faster it recharges. However, this is simultaneously the reason it cannot handle CO2 with a practical volume of shots. Slam filling a dump chamber with unregged co2 (even if it is pure gas) causes a super fast local decompression within the valve orrifaces. This decompression happens at faster and from higher pressures (750-800psi) than in a normal mag (350-400psi) causing liquid co2 to form plus freezing of orings. (this is because of Co2's relatively high melting temerature and phase daiagrams - you would need an absolutly unobtainably rediculuous amount of pressure to get air/N2 to condensate) This means antisyphoning, Ex-chambers, remotes, and even Stabilizers cannot effect what happens inside the valve to the rapidly decompressing Co2 unless you run less pressure to the valve like a classic valve (350psi) giving the Co2 less decompression to the dump chamber. Then you easily get shootdown again and the xvalve works like crud and you're shooting a $250 classic valve again.

Long story short...You can shoot co2 through an xvalve. It will work and will fire paintballs just as nicely. But If you fire more than 1-2 shots a second, the mag just gets too cold too fast and starts tearing up all the moving orings. I have seen a stock class xvalve mag that ran co2 just fine, but then it was only shooting in stock class very slowly. I used to shoot my older xvalve with Co2 (very very slowly) just to fool around with in the back yard when I had no air. But it would still ocasionally freeze up shooting like 1-2 bps.


Attached File  X_Valve_Exploded.jpg (71.15K)
Number of downloads: 34

The X-valve expoloded (It wasent my fault i swear)

This post has been edited by cyrus-the-virus: 01 August 2006 - 12:08 AM

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#50 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 01:40 AM

New stuff added about the RT and X Valves. Now thanks to Cyrus and the info he gained from Pneumagger, I understand how the Reactive elements of the trigger work (why they are reactive), and have tryed to simplify it, and also understand exactly why you cannot use CO2 in either one, no matter how much liquid CO2 protection you have. Thanks a million Cyrus!

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#51 User is offline   cyrus-the-virus 

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:45 AM

W00T
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#52 User is offline   MuKen 

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 06:54 PM

Great FAQ. Now, sorry if this is a stupid question, but I just want to make sure. What you are saying is that if I regulate the pressure going into the X-Valve to low pressure, then it will basically function like a classic valve, and take CO2 and just not have the awesome ROF it had before?

Basically, what I want to know, is if I want to have the option of running CO2, I do not need to buy a classic valve to swap in, I just need to use a LP regulator? And of course deal with shootdown and all that.
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#53 User is offline   WardenWolf 

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 08:01 PM

No, no, no. The X-Valve, Retro Valve, and RT Valve can never take CO2. And Automags love high pressure. They work better around 900-950 PSI. What he means when he says it works like the old valve is that the trigger loses reactivity at low pressure. The old valve did not kick back the trigger very much, and an X-Valve operating at low pressure has low kickback.

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#54 User is offline   MuKen 

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Posted 30 September 2006 - 02:17 PM

Ah, I see. Thanks!
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#55 User is offline   sam5992 

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 08:54 AM

awsome psot. it was really helpful. You should try to put in a section on pneumags though. Great Job
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#56 User is offline   NinjaoftheNight79 

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Posted 21 October 2006 - 11:18 PM

View PostWardenWolf, on Sep 29 2006, 10:01 PM, said:

No, no, no. The X-Valve, Retro Valve, and RT Valve can never take CO2. And Automags love high pressure. They work better around 900-950 PSI. What he means when he says it works like the old valve is that the trigger loses reactivity at low pressure. The old valve did not kick back the trigger very much, and an X-Valve operating at low pressure has low kickback.


Thanks for getting that for me. Its been a while since I have been around :rolleyes: .

View Postsam5992, on Oct 11 2006, 10:54 AM, said:

awsome psot. it was really helpful. You should try to put in a section on pneumags though. Great Job


Your welcome. I have put pneumags one here before, but since its kinda hard to cover it all, I would rather someone make a whole new post.

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#57 User is offline   Masta G 

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Posted 08 November 2006 - 12:57 PM

i need to know something

how exactly do u fire a tac-one fast

can u walk it?

or does it work like the response trigger on a tippmann

i know if u add the ult u should be able to walk but im not sure

please answer only if uve used a tac-one with or w/o the ult
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#58 User is offline   MuKen 

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Posted 09 November 2006 - 07:18 PM

I've read about people walking the ULT, but I can't do it. It's still a little too heavy for that. Still, it's lighter than a normal mech trigger by a significant amount, so you can shoot pretty fast just pulling it normally. Honestly, though, I think the stock RT is faster whether you are just shooting or riding the bounce.

Still, though, the ULT is more comfortable, IMO.
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#59 User is offline   Masta G 

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 12:53 PM

does it still bounce with the ult?

i really wana know cause i play speed ball along with woods ball and id really like to kno what to expect

if uve measured ur bps let me know how fast u got with either goin off bounce or with ult

and just to clarify, the "Reactive Trigger" works the same as the Tippmann "Response Trigger" right?
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#60 User is offline   MuKen 

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 03:29 PM

No, the ULT eliminates bounce. Although you can bring it back by putting in too many shims.
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