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"Coexist" Bumper Stickers

#136 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 08:05 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

I was gonna semantics-card you, but then I realized you said Islamic. They don't have to be Islamic. The ones we've fought so far happen to be.... but they don't have to be.


Let me know when you see Hindu Jihadists, Jewish Jihadists, Christian Jihadists, Buddhist Jihadists, or any other Jihadist besides Islamic.

Although, since you may note it, there are other potential threats coming from some nations, but they are neither jihadists nor terrorists as a whole.
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#137 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 14 June 2010 - 09:26 PM

Don't forget the Methodists. :P

@ MDK

Unfortunately, my busy, busy schedule today only left me time for the preceding scintillating satire. :P

Anyway, just bear with me for the replies over the next few days, please. I am in the middle of a massive construction project right now and my computer time is quite limited. One quick point (which, incidentally Thalion did take point on, but I don't believe you ever replied to):

Quote

Is that, like, a rhetorical question?


It was more a point. As we all know from the days of TDF, some atheists were rather fond of making the assertion that the actions of Christians actually was the true and correct version of Christianity. For instance, every day, somewhere a "Christian" man commits a decidedly un-Christian act: say, murder. This, despite the Commandment that "Thou shalt not murder." (Going by original Hebrew.)

Ergo, since a Christian murders, Christianity condones murder.

Going by Scripture, we know this to be a fallacy as I have demonstrated.

Let's say that tomorrow, all Americans decided to act as if the speed limit on every road was 65 miles per hour, rather than the designated speed limits. Does that mean that all speed limits are indeed 65 mph because people simply decide to act that way? Of course not. It simply means that no one follows the rules.

So it is with Islam. Just because 1.2 billion Muslims decided not to don the suicide vest and embrace jihad does not mean that Islamic scripture does not exhort Muslims to jihad. It simply means that, for whatever reason, that day (and any other day) Muslims simply don't feel like blowing themselves up or firing an RPG at a helicopter.

Historically and from a scriptural and Shari'a legal perspective, jihad is a central tenet of Islam. You have yet to disprove that basic point from a theological perspective. And my overarching point on that matter is that since you can't, you can talk jihadists down, and since you can't talk them down, there is no way to stop Islamic revivalism from lapsing into ever greater and violent jihad. Only if Muslims decide, for whatever reason (and arguably, as many have been doing) to completely ignore key precepts and commands of Islam, will jihad abate. Even then, it will never end, for in a pool of 1.2 billion souls, a minority is still a very large number to be reckoned with.

This post has been edited by Ashrak: 14 June 2010 - 09:39 PM

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#138 User is offline   Veritech Squad 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:14 PM

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

I was gonna semantics-card you, but then I realized you said Islamic. They don't have to be Islamic. The ones we've fought so far happen to be.... but they don't have to be.


Let me know when you see Hindu Jihadists, Jewish Jihadists, Christian Jihadists, Buddhist Jihadists, or any other Jihadist besides Islamic.

Although, since you may note it, there are other potential threats coming from some nations, but they are neither jihadists nor terrorists as a whole.

While I'm on your side, I'm gonna throw a bone out for the dogs.

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#139 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:25 PM

See, but it's almost like you're *deliberately* twist words there. The actions of ________ don't necessarily indicate the true and correct version of _______. That's not scriptural verbage, that's logic, and it applies to Muslims just as much as it does to Christians and Atheists.

So Mohammad was a warrior -- Jesus was a carpenter and you don't see every Christian walking around with a hammer and nails. Jihad is written in Islam -- speaking in tongues and casting out demons is written in the Christian bible. Spiritual leaders today use Islam to condone war.... spiritual leaders a few centuries ago used Christianity to the same end. Christianity today is not violent, and there's no reason to believe that Islam tomorrow will be incapable of making the same shift. None. As evidence of this, i present you -- again -- with the increasingly repetitive example of hundreds of millions of civilized muslim people the world over. You mean to tell me that the insanely-vast majority are wrong, and the extremists (and casual outside observers) are the only ones practicing true religion? Frankly you're going to need more than a handful of passages to convince me of that -- you're basically going to need a graduate degree in theology to have any sort of reliable opinion on that. Which, even as I'm saying it, sounds unfair -- you've read ten times as much Quran as I have. But I'm not going to get into a verse-quoting war with you. I'll tell you what I will do, though. I've come upon some unexpected free time with a somewhat-lighter training schedule for the next couple of weeks, and I've got a Quran app on my iPhone. Pick a book.
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#140 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 03:33 PM

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

I was gonna semantics-card you, but then I realized you said Islamic. They don't have to be Islamic. The ones we've fought so far happen to be.... but they don't have to be.


Let me know when you see Hindu Jihadists, Jewish Jihadists, Christian Jihadists, Buddhist Jihadists, or any other Jihadist besides Islamic.

Although, since you may note it, there are other potential threats coming from some nations, but they are neither jihadists nor terrorists as a whole.

I shouldn't skip this.

Hindu Jihadists
Jewish Jihadists
Christian Jihadists
Buddhist Jihadists
And one other Jihadist besides Islamic.

People of all walks of life and all religious beliefs are capable of believing something enough to fight for it. Some are simply better equipped than others.
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#141 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 07:36 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 15 2010, 06:33 PM, said:

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 08:05 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

I was gonna semantics-card you, but then I realized you said Islamic. They don't have to be Islamic. The ones we've fought so far happen to be.... but they don't have to be.


Let me know when you see Hindu Jihadists, Jewish Jihadists, Christian Jihadists, Buddhist Jihadists, or any other Jihadist besides Islamic.

Although, since you may note it, there are other potential threats coming from some nations, but they are neither jihadists nor terrorists as a whole.

I shouldn't skip this.

Hindu Jihadists
Jewish Jihadists
Christian Jihadists
Buddhist Jihadists
And one other Jihadist besides Islamic.

People of all walks of life and all religious beliefs are capable of believing something enough to fight for it. Some are simply better equipped than others.


One problem with that argument.

One of the principle precepts of Christianity, Judaism, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and the Environmentalist movement IS NOT MANDATORY CONVERSION, SUBJUGATION, OR DEATH OF THE INFIDELS BY MEANS OF HOLY WAR. Point out to me where in the Bible, the Torah, the Ten Sephirot of Kabbalah, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Puranas, the Sutras, the Vinaya, the Abhidharma, the Eight Pillars (Taoism), or any other major religion that preaches and I quote . . .

Quote

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.


Quote

Excerpt K 4:074-077
Set 15, Count 38-41

[4.74] Therefore let those fight in the way of Allah, who sell this world's life for the hereafter; and whoever fights in the way of Allah, then be he slain or be he victorious, We shall grant him a mighty reward. [4.75] ...fight in the way of Allah... [4.76] Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Satan. Fight therefore against the friends of the Satan... [4.77] ...when fighting is prescribed for them...Our Lord! why hast Thou ordained fighting for us?...


Quote

Excerpt K 4:089-091
Set 17, Count 43-45

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...


Quote

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62

...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.


Oh HERE is one of my favorites. You see, you must kill the unbelievers and then pillage them. And 1/5 of that loot is for Allah.

Quote

Excerpt K 8:039-040
Set 30, Count 66-75

[8.39] Shakir: ...fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah... [8.40] Yusuf Ali: If they [unbelievers] refuse [to stop fighting], be sure that God is your Protector...[8.41] Shakir: ...whatever thing you gain, a fifth of it is for Allah and for the Apostle...the day on which the two parties met.


Back to an earlier point.

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 13 2010, 01:01 AM, said:

So we have five things.... Allah (faith), Salah (prayer), Zakah (charity), Hajj (devotion), Ramadhan (sacrifice).



We don't argue that those are not precepts of Islam. But, by verse we have provided in great length and number, so is Jihad. Slaying, enslaving, or forcing conversion on the Infidel IS a major precept of the religion, again which he have proved at length with script from the Qu'ran itself, and therefore it is not a religion of Peace as so many claim. A pillar of their religion of subjugation, and therefore, back to the original topic, coexistence is not possible with true fundamentalist Muslims.

Edit: I suddenly realize how Ash must feel sometimes.

This post has been edited by PistolWhipped: 15 June 2010 - 07:37 PM

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#142 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:08 PM

I think we should stop and pause for a second, and ask ourselves "Isn't refuting the idea of Coexisting simply because 'well thats not how the world works' only contributing to the impossibility of coexisting?"
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#143 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:22 PM

View Postike123, on Jun 15 2010, 08:08 PM, said:

I think we should stop and pause for a second, and ask ourselves "Isn't refuting the idea of Coexisting simply because 'well thats not how the world works' only contributing to the impossibility of coexisting?"

To add, "We're coexisting just fine, but THOSE poop shooterS OVER THERE FRAGING BLOW, LET'S KILL THEM ALL" ain't helping either....

Quote

We don't argue that those are not precepts of Islam. But, by verse we have provided in great length and number, so is Jihad. Slaying, enslaving, or forcing conversion on the Infidel IS a major precept of the religion, again which he have proved at length with script from the Qu'ran itself, and therefore it is not a religion of Peace as so many claim. A pillar of their religion of subjugation, and therefore, back to the original topic, coexistence is not possible with true fundamentalist Muslims.

Well, no, there are five pillars and they're the ones I quoted for you.

Look, I know Ash has done more research than I have. That's why I'm not getting into a dishonest scripture-quoting war with him -- he's more knowledgeable about the verbage than me. I think I'm being more fair about the population, though, and I think the population of Islam knows more about Islam than any of us. Anyway I've offered (and now reiterated) that I'll read, in full, any book of the Quran you think I oughta read to educate myself. That's fair, isn't it? I don't see anybody from your side offering to do any research on Pakistani politics, so frankly I think I'm the one doing all the work here, kindly cut me some slack.
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#144 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:23 PM

View Postike123, on Jun 15 2010, 11:08 PM, said:

I think we should stop and pause for a second, and ask ourselves "Isn't refuting the idea of Coexisting simply because 'well thats not how the world works' only contributing to the impossibility of coexisting?"


Isn't refuting how the world works simply because people want to think that every person of every ideology can peacefully coexist like sticking your head in the sand and pretending the problem is gone just because you don't wanna see it.

And I'm all for coexistence. Though I realize it won't always be peaceful. I can exist at the same time as the terrorist being bombed by a UAV and be perfectly fine with that.
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#145 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 08:57 PM

View PostPistolWhipped, on Jun 15 2010, 08:23 PM, said:

View Postike123, on Jun 15 2010, 11:08 PM, said:

I think we should stop and pause for a second, and ask ourselves "Isn't refuting the idea of Coexisting simply because 'well thats not how the world works' only contributing to the impossibility of coexisting?"


Isn't refuting how the world works simply because people want to think that every person of every ideology can peacefully coexist like sticking your head in the sand and pretending the problem is gone just because you don't wanna see it.

And I'm all for coexistence. Though I realize it won't always be peaceful. I can exist at the same time as the terrorist being bombed by a UAV and be perfectly fine with that.

You completely missed the point. Going "Oh its simply impossible and anyone who thinks differently is naive" only contributes to it's impossibility. If no one thought that way, then it wouldn't be that way. I hardly think we'd be a country right now if our founders simply went "Well boys, we might as well bend over and take it, that's how the world works."

In fact, "that's how the world works" is a pretty crappy excuse for everything.
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#146 User is offline   PistolWhipped 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:25 PM

Actually, I believe you may have missed mine. People can coexist. SOME ideologies can coexist. Everything is not always compatible with everything. It simply isn't possible. There are thousands of examples for this.

Magnetism. Opposite poles attract, like poles repel. Like poles are not compatible.

Biology. Some cells will die when exposed to certain compounds. Others will thrive. Some animals will die when exposed to certain viruses. Some will be weakened. Some will be unaffected, and still others will form symbiosis. Some are compatible, some are not.

Human Social Interaction. Face it, there are people you dislike, and people you like. You aren't compatible with those you do not like. You are compatible with those you do like. If you like absolutely everyone you've ever met, you are dishonest and/or have a weak personality.

It has never occurred in hundreds of thousands of years of human history. A few decades of happy, feel-good rhetoric in the US is not going to undo ten thousand plus generations of social programming in the whole species. At this point, conflict is more a part of human DNA than the opposeable thumb. Even this discussion is a manifestation of conflict.

People need to get over the idea of everlasting peace. If it is possible, it will never occur in our lifetimes.

Why are people so keen on the idea of everyone always getting along with everyone?

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." ~Winston Churchill

This post has been edited by PistolWhipped: 15 June 2010 - 10:36 PM

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#147 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 10:39 PM

View PostPistolWhipped, on Jun 15 2010, 10:25 PM, said:

snip

If all we ever worked from was conventional wisdom, America would be a monarchy. You're a dumbass if you think progress is impossible simply because it hasn't happened yet.
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#148 User is offline   ike123 

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Posted 15 June 2010 - 11:18 PM

View PostPistolWhipped, on Jun 15 2010, 10:25 PM, said:

Actually, I believe you may have missed mine. People can coexist. SOME ideologies can coexist. Everything is not always compatible with everything. It simply isn't possible. There are thousands of examples for this.

Magnetism. Opposite poles attract, like poles repel. Like poles are not compatible.

Biology. Some cells will die when exposed to certain compounds. Others will thrive. Some animals will die when exposed to certain viruses. Some will be weakened. Some will be unaffected, and still others will form symbiosis. Some are compatible, some are not.

Human Social Interaction. Face it, there are people you dislike, and people you like. You aren't compatible with those you do not like. You are compatible with those you do like. If you like absolutely everyone you've ever met, you are dishonest and/or have a weak personality.

It has never occurred in hundreds of thousands of years of human history. A few decades of happy, feel-good rhetoric in the US is not going to undo ten thousand plus generations of social programming in the whole species. At this point, conflict is more a part of human DNA than the opposeable thumb. Even this discussion is a manifestation of conflict.

People need to get over the idea of everlasting peace. If it is possible, it will never occur in our lifetimes.

Why are people so keen on the idea of everyone always getting along with everyone?

"You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." ~Winston Churchill

Ah, but we aren't talking about magnets are we? We're talking about people, and we aren't as black and white.

Why can't ideologies coexist? Because they don't want to. Can a terrorist stop hating the US? Sure he can, if he wants to. There is no such thing as "impossible" when it comes to human interactions. You can cite all the examples you wish. It comes down to one or more parties simply didn't want to get along with another one. Will the world simply get up and want to? Who knows? Maybe one day it'll be like the hundreds of science fiction books, where aliens visit and we get along for the sake of humanity. We could also end the planet in a nuclear holocaust. I don't know about the future, and neither does anyone else.

But I do know that sitting around, stamping my foot and refusing to at least try and get along with others because "thats the way the world works" isn't going to accomplish that goal.

This post has been edited by ike123: 15 June 2010 - 11:19 PM

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Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:30 AM

View PostPistolWhipped, on Jun 14 2010, 02:02 PM, said:

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 14 2010, 04:24 PM, said:

Entertain yourself with this:
The beginning of your rant was name calling kid crap but I picked up on the libertarian free market stuff. Actually you are an American Libertarian because everywhere else in the world Libertarians are Anarchists. The American Libertarian Party has perversely twisted the messages of the free market into their laissez-faire capitalist agenda that will only benefit the privileged. The whole of the Anarchist movement is Socialist and far to the left. American Libertarians are a tiny minority compared to the Democratic Socialist movement worldwide.
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Actually, American Libertarians are not quite the picture you paint. That would be the Anarcho-Capitalist segment.

Now, since you seem so intent on arguing who wants what worldwide, and throwing out how perverse the American Libertarian movement is, allow me to point out a few things.

One, I don't give a pile of loose crap that the rest of the world (ie. meaning European nations, their former colonies, some Asian, and the former Soviet states) is leaning toward a Democratic Socialist system. Look at socialist societies and you will see that they have "perversely twisted the messages of "helping one's fellow man" into their socialistic agenda that will only benefit the privileged." To use your regurgitated rhetoric from Move-On.

Two, I STILL don't give a pile of loose crap that the rest of the world (ie. meaning European nations, and the former soviet states) is leaning toward a Democratic Socialist system. Because I do not live in those holes, I live in these United States. A nation FOUNDED on the principles of Liberty and Personal responsibility by *gasp* the original American Libertarians. Men that believed that the fruits of their toils shouldn't be taken by a bloated, unchecked government and distributed to whomever the government deemed deserved it. Yet many socialist principles entail precisely the concept. People whom believe that because one doesn't want to do the work to earn something, then they are somehow entitled to receive that benefit anyway, even if it has to be taken from another to do so. They mistake the concept of equality as "equal stuff" instead of "equal opportunity".

Three. If you find the idea of A nation of free people, founded by free people, being able to live free, then I implore you, move to FRAGing Russia or some crap. I hear it's a burgeoning Democratic Socialit area, if you ignore the whole mafia corruption issue. Definitely no evil capitalists there for you to rail against. Or the UK. I hear they're locking up veterans for turning is illicit weapons they find dumped in trash cans. Oh even better, why not go to China. Great place. I mean, Tienanmen Square was just a hoax pulled by us evil capitalists, surely China would be a haven for enlightened minds such as yourself.


What do you blame our economic crisis on currently? Obama and Carter making banks lend to poor people? That's what Rush Limbaugh keeps saying. I was wondering if you blame deregulation at all.

View PostMurderDeathKill, on Jun 14 2010, 01:33 PM, said:

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 14 2010, 01:24 PM, said:

Oh btw I am a Libertarian also LOL

And I'm a saggitarius.

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More in a moment.....

I do not wish to move on to defending or supporting a particular religion. I will stick with the Libertarian discussion.
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Posted 16 June 2010 - 01:41 AM

View PostThalion, on Jun 14 2010, 01:39 PM, said:

View PostTommy Towne, on Jun 14 2010, 03:24 PM, said:

The beginning of your rant was name calling kid crap but I picked up on the libertarian free market stuff. Actually you are an American Libertarian because everywhere else in the world Libertarians are Anarchists. The American Libertarian Party has perversely twisted the messages of the free market into their laissez-faire capitalist agenda that will only benefit the privileged. The whole of the Anarchist movement is Socialist and far to the left. American Libertarians are a tiny minority compared to the Democratic Socialist movement worldwide.


When one is an American, and refers to a "Libertarian" as a proper noun, it is reasonable to assume they mean an American-based Libertarian viewpoint.

And technically speaking, across the world "libertarian" can mean anything from extremely limited government to anarchism. Not really a surprise there. Terms like left/right, authoritarian/libertarian, etc. are all subjective to in relation to the speaker.

The other point I direct you to is the concept of ancap, or anarchist capitalism. You see, socialists do not have a monopoly on anarchism by any means (never mind that Tex never actually said he was in favor of anarchism)

I fail to see how "American Libertarians" in your words "twist the message of the free market" while socialists are an advocate of the free market.

The free market is simply a market with limited or no government regulations, ie capitalism. Socialism involves economic control from an outside party, government or otherwise.

Call yourself whatever you want, I already know what you are and what you think. You want the right to take what I have to give to someone else. Obviously, if I am successful, I must be somehow "privileged" and don't deserve it, even if I inherited a whopping $0.00 of it.


I actually agree with half of the American Libertarian Parties platform. I agree with legalizing drugs, pulling imperialist foreign bases home, and others I can't think of now but I don't agree with Laissez-faire free market capitalism, no public schools, no public health care, no welfare, etc. I see Laissez-faire capitalism as a wet dream for Mega multi-national corporations to control us even further. Who's job is it to keep these monsters in check if it's not the governments? Trade Unions? That would be the anarchist solution.
I am successful also in my career. I have devoted many years of hard work to get where I am. I am very well respected in my trade. I am not privileged and no anarchist or socialist would say I do not deserve my success. I guess I missed your last point besides you claiming to know what I think.
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