Special Ops Paintball: Guns in Iraq - Special Ops Paintball

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#106 User is offline   Deus Ex Machina 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:33 PM

View PostShock N. Awe, on Aug 4 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

View Post^!), on Aug 4 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

oh... and deus ex machina, the tanks in your sig are t-62's..... if you wanted to know (probably not, but whatever).
I think they're T-55s...bore evacuator is at the end of the gun tube.


They're T-55s.

Specifically, it's a Croatian T-55 used during the Croatian War of Independence.

My avatar is Serbian special police when the fighting was going on in Preševo Valley.
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#107 User is offline   ^!) 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:36 PM

View PostDeus Ex Machina, on Aug 4 2008, 07:33 PM, said:

View PostShock N. Awe, on Aug 4 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

View Post^!), on Aug 4 2008, 06:22 PM, said:

oh... and deus ex machina, the tanks in your sig are t-62's..... if you wanted to know (probably not, but whatever).
I think they're T-55s...bore evacuator is at the end of the gun tube.


They're T-55s.

Specifically, it's a Croatian T-55 used during the Croatian War of Independence.

My avatar is Serbian special police when the fighting was going on in Preševo Valley.



GARRR!

....i hate it when i get that stuff wrong. ...Good thing i'm a tank mech, and not a tank gunner. :laugh:
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#108 User is offline   Deus Ex Machina 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:42 PM

I think being a tank gunner would be better. It doesn't matter what tank it is, as long as it's either blowing up or in the process of being blown up.
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#109 User is offline   STAZ211 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 07:49 PM

View Postmtaylor, on Jul 30 2008, 11:32 PM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't smaller caliber equal more penetration?

Take it easy on the gun topics, man. It's very possible to over do it.



kinda. a bigger caliber will go through things, blasting a hole in a person or wall. though devistating, this injury is easier to contain. smaller caliber bullets hit and then, because of their size, tumble. when the bullet tumbles, it causes massive internal damage all throughout the area that was hit, making it harder to heal the injury. when asked about the smaller caliber size of the m16, one retired army soldier said "ive yet to meet someone who has been hit by an m16 and lived to tell about it".
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#110 User is offline   A-MAD07 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:12 PM

Im annoyed at the military for cancelling the xm8 program right now.
I know old news but i really liked the system.
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#111 User is offline   MaDuce 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:30 PM

View PostSTAZ211, on Aug 4 2008, 07:49 PM, said:

kinda. a bigger caliber will go through things, blasting a hole in a person or wall. though devistating, this injury is easier to contain. smaller caliber bullets hit and then, because of their size, tumble. when the bullet tumbles, it causes massive internal damage all throughout the area that was hit, making it harder to heal the injury. when asked about the smaller caliber size of the m16, one retired army soldier said "ive yet to meet someone who has been hit by an m16 and lived to tell about it".


I've read testimonials from soldiers who say they've had to hit their target 4, even 5 times before it dropped, when using standard military ball ammo.
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#112 User is offline   JOE MAC 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 08:41 PM

I really like the M4. I think it is a good weapon system that does the job well. Sure I enjoy a heavier caliber, but a lighter caliber means I can carry more ammo. Those pics you see of guys carrying stock M16s with iron sights are typically cooks, mechanics, and other support personnel that don't need the added equipment on a regular basis. I'm an infantryman I have an M4 with an ACOG, surefire flashlight, IR and visible laser sight, foregrip, and a 3 point sling. I feel like I am adequately armed for any situation. Plus, the M16/M4 is a reliable system if you take time to lube it up and clean it when you can. I have never had a huge problem with live ammo (and most of the stoppages are from bad magazines). Blanks on the other hand...

They just came out with a new digital sight for the M203 that we have as well. Makes the old leaf sights and quadrant sights obsolete.

The Army came out with a new sniper rifle that my unit was issued a couple months ago. The M110 SASS. Look it up. It is a decent weapon system and I like it, maybe not as much as the M24, but it is growing on me...

The one weapon I would like to change is the M9. 9mm isn't an effective enough of a man stopper and the layout of the safety and other features are a little awkward. I say we go back to the 1911 .45. Tried, true, and effective.

I feel adequately armed for my job. I don't feel like switching to a completely new weapon system just because. If it is not broke, don't fix it.
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#113 User is offline   FIRE WOLF 1 

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Post icon  Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:57 PM

Is it true that when the .50 browning first came out that the us soldiers were told not to use it on a person, because of its effects on not only the enemy hit by it but the affects of our soldiers seeing what it dose to the body. I know this sounds stupid to ask but an old war vet told me this. :panzer:
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#114 User is offline   Marine Scout Sniper 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:18 PM

To answer some things I know..


I have fired a .44 mag and a .45 ACP pistol. In battle I would prefer a .45 ACP I've also fired a .380 AUTO While accurate and has SOME pop it's still a pea-shooter to me.

A 7.62x39 mm Soviet round (like an AK round, same thing) kicks less than a 30-30 round. I fired an SKS recently and while some may dog it as being Russian I can tell you an SKS is very accurate as far as rifles of any type for any purpose aside from sniper rifles go.

.380 Auto and a .40 is as close as I would wanna get to a 9mm. The .40 was fun even bump firing it but a .45 ACP is one of the rounds for me. The recoil is smoother than you might think. A 175 grain high velocity .44Mag will light up the world and recoil like you won't believe. With a .44 mag the more grains in the bullet the more manageable the recoil seems to be even with high velocity rounds.


Smaller rounds vs. bigger rounds, physics and practical answers.

what you want is inertia. Penetration is mostly based on inertia. A smaller round has the potential to accelerate faster without more use of energy like a larger round.

Since the smaller round has less mass it doesn't store energy for greater distances this is why stopping power becomes limited after certain ranges are exceeded.

Since larger rounds have more mass it retains more energy. This increases inertia and effective distances as well as stopping power.

Because the larger rounds have more mass they require more energy in the form of powder. This also causes the casings to be larger.

Pistols do not have cartridges that are as long as rifle cartridges, this limits range.

Shotguns are still helpful in CQB engagements because of armor piercing rounds in 12 gauge. I can name one. A Lead Encased Steel Slug. These WILL stop you even from behind a wall. Ouch..

Two ways to increase velocity. Decrease grains in each round. Or add more powder. If you add more powder you may be looking at the need for a bottlenecked, or similar designed cartridge, or a longer cartridge. You will then have to redesign your weapons to hold the new cartridge.

If you decrease the grain count for each bullet, you also decrease it's inertia from stored energy and when you do that you may decrease it's stopping power.

This is why It's harder to stop a Semi than a Mazda, inertia. Hope this helps.

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#115 User is offline   Volker 

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 10:36 PM

View PostMarine Scout Sniper, on Aug 5 2008, 12:18 AM, said:

To answer some things I know..


I have fired a .44 mag and a .45 ACP pistol. In battle I would prefer a .45 ACP I've also fired a .380 AUTO While accurate and has SOME pop it's still a pea-shooter to me.

A 7.62x39 mm Soviet round (like an AK round, same thing) kicks less than a 30-30 round. I fired an SKS recently and while some may dog it as being Russian I can tell you an SKS is very accurate as far as rifles of any type for any purpose aside from sniper rifles go.

.380 Auto and a .40 is as close as I would wanna get to a 9mm. The .40 was fun even bump firing it but a .45 ACP is one of the rounds for me. The recoil is smoother than you might think. A 175 grain high velocity .44Mag will light up the world and recoil like you won't believe. With a .44 mag the more grains in the bullet the more manageable the recoil seems to be even with high velocity rounds.


Smaller rounds vs. bigger rounds, physics and practical answers.

what you want is inertia. Penetration is mostly based on inertia. A smaller round has the potential to accelerate faster without more use of energy like a larger round.

Since the smaller round has less mass it doesn't store energy for greater distances this is why stopping power becomes limited after certain ranges are exceeded.

Since larger rounds have more mass it retains more energy. This increases inertia and effective distances as well as stopping power.

Because the larger rounds have more mass they require more energy in the form of powder. This also causes the casings to be larger.

Pistols do not have cartridges that are as long as rifle cartridges, this limits range.

Shotguns are still helpful in CQB engagements because of armor piercing rounds in 12 gauge. I can name one. A Lead Encased Steel Slug. These WILL stop you even from behind a wall. Ouch..

Two ways to increase velocity. Decrease grains in each round. Or add more powder. If you add more powder you may be looking at the need for a bottlenecked, or similar designed cartridge, or a longer cartridge. You will then have to redesign your weapons to hold the new cartridge.

If you decrease the grain count for each bullet, you also decrease it's inertia from stored energy and when you do that you may decrease it's stopping power.

This is why It's harder to stop a Semi than a Mazda, inertia. Hope this helps.


Inertia is the wrong word to use for your argument

I can kick a soccerball farther than a bowlingball because the soccerball has less inertia than the bowlingball.
Inertia-Inertia is the resistance an object has to a change in its state of motion.

Momentum is a better word for your argument.


EDIT: Hmmm I guess you could actually argue Inertia would be the correct term because your talking about if something has more mass it is harder to slow down, apologies.

This post has been edited by Volker: 04 August 2008 - 10:41 PM

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#116 User is offline   GREEN GIANT 

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 01:44 AM

hey all you forgot about the 6.8 SPC 115 gr. it's a 5.56x45mm case made to a 270.cal they will fit in a m-16 mag and all that has to be
changed is the upper on the m4. I really like the m-16 family of weapons and have a real bushmaster M4A3 with a aimpoint ML2 it's just
fine for me as well as my M9 9mm
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#117 User is offline   STAZ211 

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 03:48 AM

View PostMaDuce, on Aug 4 2008, 11:30 PM, said:

View PostSTAZ211, on Aug 4 2008, 07:49 PM, said:

kinda. a bigger caliber will go through things, blasting a hole in a person or wall. though devistating, this injury is easier to contain. smaller caliber bullets hit and then, because of their size, tumble. when the bullet tumbles, it causes massive internal damage all throughout the area that was hit, making it harder to heal the injury. when asked about the smaller caliber size of the m16, one retired army soldier said "ive yet to meet someone who has been hit by an m16 and lived to tell about it".


I've read testimonials from soldiers who say they've had to hit their target 4, even 5 times before it dropped, when using standard military ball ammo.


ive heard that too, but i was just quoting something that i have recently heard. that aside, smaller caliber bullets do tumble and such.
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#118 User is offline   Brainshot 

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 04:06 AM

I'm totally with Joe Mac on all of that. I'm in Afghanistan right now, and he's right. The people who carry M-16's with iron sights are mostly support personnel. They don't NEED an M4 with all of that fancy stuff on it. Chances are they will never fire their weapon over here. AND, should they need to, the M-16 is quite adequate for the job. The 5.56 round is perfectly fine. If you hit someone, they're going to go down. You may not completely take them out of the fight (most likely you will), BUT, take this into account: if you are shooting at someone foolish enough to engage you, 99% of the time, you've got at least 5 other Joe's there with you shooting at the same thing. One way or the other, regardless of what weapons are used, and what size of bullet you're using, he's going down.

I can't disagree with Joe. I LOVE my M4. My setup is a little different, but will still get the same job done (it's all personal preference... and what your armorer has in stock). I have an M4, M68 Reflex Scope, M203 Grenade Launcher, and a 3 point sling. Again (from Joe Mac). If it's not broke, don't fix it!
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#119 User is offline   snipin'since88 

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 05:51 AM

View PostBrainshot, on Aug 5 2008, 04:06 AM, said:

I'm totally with Joe Mac on all of that. I'm in Afghanistan right now, and he's right. The people who carry M-16's with iron sights are mostly support personnel. They don't NEED an M4 with all of that fancy stuff on it. Chances are they will never fire their weapon over here. AND, should they need to, the M-16 is quite adequate for the job. The 5.56 round is perfectly fine. If you hit someone, they're going to go down. You may not completely take them out of the fight (most likely you will), BUT, take this into account: if you are shooting at someone foolish enough to engage you, 99% of the time, you've got at least 5 other Joe's there with you shooting at the same thing. One way or the other, regardless of what weapons are used, and what size of bullet you're using, he's going down.

I can't disagree with Joe. I LOVE my M4. My setup is a little different, but will still get the same job done (it's all personal preference... and what your armorer has in stock). I have an M4, M68 Reflex Scope, M203 Grenade Launcher, and a 3 point sling. Again (from Joe Mac). If it's not broke, don't fix it!



unless youre in the marines. in 03 most people had m16a2's, and a4's. very few marines had m4's.
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#120 User is offline   Brainshot 

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:56 AM

yeah good point. man, even most of the marines i see over here today still have m16's... although they're A-3 and A-4's with the works on them. nothing wrong with the M-16 though, it's a fine weapon.
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