Special Ops Paintball: Simunition - Special Ops Paintball

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Simunition It's so much better than paintball. Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:34 PM

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This may not be the right place to say so, let me know if that's the case, but simulated ammunition is a million billion gazillion times better than paintball is or ever could be.

Massively more efficient, smoother operating, often lighter, more compact, more maneuverable, more effective, longer ranged more accurate weapons.

And it forever bums me out that we're not allowed to play with it.
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#2 User is offline   Cuy'val Dar  

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 08:07 AM

Did you have a cool experience that your going to share?
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#3 User is offline   Tenacious221 

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:49 PM

I'd totally be down to play with that stuff.

Just imagine the waiver.

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#4 User is offline   Lt.Col.Vortex 

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 08:01 PM

The real deal beats the hell out of pretend any day :) Actually i wouldn't mind playing with a few AR's or M4's....its not like they will hurt you anyways :) :) :) :) :) jk
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#5 User is offline   I.K.E. 

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 01:07 PM

Fatherless man. Why tempt us with that which we cannot have?

That does look pretty fantastic. Next Gen M.I.L.E.S. I guess. I played MILES gear once...
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#6 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:44 AM

"Did you have a cool experience that your going to share?"

Oh crap. I'm on my phone and for some reason it doesn't have an option for replying to specific posts. Is there an app for that?

Anyway, 'Cuy, any experience with sim rounds is by default cool! I got an opportunity to train at the Centrt for Anti-Terrorism and Navy Security Forces with some of this stuff and it was amazing. Basically just like the real thing except without dying/killing which, I understand, is no fun. So basically a lot of the adrenaline rush of combat, plus all of the fun of an action movie, except a gazillion times more fun 'cause you're not just watching, all of the awesome of real gear and professional level tactical operation/teamwork/tactics, and a hell of a lot more fun than paintball just because it works a gazillion times better in every way!

That's the experience. But if you wanted a specific story: my partner and I entered a space in what they called the "ship in a box" (a building on land constructed to simulate a shipboard environment) snd we found ourselves on a catwalk hanging about 20 feet above the floor of the space. There was a ladder going down to the bottom. At the bottom there are two doorways on the (just making up a direction here for your reference) North wall, one on either side of the space, each leading into a passage way that runs the length of the space we're in. While my partner is moving and I'm keeping an eye on those doors covering him I see a boot toe sticking out past the door frame. It's a goofball mistake any professional would never make, the opfor trainer is obviously just giving us a chance and making sure we're paying attention (it's literally our first combat simulation ever). Anyway, as per our breifing on the "scenario" this is a compliant boarding, we're not expecting armed resistance, so we don't just go straight to engaging the contact. First I attempt to make contact and assertain whether this guy is just a random crewmember who panicked and hid, or whatever, "Sir, stay where you are! Do not move!" and the boot disappears behind the wall. First thing we do is check the other doorway, just make sure he didn't run straight across to that one to shove AK around the corner at us. Nope. He doesn't show up there, and we just hear a door in the passageway open and slam. Alright then, if nothing else it's a chase! So we stack on the doorway where I saw him and dynamically enter the passageway. Clear. And we see the door he door about halfway down the passageway on the opposite wall. We move up and stack on it. My partner's on point, and just before he throws the handle to breach the space I tap him on the shoulder and stop him. I don't remember what exactly I said. I think it was just, "This way." Indicating forward (East). Now this guy, at the time had at least two ranks on me, and he listened, in fact he didn't hesitate to even question why or ask me to explain, he just noded, I took point, and off we went! And that's what I loved about being VBSS (the team we were on), all the typical day to day bs and politics of the less* combatant corners of the fleet go right out the window. Where a lot of other people a lot of other places (even on our ship) will discount your ideas ignor your suggestions and tell you to "shut up" because, "uhhhh... I outrank you!" That sh*t doesn't fly on the boarding team. Reason why is very simple, if you, the newest and lowest ranking member of the team and the ships whole crew say, "I don't think you should..." nobody on the team no matterr how high their rank even if they are the type, wants to cut you off and do things their way, because if the end of your sentence was gonna be "... walk through that door because I can see a tripline across it which is probably rigged to some kind of explosive booby trap." ...well then that dude just died because he didn't feel like listening to a subordinate's suggestions. And nobody wants to be that dude. Anywayyyyy... we're in the passageway way that runs East to West along the North side of the space we first entered we're stacked on the door we just heard our contact run through and slam (probably). Now we still don't know if this guy is enemy or if we're just chasing some paniced civilian, we're not expecting to find the enemy, but it occurs to me, whoever this dude is, he might be expecting us to come through this door, and being predictable is probably not in our best interest. So. I tell my parner this way, he nods, I take point. "This way" in this case being straight ahead (East) now at the East end of the passageway it turns 90* and runs North. We move up to and transition that corner, and find another door, in the West wall of the passageway. We stack on it and breach! On the inside there's a wall running East to West forming a corner right at the door we just breached, the wall goes almost all the way across the space but not quite, leaving it connected to the South half of the space where the first door we were about to breach is. I, being on point am moving straight down that wall, my partner is moving North along the East wall of the space (that's the wall that the door we just breached is in) he's clearing the fatal funnel and putting some distance between us so that if there's an enemy in the space they have to commit to one target and leave themselves vulnerable to the other, or even better yet, if they aren't formally trained and/or experienced, hesitate to commit to one target maybe shift back and forth trying to decide, fail to engage either effectively and leave themselves vulnerable to both. And at this point you may be asking where our contact is. Well, remember that wall that partially divides the space we're in, the one that I'm moving along?

The contact is right at the end of that wall, using it for cover, with a pistol drawn and held at the ready. But he's got two problems. First he's not taking cover from us, behind that wall. He's taking cover from the door we almost breached but didn't, which puts him on our side of the wall. And his pistol's not aimed at us. It's aimed at the other door that we didn't come through. His head turns towards me, and his eyes look like they're about to pop out of their sockets as my patner reaches the North wall of the space and turns to move along it in the same direction as me but on the other side of the room and I'm screaming, "DROP THE WEAPON! DO IT! DO IT NOW!" I'm sure he practically had to pick his jaw up off the floor before he tried to run got lit up by me and my partner as we concentrated fire on him from different angles on opposite sides of the space with our MK18 assault weapons!

So on my first combat sim ever, I took point of a team I was the lowest ranking member of, made the right call saving that team from stumbling into an ambush, and led that team to get a cold drop on a seasoned veteran operator who was pretty much hand picked from on high for the sole purpose of stomping us out (probably mostly because he underestimated us)... which he wound up doing sim after sim afterwards (he wasn't underestimating or going easy on us anymore) until we were a bloody, heavily bruised, welt riddled wad of almost as bad ass as he was.

I'm omitting a huge amount of specifics of exactly how we move together tactically, negotiate each space, and procedures for effectively clearing, and resisting a massive urge not to might I add, as that's really the fun stuff, but I'm not supposed to say, not that you couldn't probably look it up on the internet anyway, but still, I'm not supposed to.

Also the directions I'm using here are made up. The premise of this being on a ship, which can move around and change direction, means that within the ship N,S,E,W means nothing. So in my righting N actually means Forward
S=Aft
E=Port
W=Starboard

This post has been edited by Shipwreck!: 19 September 2012 - 03:54 AM

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#7 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:44 AM

"Tenacious221 15 September 2012 - 03:49 PM

I'd totally be down to play with that stuff.

Just imagine the waiver.

-Tenacious"

I cerainly am! As a matter of fact I remember the waiver. I didn't... technically... read it. But I did skim it and I distinctly recall something to the effect of, "Yadda yadda yadda, high risk training, something something, waive my rights to, blah blah blah, in the event of, something, serious injury, blah, and/or, yadda, death." And then the fine print started, I made a point of not reading that, and I shudder to think what might've been in it.

Probably something like, "In the event of my death or debilitating injury I hereby agree to commit (sacrifice) my first born or other next of kin to complete my enlistment obligation."

I guess it's kind of like the End User License Agreement (EULA) for your life!
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#8 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 04:50 AM

"Lt.Col.Vortex 15 September 2012 - 08:01 PM

The real deal beats the hell out of pretend any day Actually i wouldn't mind playing with a few AR's or M4's....its not like they will hurt you anyways jk"

This is as close to the real deal as it gets! And, actually, they won't! IF you slap a sim round conversion kit on them and wear your PPE... just make sure the barrel is blue before you let anyone shoot it at you... and don't forget to sign your High Risk Training Waivers!
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#9 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:08 AM

"I.K.E. 16 September 2012 - 01:07 PM

Fatherless man. Why tempt us with that which we cannot have?

That does look pretty fantastic. Next Gen M.I.L.E.S. I guess. I played MILES gear once..."

I'm sorry. But it's always in the back of my mind anyway, if I have to suffer, I promise I will drag you down with me! Well said by the way!

Uhhh... what's MILES? I'm not familiar with the acronym. We just called this simulated ammunition, simunition, or sim rounds.

It's an actual weapon, with the barrel changed out for a different calibur which is as close to the original as possible, but slightly smaller than any live rounds that are made. And then the sim round consists of a brass shell full of powder, just like the real deal, but instead of a lead core, copper metal jacketed slug in the end, it's a platic capsule, and in that capsule is a little ball of bar soap consistency marking material. This way it's physically impossible to chamber a real round in the weapon, eliminating the possibility of an accident, but when you pull the trigger the powder explodes, blows open the plastic capsule and slings out the marker way faster, straighter and further than any paintball!

And then the weapon operates (reloading, fire modes, rate of fire, weight, balance, "feel", etc.) Exactly like the real weapon you're going to be using in the field... because it IS the real weapon you're going to be using in the field!

It.
Is.
Amazing!
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#10 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 19 September 2012 - 05:09 AM

"I.K.E. 16 September 2012 - 01:07 PM

Fatherless man. Why tempt us with that which we cannot have?

That does look pretty fantastic. Next Gen M.I.L.E.S. I guess. I played MILES gear once..."

I'm sorry. But it's always in the back of my mind anyway, if I have to suffer, I promise I will drag you down with me! Well said by the way!

Uhhh... what's MILES? I'm not familiar with the acronym. We just called this simulated ammunition, simunition, or sim rounds.

It's an actual weapon, with the barrel changed out for a different calibur which is as close to the original as possible, but slightly smaller than any live rounds that are made. And then the sim round consists of a brass shell full of powder, just like the real deal, but instead of a lead core, copper metal jacketed slug in the end, it's a platic capsule, and in that capsule is a little ball of bar soap consistency marking material. This way it's physically impossible to chamber a real round in the weapon, eliminating the possibility of an accident, but when you pull the trigger the powder explodes, blows open the plastic capsule and slings out the marker way faster, straighter and further than any paintball!

And then the weapon operates (reloading, fire modes, rate of fire, weight, balance, "feel", etc.) Exactly like the real weapon you're going to be using in the field... because it IS the real weapon you're going to be using in the field!

It.
Is.
Amazing!
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#11 User is offline   I.K.E. 

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 05:39 PM

I don't know what MILES stands for either, though I could Google it, I guess.

Basically it is laser tag with real weapons. I played with M-16s. We were given a vest that was supposed to record hits, and it had a laser transmitter on the rifle. Then we ran around shooting blank cartridges at each other. It was really awesome.
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#12 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:29 PM

Oh right, laser guns! Those are alright, also better than paintball. But the drawback is only hits on laser recepters count, leaving a huge amount of what would be hits uncounted. With simulated amunition there's an actual projectile, actually being fired. So every time you get hit, you know it.
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#13 User is offline   Tommikka 

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 01:05 PM

Shipwreck!, on 19 September 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Oh crap. I'm on my phone and for some reason it doesn't have an option for replying to specific posts. Is there an app for that?

No app needed, you should just be able to use a browser normally on a phone as if you were on a computer and click the 'reply' for the thread.
This may not work if you get a 'mobile' version of the site, in which case you should be able to click for the 'full web version' etc

Shipwreck!, on 21 September 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Oh right, laser guns! Those are alright, also better than paintball. But the drawback is only hits on laser recepters count, leaving a huge amount of what would be hits uncounted. With simulated amunition there's an actual projectile, actually being fired. So every time you get hit, you know it.

MILES, simunition, blanks and even paintball are all tools that can be used in the training of armed services and law enforcement.


The advantage of paintball in training is that you get hit and feel it, and it is cheap compared to alternatives. You can use normal paintball guns or realistic style paintball guns. The disadvatage is that it is not 'training like you fight'

The advantage of simunition is that you can use your standard weapons, (with some modification to prevent errors between true ammunition and simunition) and (as long as you are using the right simunition) can shoot your OPFOR. Like training with paintball but nearer to 'train as you fight'
The disadvantage is it is still not equivalent to real ammunition and does not have the range etc.
Other forms of simunution are available, e.g. lethal simunition that does not have the penertrating power of real ammunition. Such as for live ranges where there could be someone on the other side

Blank ammunition lets you shoot your own weapon (With modifications for safety, to prevent loading with live ammunition and depending on the type of blank to also prevent crimped shell fragments hitting people)
Before blank ammunition systems were brought in with different magazines etc and when the blank had the same dimensions of live ammunition there was also the risk of mixing blanks and live ammunition and shooting through. Blank firing adaptors (BFAs) were in place to also stop the round. (It would mess your barrel, but not kill your buddy)
The advantage of blank ammunition is you get the real noise of battle, the problem is that you don't know what would have hit. Its the same as going around and saying 'bang bang, you're dead'

The real advantage of MILES is you can use your standard weapons, keep using blanks and recreate the noise of battle, plus have the appropriate range of ammunition, and program the MILES system for different weapon types.
The disadvantage is the laser must hit the receiver. However this is similar to real life, some body hits have less impact then others. You get various MILES rigs on belts, vests, helmets, vehicles etc.

MILES

The ultimate in 'train as you fight' is to use live ammunition. But there are disadvantges to shooting each other in training with live ammunition. So you train on classic ranges, or specialist ranges such as CQB live fire facilites.
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#14 User is offline   IrishMack 

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 02:07 PM

I don't think anyone could ever argue that paintball is better than this...if I ever got the chance to play with those I sure as hell would.
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#15 User is offline   Shipwreck! 

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Posted 25 September 2012 - 10:24 PM

Tommikka, on 25 September 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Shipwreck!, on 19 September 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Oh crap. I'm on my phone and for some reason it doesn't have an option for replying to specific posts. Is there an app for that?

No app needed, you should just be able to use a browser normally on a phone as if you were on a computer and click the 'reply' for the thread.
This may not work if you get a 'mobile' version of the site, in which case you should be able to click for the 'full web version' etc

Shipwreck!, on 21 September 2012 - 03:29 AM, said:

Oh right, laser guns! Those are alright, also better than paintball. But the drawback is only hits on laser recepters count, leaving a huge amount of what would be hits uncounted. With simulated amunition there's an actual projectile, actually being fired. So every time you get hit, you know it.

MILES, simunition, blanks and even paintball are all tools that can be used in the training of armed services and law enforcement.


The advantage of paintball in training is that you get hit and feel it, and it is cheap compared to alternatives. You can use normal paintball guns or realistic style paintball guns. The disadvatage is that it is not 'training like you fight'

The advantage of simunition is that you can use your standard weapons, (with some modification to prevent errors between true ammunition and simunition) and (as long as you are using the right simunition) can shoot your OPFOR. Like training with paintball but nearer to 'train as you fight'
The disadvantage is it is still not equivalent to real ammunition and does not have the range etc.
Other forms of simunution are available, e.g. lethal simunition that does not have the penertrating power of real ammunition. Such as for live ranges where there could be someone on the other side

Blank ammunition lets you shoot your own weapon (With modifications for safety, to prevent loading with live ammunition and depending on the type of blank to also prevent crimped shell fragments hitting people)
Before blank ammunition systems were brought in with different magazines etc and when the blank had the same dimensions of live ammunition there was also the risk of mixing blanks and live ammunition and shooting through. Blank firing adaptors (BFAs) were in place to also stop the round. (It would mess your barrel, but not kill your buddy)
The advantage of blank ammunition is you get the real noise of battle, the problem is that you don't know what would have hit. Its the same as going around and saying 'bang bang, you're dead'

The real advantage of MILES is you can use your standard weapons, keep using blanks and recreate the noise of battle, plus have the appropriate range of ammunition, and program the MILES system for different weapon types.
The disadvantage is the laser must hit the receiver. However this is similar to real life, some body hits have less impact then others. You get various MILES rigs on belts, vests, helmets, vehicles etc.

MILES

The ultimate in 'train as you fight' is to use live ammunition. But there are disadvantges to shooting each other in training with live ammunition. So you train on classic ranges, or specialist ranges such as CQB live fire facilites.


I realized on the mobile site you can click each post to reply to it.

The only things paintball has an advantage over in training are red gun training, non-firing training aids "bang, your'e dead" mostly just for tactical movement practice so you can get used to not muzzling the sh*t out of your team mates; and normal range training where there's no or severely limited ability to maneuver with your weapon. With red guns there's almost, if not actually, no value what-so-ever to any force on force elements of the training, and with live weapons on the range you can't even practice maneuvers, and there's no possibility of force on force training at all. That's the only way paintball is useful, it's one of few things you can go through a full range of individual maneuvers and squad based maneuvers/coordination in a force on force training environment. But since it's fail across the board for range, accuracy, similarity to real world weapons, function in general etc it's not particularly useful overall.

I'm neglecting considerations for costs. I was ground level, and as such give no "f"s how much my training costs, my life may depend on it, it better work, that's my only concern.

As far as the blank ammo without lasers goes, I f*cking hate "Bang, you're dead!". It's useless, stupid, juvenile and unprofessional, it's flat out embarrassing that any command even attempts force on force training without some kind of projectile or laser firing, training aid. There's no fing way to tell what's actually going on, who "shot first", who shot who, who would have hit, who would have missed... you know: ALL of the most important things- scratch that, all of the things that are important at all in determining who's dead, who's alive, which force won, which lost... you know: ALL of the things that are the whole point of force on force training in the first place. It inevitably degenerates into a gaggle of professional war fighters arguing like children over who got who. Literally all of the force on force training that I've participated in/and or witnessed that didn't involve some kind of firing training aid played out exactly like me and my cousin playing "War" in the backyard with sticks that we thought were shaped like guns: Everyone simultaneously: "Bang!" cut to everyone arguing: "I shot you!"
"No, I shot you first!"
"No you missed! I saw your gun was aimed slightly that way when you said 'bang', so it doesn't matter if you said it first, I got you!"
This I've literally heard almost line for line, both from myself as a child of nine, and a room full of actual adult (supposedly) military personnel. And why? Non firing training aids, used inappropriately for force on force training.
And then the instructors/observers jump in and automatically side with the team that's training over the opfor, just so that they can say, ok the fp team (or whatever) won, so they don't have to teach their people anything and run the drill again. Everybody just wants to sign off on this crap and go home early whether the team's ready or good enough or not and force on force training without firing training aids makes it entirely too easy for them to get away with it. And really with them it doesn't even matter because there's no way to TELL if the team is doing good enough.

When I was in the Navy we actually had a professor of psychology come on board while we were in port and teach a class for anyone who wanted to take it, and of course I did. One day there was a scheduling conflict where the room we were using for the class was also going to be used for a force protection drill. When I heard the announcement in the middle of class that the opfor was being called away to the room we were in I was mortified that this guy was going to see how the ship's crew trains for combat on a regular basis. Anyway, they interrupted our class for a few minutes and ran the drill and just as described above what was supposed to be a professional combat training exercise just degenerated into ridiculous shouting match and then the fp team was declared the winner by default and I just had to bury my head in my text book out of embarrassment at our civilian professor witnessing THIS is what we do for "training". Ugh. I'm just lucky to have had an opportunity to do some actually effective, actually professional grade training from time to time.

Blanks or red guns the only thing they're ever even remotely useful for is letting boots practice moving around in their squads, teams and elements and pointing out to them all the times they f up and allow their weapon to be pointed in an unsafe direction.

As for the whole assertion that only receptor hits counting with laser guns is ok because presumably some hits may not do as much damage and thus can be discounted, I'm afraid that's bunk. Any gun shot wound can kill and if you want to train well you have to get used to assuming worst case scenarios and preparing for them. "That doesn't count because it only hit your foot." doesn't apply to bullets and isn't going to help a fighter with a real gunshot wound, so if you want to train them well it better not apply in their training environment either. You get hit at all you're dead or otherwise incapacitated (worst case scenario), and you just can't train that well with lasers yet, so unfortunately they're just not as effective for illuminating what's actually going on as sim rounds, and then they're only going to be an acceptable option in training situations where the range of sim rounds just won't work.

Live fire training is the best for marksmanship training. Obviously you don't want to be teaching marksmanship with sim rounds, lasers or anything else that doesn't have EXACTLY the same ballistic characteristics of a bullet... or rather THE type of bullet that an individual's weapon will actually be firing in the field. But overall, marksmanship is only one tiny aspect of the full spectrum of skills that are required to make an effective combatant. Range training isn't the best training, it's only a small part of everything that's necessary. The rest is tactical movement, team co-ordination and maneuvers, effective use of cover (that's the one you NEED someone shooting back at you to get right) which most don't get a chance to do with live ammo at all, because obviously that's dangerous and only entrusted to people who already know how to do it EXTREMELY well from lots and lots of previous training without live ammo. Kill houses and things like that where such training are conducted are great, clearly much better than just a standard firing range where you just practice hitting a static target. But then even with that you don't get the experience of live targets that are moving tactically against you, maneuvering against you, and most importantly, shooting back at you. So even this type of tactical movement/squad maneuvers training isn't necessarily superior to force on force.

Life fire training isn't the pinnacle of combat training, it's just the best for learning marksmanship. But any good force on force training with a firing training aid is better overall in teaching that spectrum of skills that go beyond simple marksmanship. Both are necessary.

End rant.
"If they wanna be asinine about this, we'll just be asinine right back."
A5 Evolver!



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