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Not Another gun debate... seriously, just some fact checking. Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Shalendar 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:42 PM

Topic rule: This will NOT become another debate. we've all pretty much argued our points of view in other topics.

I got these facts in an an email. i would like to find actual sources for them. if you find a source, quote the fact and post the link; i will edit all the sources into the original post.

facts:

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Date source: http://www.guncite.c...gcnazimyth.html (thanks Puz) the year 1938 is confirmed.


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China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

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Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

---- ------------- -------------

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

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Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

-----------------------------

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

------------------------------

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by their own Government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars. The first year results are now in:

List of 7 items:

Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent.

Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent.

Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent)!

In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not, and criminals still possess their guns!

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the ELDERLY. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort, and expense was expended in successfully ridding Australian society of guns. The Australian experience and the other historical facts above prove it.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN! SWITZERLAND 'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE
A RIFLE... SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!


Possible source for the whole article: http://www.kc3.com/e...ntrol_works.htm (thanks Puz)

This post has been edited by Shalendar: 16 May 2009 - 08:23 PM


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#2 User is offline   Kontract Killa 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:45 PM

yep.....im movin to Switzerland.
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#3 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:47 PM

Exclamation points and capitalized letters make you seem like a crazy..

I agree with you, but if I were on the fence your numbers dont mean a thing since most people dont like being yelled at...

This post has been edited by ghostinthewood: 16 May 2009 - 08:03 PM

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#4 User is offline   Puzuma 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:47 PM

Read: http://www.kc3.com/e...ntrol_works.htm
From the foot notes there you can find

http://www.guncite.c...gcnazimyth.html

Quote

Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Weimar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). The Weimar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic "law and order" position). Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young, and very fragile, democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot sustain its legitimacy. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in their choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded - the Nazis did not stage an armed coup.

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#5 User is offline   tubby ted 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:54 PM

Rounded Up? Exterminated? By who?
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#6 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

First off, I agree with the point being made.

Now, to devil's-advocate a little bit here, I'm not an expert in most of these areas but I can say for sure that the phrase "rounded up and executed" is being used quite liberally. In Russia, it was a matter of starvation from lack of infrastructure -- yes, some rounding-up-and-executing too, but not in the 20-millions range. The vast majority of those deaths were from Communism sucking as a form of government. Same goes for China -- that was one of Mao's Five Year Plans, and it worked out just great as you can see.... So, based on those two I'd call some of the others into question as well. Yes, the death counts are accurate, but attributing them to gun control is a bit of a stretch. This isn't meant to be debative -- it's a matter of history. Russia and China at least weren't like Nazi Germany, Cambodia, and Armenia -- straight-up genocide. Well, Russia had its elements of that too.... China wasn't, for sure. Russia you can go either way, I'd say leave it off the list though.

Uganda and Guatemala, I don't know much about. Guatemala's poor as BOINK anyway, I'd be surprised if they could AFFORD a genocide; Ugana I'm tempted to believe.



So long story short, I'd put my estimate at around 16-35 million people dead, where gun control was an influencing factor. 15 is the most conservative guess I can put out there -- it's also plenty. But hey, as long as Big Brother's got your back, it's not your problem.... right?
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#7 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

View Posttubby ted, on May 16 2009, 09:54 PM, said:

Rounded Up? Exterminated? By who?


In the above cases listed, typically the government or a faction thereof.
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#8 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:00 PM

View PostPuzuma, on May 16 2009, 08:47 PM, said:

http://www.guncite.c...gcnazimyth.html

Quote

Gun control, the Law on Firearms and Ammunition, was introduced to Germany in 1928 under the Weimar regime (there was no Right to Arms in the Constitution of 1919) in large part to disarm the nascent private armies, e.g. the Nazi SA (aka "the brownshirts"). The Weimar government was attempting to bring some stability to German society and politics (a classic "law and order" position). Violent extremist movements (of both the Left and Right) were actively attacking the young, and very fragile, democratic state. A government that cannot maintain some degree of public order cannot sustain its legitimacy. Nor was the German citizenry well grounded in Constitutional, republican government (as was evidenced in their choices at the ballot box). Gun control was not initiated at the behest or on behalf of the Nazis - it was in fact designed to keep them, or others of the same ilk, from executing a revolution against the lawful government. In the strictest sense, the law succeeded - the Nazis did not stage an armed coup.


Valkyrie, anyone?
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#9 User is offline   Shalendar 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:03 PM

@ghost: i didnt write that, i copied it from an email. read the beginning of the post.

@puz: thanks, ill read it over and add it to the OP

@mdk: sources??

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#10 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:05 PM

View PostShalendar, on May 16 2009, 09:03 PM, said:

@mdk: sources??

I dunno, college? I'll look it up, you can prolly wiki those eras in any of the countries I talked about and find out all you need to know. Will add sources shortly, sorry....


EDIT: Add in the fact that China was still in civil war between KMT and CCP during half the time listed -- I think the China numbers are being awful generous to the Chinese government. Can't prove it, naturally... but here's a timeline. Comrade Mao purged a few thousand people after the first five-year plan (I was off, btw, by a couple years, that one started in 1953) -- the KMT dissidents killed were in active and armed conflict with the Communist government, and had been for a loooong time. I'd chalk those numbers up as a loss.

This post has been edited by MurderDeathKill: 16 May 2009 - 08:13 PM

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#11 User is offline   ghostinthewood 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:13 PM

View PostShalendar, on May 16 2009, 08:03 PM, said:

@ghost: i didnt write that, i copied it from an email. read the beginning of the post.

I know, I thought you were using it for the base of something. Like a paper.

Ha, I have school taking up too much of my mind atm...

This post has been edited by ghostinthewood: 16 May 2009 - 08:14 PM

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#12 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:19 PM

View PostMurderDeathKill, on May 16 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Valkyrie, anyone?


I think he means the Nazis came to power without one, not that no Nazi party members attempted one.

Which is technically true... the Nazis did in fact win the election. The fact does remain that they exterminated 13 million unarmed Jews, dissidents, and others, which is the point of the document (gun free societies are at risk from government).
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#13 User is offline   MurderDeathKill 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:22 PM

View PostThalion, on May 16 2009, 09:19 PM, said:

View PostMurderDeathKill, on May 16 2009, 10:00 PM, said:

Valkyrie, anyone?


I think he means the Nazis came to power without one, not that no Nazi party members attempted one.

Which is technically true... the Nazis did in fact win the election. The fact does remain that they exterminated 13 million unarmed Jews, dissidents, and others, which is the point of the document (gun free societies are at risk from government).

Bingo. I never meant to dispute that -- the point of the article is spot-on, imo. This not being a debate thread though, I'm just trying to fact-check. I think the estimates are a little high... and I don't think that makes any difference whatsoever to the article's validity.
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#14 User is offline   Bobbjoe 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 08:58 PM

Don't you think that if the united states goverment wanted you dead, they'd find a way to kill you even if you had a gun?

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#15 User is offline   Ashrak 

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 09:26 PM

Don't you think that if Shalendar had wanted to start a gun debate, he would have asked?

Or did you not see this?

View PostShalendar, on May 16 2009, 10:42 PM, said:

Topic rule: This will NOT become another debate. we've all pretty much argued our points of view in other topics.

I got these facts in an an email. i would like to find actual sources for them. if you find a source, quote the fact and post the link; i will edit all the sources into the original post.

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