Special Ops Paintball: debunking of myths - Special Ops Paintball

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debunking of myths how one would go about finding true sniper zen. Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#1 User is offline   weeebeep 

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 12:29 PM

today i noticed something. its something ive noticed before. but fore some reason it really tourqued me in the wrong direction today. that was, "you should try your own tricks first, see what works for you."

i would like to get this post up so that all those noobs dont waste their time trying to sit in one bush and kill half of the op-force.

first: the "try your own tricks first." is a strategie that is designed for the rabid individualist. it works great for the rabid individualist, but it doesnt do much to benefit the team. ie: if your going up against me, go ahead and hide in a bush that is on your teams strong side all day. i would love to pwn your team while you waste the man-power behind your own marker.... instead: you should try 3 or so tactics that your friends reccomend, and then, based on what a good tactic looks like, try your own. (maybe youll get the idea to NOT defend the strong side when it is totally un-nesessary.)

second: is that all flatlines/apex barrels are in-accurate. that is simply not true my friend. however, what is true, is that putting your flatline together RIGHT is much harder than fully utilizing your apex barrel. ie: the flatline has 3 different parts (98 atleast) that need to be lined up perfectly (acception: shroud). where as, the apex has 2 parts that line up naturaly! i have to say i have a flatline, and i wish i didnt. its a bear to clean, put on (correctly), line up, ect. where as the apex, only needs to be put on once, lines up perfectly, and CAN be adjusted on the field, thus making it more accurate. -note: if you have a flatline barrel, make sure its lined up nicely, or dont complain about it being in-accurate, please.

third: "(stock) tippmanns are loud." true, but people forget the silent "stock" in that sentace. there are scores of mods you can do after buying your parts. there are hundreds of mods you can do at home without buying any parts. out of all these mods, a handfull of them are usable to help silence your marker. there are mods out there (btw) that will cut 90% of your markers impact noise off. there are mods out there that will cut 50% of your pneumatic noise off. the most reliable i have used thus far is a light spring kit. the best was a rubber pad on the front of the rear bolt (hammer). all in all you can cut 75% of your markers noise (impact is the majority of the noise from tippmanns) off by simply doing a few mods. the same rules apply to a lot of markers, but people never apply those rules to tippmanns.

fourth: "weight is your enemy as a sniper." this is the most widely believed LIE i have ever heard. in example, if you know a 2lb scope will serve you better than a 8oz holo-sight, you damn well better get the 2lb scope! by the way, its not like having less weight will in itself be much of an advantage IF ANY. in speedball yes it helps to have a nice marker, and for woodsball the same rule does apply, but that does not mean that their aren't a plethora of other factors in woodsball. in example, everybody with the spec-ops sticker on them seems to hate sight rails. why? "because their heavy!" might i inform you that your standard 6in rail weighs less than 5 oz. so you might as well add that rail, that will allow you that vertical foregrip, and that flashlight, to the bottom of your marquer (it really helps trust me.) you might as well add that scope rail (wich is taboo in speedball) to the top of your marquer.

-4 part B: an extra 4 lbs on your marker isnt gonna slow you down at all! you can believe what you want, but 4 lbs isnt a cripling ammount of weight. i would like to take this opportunity to enlighten all of you who read this to the fact that ONLY UNDER EXTREEM CONDITIONS does extra weight affect your ability to run fast. in examply, the difference in straight line speed between 10 lbs and 20 lbs is far less than the difference in straight line speed between 80 and 160lbs of gear. (you know this to be the truth too). the difference in agility (how fast you dodge that log you alost tripped on) is immeasurably low between 10-20 lbs. as a matter of fact you cant even feel yourself being sufficiently hindered untill 35-45lbs (depending on the person).

-hint: this is simply because back in your school days you wore a 20lb backpack and walked/ran around in it all friggin day. your body knows that weight, and you can almost treat it as if it doesnt exist. also, if you evenly distribute the weight between your body, you can increase that weight exponentialy. this is because evenly distributed weight allows all your limbs to help bear the load, and so long as one leg doesnt outweigh the other, you can run just as fast with 2 pods on each leg as nothing on either leg. you can even try this at home. tape two watter bottles to your pants and run arround for a while, then empty the water bottles and try again. you wont notice a thing, and you have big watter bottles if you do. (note: if you actualy do try this, tape them to the back or the front of your legs, so they dont wiggle as you run down the hallway.)


i would like to dedicate this thread to myth debunking. thank you.
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#2 User is offline   Piller 

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 10:48 PM

Now I've heard from numerous testimonials, and from very reliable resources that Apex barrels get less accurate the higher you set it. Spinning something is liquid filled is widely accepted to be something bad for it's trajectory. Is your claim coming from personal experience, or some kind of test?

I agree somewhat with the weight issue. But it is really dependent on where the weight is located. Think of how fast you can run with no marker in your hands. Then put a 4 pound marker in your hands. It's not so much the weight being heavy that is slowing your down, but it not being balanced weight. 20 pounds on your back like in a backpack is a lot different than in your hands.
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#3 User is offline   Sheriff Matt 

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Posted 20 January 2008 - 11:26 PM

I don't really see many snipers using flatlines or apex barrels. If you're shooting at something that far away(which most snipers wont), you have a higher chance of missing, and therefore would need to shoot a greater amount of shots to give you better odds of hitting what you're aiming at..By the time you hit this person you were aiming at, whoever is around them would have more than enough time to fix your position.

Usually, as a sniper your targets are going to be well within range of a normal barrel(between 25-75 ft), and you're going to wait until you know you can hit them without having to fire more than 1 or 2 shots. This way you have less chances of being spotted, and you have more time to relocate(slowly, usually aren't going to be running) without being seen, so you can line up your next shot.

As far as gun weight is concerned..as a sniper you may have to remain prone or in a shooting stance for prolonged periods of time...if you've ever held your gun at ready for any length of time you'll know that it starts to get heavier by the minute...This is definitely where weight could be a huge factor. Of course using techniques like "bone on bone" and resting your gun on a hard surface for stability will lessen this, but it's still a good idea to keep it in mind.

I'm not sure why you'd want to carry a flashlight mounted on your sniper gun while you're playing...Unless you're playing at night...which probably isn't more than 10% of the time, so why add the extra weight if you're never going to use it?
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#4 User is offline   kl0wn 

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 12:34 PM

I've used both the Apex barrel and the Flatline barrel extensively and believe that a properly set up Flatline is better than an Apex. The Apex causes the ball to drop 1-2 feet before it straightens out and flys far down field. The Flatline has a much flatter trajectory.
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#5 User is offline   NOOBIEJUDGE 

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Posted 21 January 2008 - 02:55 PM

:happy: What I do is I shoot twice at the heads if it dosn't get them I send my team up and and they clear the rest of the bunker. :ghillie:
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#6 User is offline   weeebeep 

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:58 PM

View PostSheriff Matt, on Jan 21 2008, 02:26 AM, said:

I don't really see many snipers using flatlines or apex barrels. If you're shooting at something that far away(which most snipers wont), you have a higher chance of missing, and therefore would need to shoot a greater amount of shots to give you better odds of hitting what you're aiming at..By the time you hit this person you were aiming at, whoever is around them would have more than enough time to fix your position.

i simply meant that at standard sniper ranges a flatline can be more accurate, never did i say that you could pwn someone ten miles away.

Usually, as a sniper your targets are going to be well within range of a normal barrel(between 25-75 ft), and you're going to wait until you know you can hit them without having to fire more than 1 or 2 shots. This way you have less chances of being spotted, and you have more time to relocate(slowly, usually aren't going to be running) without being seen, so you can line up your next shot.

i simply said that at standard sniper ranges the flatline is easier to aim at people because it shoots in a straight line.

As far as gun weight is concerned..as a sniper you may have to remain prone or in a shooting stance for prolonged periods of time...if you've ever held your gun at ready for any length of time you'll know that it starts to get heavier by the minute...This is definitely where weight could be a huge factor. Of course using techniques like "bone on bone" and resting your gun on a hard surface for stability will lessen this, but it's still a good idea to keep it in mind.

if you have a proper sniper setup, holding the weight in position for long periods of time shouldnt be a problem. ever heard of a bipod? its what goes under your barrel so that your gun is kept level with minimum effort. they use these in the real military and im not gonna explain it to you because somehting as complex as that is (imho) impossible to explain to idiots.

I'm not sure why you'd want to carry a flashlight mounted on your sniper gun while you're playing...Unless you're playing at night...which probably isn't more than 10% of the time, so why add the extra weight if you're never going to use it?

seriously all i said was that if a thing helps you you shouldnt hesitate to it on because you lack the rails. i never said you should put a useless toy on your marker. also i said that the rails themselves weigh very little.



added in my little edits in italics. you should be able to comprehend most of this now. i hope your bigotry and ignorance come to an end some day.

best of wishes!
-weeebeep
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#7 User is offline   Sheriff Matt 

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Posted 23 January 2008 - 11:13 PM

View Postweeebeep, on Jan 23 2008, 07:58 PM, said:

View PostSheriff Matt, on Jan 21 2008, 02:26 AM, said:

I don't really see many snipers using flatlines or apex barrels. If you're shooting at something that far away(which most snipers wont), you have a higher chance of missing, and therefore would need to shoot a greater amount of shots to give you better odds of hitting what you're aiming at..By the time you hit this person you were aiming at, whoever is around them would have more than enough time to fix your position.

i simply meant that at standard sniper ranges a flatline can be more accurate, never did i say that you could pwn someone ten miles away.

Usually, as a sniper your targets are going to be well within range of a normal barrel(between 25-75 ft), and you're going to wait until you know you can hit them without having to fire more than 1 or 2 shots. This way you have less chances of being spotted, and you have more time to relocate(slowly, usually aren't going to be running) without being seen, so you can line up your next shot.

i simply said that at standard sniper ranges the flatline is easier to aim at people because it shoots in a straight line.

As far as gun weight is concerned..as a sniper you may have to remain prone or in a shooting stance for prolonged periods of time...if you've ever held your gun at ready for any length of time you'll know that it starts to get heavier by the minute...This is definitely where weight could be a huge factor. Of course using techniques like "bone on bone" and resting your gun on a hard surface for stability will lessen this, but it's still a good idea to keep it in mind.

if you have a proper sniper setup, holding the weight in position for long periods of time shouldnt be a problem. ever heard of a bipod? its what goes under your barrel so that your gun is kept level with minimum effort. they use these in the real military and im not gonna explain it to you because somehting as complex as that is (imho) impossible to explain to idiots.

I'm not sure why you'd want to carry a flashlight mounted on your sniper gun while you're playing...Unless you're playing at night...which probably isn't more than 10% of the time, so why add the extra weight if you're never going to use it?

seriously all i said was that if a thing helps you you shouldnt hesitate to it on because you lack the rails. i never said you should put a useless toy on your marker. also i said that the rails themselves weigh very little.



added in my little edits in italics. you should be able to comprehend most of this now. i hope your bigotry and ignorance come to an end some day.

best of wishes!
-weeebeep



Well I'm sorry if it came off as bigotry...but I'm not sure if name calling was...well called for. If you want the ball to fly straighter flatlines or Apex barrels have shown that they consistently don't offer any advantage other than longer ranges due to the backspin they put on the balls. The backspin may make them straight, but vertically, the trajectory can fluctuate, rendering the advantage useless as far as accuracy is concerned. The Apex barrels would, however, offer some advantage over the flatline barrel in this aspect simply because they are adjustable in the amount of spin that is placed on the ball.

I didn't really think about the bipod thing. That's a good idea. If you're lying prone most of the time, a bipod would help stabilize your shooting platform. Although, I hope I'm not missing all the extra features, what with my simple mind and all.

Sorry if I came off as a jerk. I didn't mean to. I was just offering my opinion on the matters stated in your post. I apologize if I stepped on any toes here.
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#8 User is offline   weeebeep 

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 02:15 PM

i never called you a name... lets start off with that. i hurled an insult, but i did not call anyone a name.

second, saying flatlines and apex barrels cannot be accurate is like saying the majority of mainstream culture worships Al Ron Hubbord. its ignorant and its simply not true. (i know you never said "cannot" but allow me to iluminate.)

as you may know the flatline barrel is very picky as to which paint it uses. as a matter of fact i have picked up some field paint once, and my flatline has never shot straighter. i have yet to find the brand name of said paint, however, wind on that day was average for a minnesota wooded environment, humidity was normal, sunlight, temperature, and all that type of stuf was also at a normal degree that day. the barrel used was the tippmann flatline barrel for 98 custom. i figgured i coulda easily got a 5 inch group at 75 yards. as a comparison, your average m16 is designed to get a 6 inch group at 100 yards (as the military decided that wounding the enemy was more valuable than killing them as 2 men have to carry the one off of the field and fix his wounds.)

as such, it is easily said that with the right paint, you can shoot a flatline barrel much more accuratley than a cheap straight barrel (aftermarket or otherwize). i would like to use this opportunity to tell everyone that another conclusion that could be drawn is that any type of barrel that puts spin on the paintball is much more picky in the type of paint it uses than a straight barrel.

-note: the same can be said with a firearm. any hunter will know that a faster barrel twist will stabilize a much larger bullet and as such the smaller grain bullet becomes less usefull. to the opposite, using a slower twist, a light weight bullet may cause much more damage as it de-stabilizes faster when hitting the target.
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#9 User is offline   Piller 

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 04:01 PM

Do you spin water balloons when you throw them? The ballistics of a paintball are far different than your average bullet. They're liquid filled and not a solid mass.

Get some videos of a 5 inch grouping at 75 yards! If you can do that, you would be beating the accuracy of a lot of bench rested gun and may even set a world record for the most accurate paintball gun.
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#10 User is offline   NOOBIEJUDGE 

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Posted 01 February 2008 - 09:03 PM

View PostPiller, on Feb 1 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

Do you spin water balloons when you throw them? The ballistics of a paintball are far different than your average bullet. They're liquid filled and not a solid mass.

Get some videos of a 5 inch grouping at 75 yards! If you can do that, you would be beating the accuracy of a lot of bench rested gun and may even set a world record for the most accurate paintball gun.

:( Very true :ghillie:
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Posted 06 February 2008 - 08:06 PM

View PostPiller, on Feb 1 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

Do you spin water balloons when you throw them? The ballistics of a paintball are far different than your average bullet. They're liquid filled and not a solid mass.

Get some videos of a 5 inch grouping at 75 yards! If you can do that, you would be beating the accuracy of a lot of bench rested gun and may even set a world record for the most accurate paintball gun.


AMEN!!
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#12 User is offline   Thalion 

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 08:19 PM

You want myths debunked? Ok...

View Postweeebeep, on Jan 20 2008, 01:29 PM, said:

second: is that all flatlines/apex barrels are in-accurate. that is simply not true my friend. however, what is true, is that putting your flatline together RIGHT is much harder than fully utilizing your apex barrel. ie: the flatline has 3 different parts (98 atleast) that need to be lined up perfectly (acception: shroud). where as, the apex has 2 parts that line up naturaly! i have to say i have a flatline, and i wish i didnt. its a bear to clean, put on (correctly), line up, ect. where as the apex, only needs to be put on once, lines up perfectly, and CAN be adjusted on the field, thus making it more accurate. -note: if you have a flatline barrel, make sure its lined up nicely, or dont complain about it being in-accurate, please.


Incorrect. I have an Apex on my PPS brass barrel, and I trade accuracy for distance/flat trajectory when I switch the Apex on. As already mentioned, paintballs aren't solid. Spinning a liquid-filled sphere makes the liquid move inside. If it's uneven (and it is), it will shift more than just a straight shot without spin.

The Flatline has acceptable accuracy when properly tuned and with a paint that makes it happy, but loses accuracy quickly with poor tuning. It is never exceedingly accurate.

Quote

third: "(stock) tippmanns are loud." true, but people forget the silent "stock" in that sentace. there are scores of mods you can do after buying your parts. there are hundreds of mods you can do at home without buying any parts. out of all these mods, a handfull of them are usable to help silence your marker. there are mods out there (btw) that will cut 90% of your markers impact noise off. there are mods out there that will cut 50% of your pneumatic noise off. the most reliable i have used thus far is a light spring kit. the best was a rubber pad on the front of the rear bolt (hammer). all in all you can cut 75% of your markers noise (impact is the majority of the noise from tippmanns) off by simply doing a few mods. the same rules apply to a lot of markers, but people never apply those rules to tippmanns.


Tippmanns (and indeed, all blow backs) are inherently loud. It's going to happen, and even with your proposed solutions, an electropneumatic is still going to be far quieter.

Quote

fourth: "weight is your enemy as a sniper." this is the most widely believed LIE i have ever heard. in example, if you know a 2lb scope will serve you better than a 8oz holo-sight, you damn well better get the 2lb scope! by the way, its not like having less weight will in itself be much of an advantage IF ANY. in speedball yes it helps to have a nice marker, and for woodsball the same rule does apply, but that does not mean that their aren't a plethora of other factors in woodsball. in example, everybody with the spec-ops sticker on them seems to hate sight rails. why? "because their heavy!" might i inform you that your standard 6in rail weighs less than 5 oz. so you might as well add that rail, that will allow you that vertical foregrip, and that flashlight, to the bottom of your marquer (it really helps trust me.) you might as well add that scope rail (wich is taboo in speedball) to the top of your marquer.


The statement should read "unnecessary weight is your enemy." And that is true.

A "2lb scope" will be completely unnecessary in paintball. Oh, he's just a hater you may say. No. Why is it unnecessary, you may ask? Simply put, there is no paintball marker on earth that can shoot far enough to make a 2lb scope worth it. You're not going to be shooting anything past 200 feet. It's unneeded. And a flashlight? How is that going to help, especially when you're trying to retain your stealth?

Sounds like somebody is trying to justify the myths of stereotypical "sniper" guns.
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#13 User is offline   Marauder_Pilot 

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Posted 06 February 2008 - 08:29 PM

Take a look at wee's older posts. Wash, rinse, repeat yet again. Flatlines and Apexes inherently decrease accuracy because the backspin makes the balls much more vulnerable to crosswind, weight may not hurt you running around but it sure as hell does when trying to track a target and no matter how many foam bits and Rocket Cock-type affairs you put on your Tippmann, any EP out there will still be quieter.

Or were you going under the assumption that you can play a game by lying in a bush at the back longballing stationary targets and gaining a reputation by intimidating the uneducated newbies?
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#14 User is offline   Assasin2213 

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 11:12 AM

View PostMarauder_Pilot, on Feb 6 2008, 09:29 PM, said:

Flatlines and Apexes inherently decrease accuracy because the backspin makes the balls much more vulnerable to crosswind.


i am so glad that someone finally said this, they offer less accuracy and that is something that a sniper wants.
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#15 User is offline   Marine Scout Sniper 

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 04:31 PM

View PostThalion, on Feb 6 2008, 09:19 PM, said:

And a flashlight? How is that going to help, especially when you're trying to retain your stealth?



A friend of mine used his at dusk to get my attention. He wanted me to identify myself. (We have a rule that if a person is confused you must identify yourself to avoid friendly fire). I confirmed I was on his team while I was with a foe who had Comms trouble and he came over to my immediate location because I barrel-tagged the guy to end the game.

It does have it's useses. He added it mostly for the occasional night game so he could remove some stealth from the opposition. He said after He came over he was glad he bought it. I already knew where he was before he knew where I was anyway. I keep a firm eye on all my friendlies I work with.

He was pretty much outta optimum shooting range anyway. He wouldn't be worth engaging at that range, he would've needed to have been closer.

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